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Knowing the "atheist," I can say that as a person of Christian faith, the conversations that we have had were insightful and positive.

While we disagree on issues of Christian faith, we can share our life's journey's. From those, we learn of one another. I consider it an honor to know Eric and to call him a friend.

Those that may dislike Eric because of his atheism should get to know him, on a level other than Christian faith. Getting to know someone on a human level can often make for much better friendships!

Shalom

"Those that may dislike Eric because of his atheism should get to know him, on a level other than Christian faith."

An interesting concept. Makes me wonder a little, you know? But even when discussing the topic of religion, I find a lot of enjoyment that many folks fail to see. Maybe there's a way that others can relate to people of different convictions without feeing threatened. Wouldn't that be fun?

All of the atheists that I know have very deep faith. They have a strong faith in humanity and its ability to do what is right; they have a faith that the world will continue to function just as it has for all these millenia. Their faith is just as strong, if not more so, than many of the christians that I know. Having faith is not something that only those of traditional religions have a monopoly on. Faith is a very deep and personal experience and can not be judged by others. The religion page is the perfect place to discuss faith no matter what its roots.

Atheists are people of faith, just not the christian faith. Religion is much larger than just the christian religion. I have very much enjoyed and learned from the columns written by various relgious leaders (we are all religious leaders when we dare to speak out concerning our beliefs).

Is it possible to consider oneself and atheist in one's way of living, but an agnostic as to the unknowable moments after the demise of life? If instead of faith in humanity and the power of positive thinking, could not doubt be the mainspring for one's quest in life? Since daily decisions hinge on one's philosophical perspective (or lack of one if living an unexamined life) and how that is put into practice, whether one calls it "faith" or "skepticism", the choice seems quite appropriate to publish in Nancy's area of the paper.

Some would even argue, with quite a bit of sociological and psychological reasoning (and perhapas one day soon genetic indicators) that predispositions to "faith" in one god or another, or one set of absolutes or another, is somewhat inherited and mostly a result of contingency: where you happened to be born and raised, your family's economic circumstances, etc.

"All of the atheists that I know have very deep faith. They have a strong faith in humanity and its ability to do what is right; they have a faith that the world will continue to function just as it has for all these millenia."

They'd have to be idiots to believe that. Isn't the whole point of atheism that reason, not faith, should orient one's worldview?

darryl,
i was curious how you would square your comment here, in light of what scripture says about believers being seperated from unbelievers ? see below :...................................

14 Don't team up with those who are unbelievers. How can goodness be a partner with wickedness? How can light live with darkness? 15 What harmony can there be between Christ and the Devil*? How can a believer be a partner with an unbeliever? 16 And what union can there be between God's temple and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God said: "I will live in them
and walk among them.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.*
17 Therefore, come out from them
and separate yourselves from them, says the Lord.
Don't touch their filthy things,
and I will welcome you.*
18And I will be your Father,
and you will be my sons and daughters,
ays the Lord Almighty.*"

what do you believe may be the consequence to those who do not adhere to this truth ?

"Don't team up with those who are unbelievers. How can goodness be a partner with wickedness?"

Hmph. This is one of the things that keeps people from living in peace with their fellow human beings, you know. The whole idea that "unbeliever" equals "evil" does nothing but feed prejudice and work against the very idea that you should love your neighbor.

Your text is a fine one to use if you want to justify your fear and active dislike of those who are different from you, but is that really the sort of thing that you'd want Christianity to be known for? I mean honestly, Buz... you are not making your religion look very attractive to those outside your church.

eric,
let's get this right from the beginning.....i don't give a hoot about making my (?) religion very attractive. first off it'd not my religion - as i suspect you know, Christ is the centerpiece of the faith. my job as a Christain does NOT entail making what i believe attractive...my responsibility is to spread the gospel message and the Holy Spirit will do the rest. as in your religion, your job is to spread your gospel of non belief and satan will then do his part.
you see unlike some others in these blogs, i actually believe the word of God (much of it i still don't have a clear understanding of, but that does not make it untrue to me, that is where my faith is the strongest, i.e. in my non understanding).
your pov is strictly humanist in nature and completely at odds with God and all His works. eric at very least i can say that i never confessed my belief in God and then grew so intelligent (thru lives experiences)that i figured out i was smarter than God and then denounced His name and His existence, i.e not tossed about by the waves. if you were my next door neighbor and i saw you or any of your family hungry, in danger or in need of help, i would assist you in those times but i would not partner up with you or befriend you as long as you renounced God...now i ask you does that statement sound like i am not living in peace and that i work against the idea of helping your neighbor....i can accomplish those things without partaking of your world and its denial of a sovereign God. your argument holds no merit. i am told that i must of necessity live In this world but i am not to PARTAKE of this world, i am called to be separate and to do my best to live at peace with people like you and i try to accomplish that. i suspect you would probably do the same for me and my family if the situation was reversed, which makes you a nice guy but nonetheless a hopelessly lost one.

"i don't give a hoot about making my (?) religion very attractive. first off it'd not my religion - as i suspect you know, Christ is the centerpiece of the faith"

Sound like you're saying, "If the religion I follow is ugly and hateful, it's not MY fault!"

When was the last time you read the New Testament? Even Paul, one of the most judgemental, retentive jerks in the whole Bible, knew that the best way to deal with the outsiders that aren't "saved" was to answer gently and with courtesy. Would you like my help in looking up the proof text for that?

"my responsibility is to spread the gospel message and the Holy Spirit will do the rest."

Hah! I think that what you're doing is trying to find a way to offend me and leaving your God to mend the damage you intentionally do. Best of luck, dude. You're about as good at "spreading the Gospel" as Fred Phelps. LOL!

Gospel = GOOD news

In relating to the Christian faith, the Good news was that God had made a way for the gap that separated humanity from God to be bridged. That "bridge" was/is Jesus the Christ.

That is the basic premise behind the "gospel/good news."

I am NOT like those wonderful followers of the law that would leave a wounded (unclean) person lying by the way to continue suffering. I choose to stop and help that one, not caring what touching the "unclean" one.

For me, that is fulfilling the second greatest commendment: "Love others as much as you love yourself." Matthew 22.39b (CEV)

I believe that there is a great deal of misinterpretation taking place in that "Don't team up with those who are unbelievers." text.

Teaming up is one thing, being friends is another. I am commanded by God to LOVE ALL people. Remember, each human is created in the image of God. So, with that in mind, there is "that of God in [everyone]." Also, remember, "The king will say to them, "Whenever you failed to help any of my people, no matter how unimportant they seemed, you failed to do it for me." Matthew 25.45 (CEV)

Seems pretty clear cut to me. The quotes I have posted are words that are attributed to Jesus the Christ. If there is a problem with them, take it up with the one who is reported to have spoken them.

Shalom

eric,
as usual you give yourself way to much credit....if you are offended then maybe something i've said rings true...you seems to think yourself important enough to me to warrant my attention to try specifically to offend you, you are wrong... the truth does have a way of tweaking ones conscience. you would be one of the last people i would want to help explain scriptures to me, that you don't even believe in. an avowed God hater such as yourself surely doesn't think that your opinion of me matters. you want the world and other readers of these blogs to believe that a Christian has no backbone and is supposed to kowtow to rants like yours without defending their faith, well you got it wrong again. you have other Christians here that are willingly supporting your irreverence to Almighty God, so you'd be well off to continue your dialogues with them. and if this sounds harsh and offends you, i suspect you'll get over it.
you consistently play both sides of the fence and you think you're clever and that no ones notices...such as first you call paul the most judgemental retentive jerk and then have the audacity to quote him to defend your pov....dude your logic fails. stick to subjects that you can more easily bamboozle the crowd with ! and if i have offended you it wasn't intentional, i'd suggest you work on getting thicker skin and quit letting simple minded Christians like me get under your skin !

"...if you are offended then maybe something i've said rings true"

And you give yourself too much credit as well. I specifically mentioned an attempt to offend me. If you wanted to do that, you failed. Mostly, your rationalization of your hostility is mildly amusing. Saying that you'd help me in time of trouble while at the same time loathing my mind is nothing but clumsy equivocation. I'd prefer you keep your assistance under orders to yourself, thanks.

Your proud proclamations of following God's orders ring hollow. It appears that you have an awful lot to learn about what "love" means. I wish you well in the journey to that discovery.

eric,
you can't grasp even the simplest of Christ teaching....hate the sin and love the sinner. i serve Christ well by following His lead. that's why i could help you and still hate your sin, but you cannot figure that out. and you are correct, i am on a journey and i make many mistakes along the way but i also gain much insight as well.
and i noticed you did not address my comment concerning playing both sides of the fence. hearing you quote scriptures is offensive to me, just as satan tried to quote scripture to Jesus, satan neither knew the power nor the truth of it, for in his effort to speak it to Jesus he misquoted it !
you and i are like sandpaper and wood, the result is always sawdust ! you mentioned that i was intentionally doing damage to , ...newsflash....
" And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
i believe it's time to move on, perhaps i will catch you on another blog.

darryl,
" I consider it an honor to know Eric and to call him a friend. "...........

Main Entry: 1hon·or
Pronunciation: 'ä-n&r
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Old French honor, from Latin honos, honor
1 a : good name or public esteem : REPUTATION b : a showing of usually merited respect : RECOGNITION
2 : PRIVILEGE
3 : a person of superior standing -- now used especially as a title for a holder of high office
4 : one whose worth brings respect or fame : CREDIT
6 : an evidence or symbol of distinction: as a : an exalted title or rank b (1) : BADGE, DECORATION
7 : CHASTITY, PURITY
8 a : a keen sense of ethical conduct : INTEGRITY b : one's word given as a guarantee of performance
synonyms HONOR, HOMAGE, REVERENCE, DEFERENCE mean respect and esteem shown to another. HONOR may apply to the recognition of one's right to great respect or to any expression of such recognition . HOMAGE adds the implication of accompanying praise . REVERENCE implies profound respect mingled with love, devotion, or awe . DEFERENCE implies a yielding or submitting to another's judgment or preference out of respect or reverence . synonym see in addition HONESTY

let me state that i am surprised that you consider eric a person you honor to know. you place him in an esteemed relationship to yourself, you consider him a person of SUPERIOR standing, he commands respect or fame, he has a keen sense of ethical conduct and integrity - this honor you show towards eric is synonyms with homage, reverence and deference.

this all seems strange coming from a believer in Christ ( in whom i suspect you share this same
honor with Christ ?? ). you make a play on words when you try to say that teaming up with someone is different than being friends with someone. perhaps i've given you too much credit, you've stated (if memory serves correctly) you have some type of theological degree or study under your belt which should aid you in discernment of the scriptures. let me point out that the word used in the N.T. greek is not "teaming up" ( that is an NLT translation of the original word ) it is heterozugeo (Strong's 2086):1) to come under an unequal or different yoke, to be unequally yoked
a) to have fellowship with one who is not an equal:

i would ask you is eric equal in his standing with God as you are ?
paul further says you should not be unequally yoked to UNBELIEVERS...the greek word is apistos :1) unfaithful, faithless, (not to be trusted, perfidious) 2) incredible
a) of things
3) unbelieving, incredulous
a) without trust (in God)
is eric without trust in God ?

then paul goes on to say the righteous should have no fellowship with the unrighteous. the word fellowship is metoche : 1) a sharing, communion, fellowship.
need i explain what is righteous vs. unrighteous - so paul says believers ( is this you ? ) should not
have fellowship with unbelievers (eric) and states that those who have light ( is that you ?? ) should have no communion with darkness (eric). the word 'communion' is koinonia and means : 1) fellowship, association, community, communion, joint participation, intercourse

a) the share which one has in anything, participation

b) intercourse, fellowship, intimacy

1) the right hand as a sign and pledge of fellowship
(in fulfilling the apostolic office)

c) a gift jointly contributed, a collection, a contribution, as exhibiting an embodiment and proof of fellowship.

so darryl are in you in fellowship or association with eric ? after all you are HONORED to call eric a FRIEND. if you answer yes to that last question, what does that say about your believe of the word in scripture and how are you honoring God when you a person of light (?) associate, honor and commune with darkness ?
Jesus task was to come into the world to minister light unto the unrighteous (which he did), but you will not find Him calling a person who intentionally chooses to reject God a friend ( as you have ). Jesus did however says those who were His he would no longer call servant, but friend.

you ended your post with this " Seems pretty clear cut to me. The quotes I have posted are words that are attributed to Jesus the Christ. If there is a problem with them, take it up with the one who is reported to have spoken them. "
you don't seems to have much conviction that these words were actually spoken by Jesus...you state they are words "attributed to Jesus the Christ" ?
and finally i know in the past you have stated you don't trust or believe paul's writtings have any value....so perhaps all i've stated is for nought ( as far as you are concerned ). if that is true then you will continue to commune and fellowship with darkness and be ignorant to how much God wants to bless those who are obedient to His word.

"hearing you quote scriptures is offensive to me"

I can understand that. Unfortunately, you'll most likely be offended this way in the future. I try to communicate with people, and in a religious forum, a lot of the communication will inevitably revolve around the texts that folks hold dear. C'est la vie.

"...just as satan tried to quote scripture to Jesus, satan neither knew the power nor the truth of it, for in his effort to speak it to Jesus he misquoted it!"

Heh. I think that today, a lot of folks would use the internet term "sock puppet" to describe Satan's role in the Bible, particularly in the passage you're referring to. Of course that is of no consequence here.

"you and i are like sandpaper and wood, the result is always sawdust!"

Yeah, I noticed that. That's too bad. Take it easy, sir.

A visiting Democratic Congresswoman (from Manhattan and Queens, no less) told the graduates of a small religiously-affiliated (loosely) private college here in Greensboro a wonderful little joke:

A bear is chasing an atheist in a forest. The atheist falls and the baer catches up. Just as the bear's claws are poised to do their worst, the atheist calls out to God, "Oh, God, please help me!"

God says, "Isn't it a bit late to be asking favors? You've doubted my existence for years. Why should I help you now?"

The atheist pauses, then reasons, "You are right; I don't desrve your help. I only ask you to change this bear into a good Christian."

"All right", God replies. "I will do that."

The bear instantly took his deadly claws down, and turned to one side, clasping his hairy paws together and said," Thank you, Father, for the bounty I am about to receive."

Thunderous laughter and applause.
The Congresswoman then exhorted the outgoing grads to go out "not be atheists".

The variation I heard had an atheist and a Christian, both chased by bears into separate trees. The atheist asked the god he suddenly believed in to change his bear into a Hindu (vegetarians, you know) and the Christian asks for his bear to be converted to a fellow Christian, with the results reported above.

"The Congresswoman then exhorted the outgoing grads to go out "not be atheists". "

Hmph. Wonder what it is about being an atheist that's so terrible?

"Main Entry: 1hon·or
Pronunciation: 'ä-n&r"

Darryl... I bet it'll be a long time before you use the word "honor" in connection with me again... at least in certain company. {;-)

" Hmph. Wonder what it is about being an atheist that's so terrible? ".................

by human standards you are most likely a good person/husband/father and if life ended with only that standard to be met you would do well.

i see an atheist as someone on a monkey bar who starts with the first rung and is making what appears to be great progress...hand over hand to the next rung...yeah i'm doing great....i can see the end....just a few more rungs and i will have completed the challenge....but alas you come to the end of the monkey bar only to find the last rung missing....there is no way humanly possible to successfully complete the task...your life hangs in the balance with only the last rung as the lifeline to safety....how unfortunate...you've run what appears to be a great race (by human standards) however you come up one rung short.....how sad !

This remind me of a little essay I wrote a few years ago:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/footsteps.html

eric,
interesting piece....even in this dream did this person find a need to seek a higher power - funny how dreams often mimic real life, huh ?

Sure. Lots of interesting things about dreams and the human mind. I have several books on the subject of how the mind works and grows, the psychology of religion and what-not. If only I had the time and money to go back to college... the things I'd love to study...!

eric,
with a mind that is a inquisitive as your and with your thirst for knowledge...it seems such as waste that somewhere along the line you have been misguided. i'm still attending college, the U.of H.S. (i.e University of the Holy Spirit)in randleman, n.c., i've been told by the head schoolmaster that i should never expect to graduate, rather to embrace the journey. the courses i'm taking are free to anyone who requests them and the time requirement is a life long dedication to serving God. btw there is open enrollment beginning today and running thru the second coming of Christ. ciao.............

A great irony is how a loving Christian bear is so brutal. The exhortation to go and not be an atheist (coming from someone with nary a philiosphical credit) seemed to contradict the rights of the newly graduated to think for themselves. Would it be a terrible thing if they chose to be the next Neils Bohr? (A boor always kneels.)