News-Record.com

You know, the Bible does in fact urge Christians to hold internal disputes away from external authorities:

1 Cor 6:1-3 - When any of you has a grievance against another, do you dare to take it to court before the unrighteous, instead of taking it before the saints? Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels-to say nothing of ordinary matters?

Add to this the command by Jesus to always forgive those who apologize, regardless of the circumstances:

Lk 17:3,4 - Be on your guard! If another disciple sins, you must rebuke the offender, and if there is repentance, you must forgive. And if the same person sins against you seven times a day, and turns back to you seven times and says, 'I repent,' you must forgive."

Well, you have a perfect environment for abusers and rapists.

This is exactly what happened in the Catholic Church with the child abusers being sheltered from the legal consequences of their crimes by church authorities. That was all "Biblically correct." Though some folks might not care for that fact, the support for it is there.

eric,
admittedly this is a difficult Christian issue. you are correct in citing those scriptures, however there are also other scriptures i believe play into thos whole scenario.let's look at romans 13 - believers are to be subject to the higher powers (i.e. governments and it's agents)and that they are in fact ordained of God. it actually states that gov. employees are ministers of God (secular ministers). believers are subject to the laws of the land (provided they don't conflict with God's commands). there is a technicality in this particular story which i will point out. it seems the mother of the rape victim did eventually turn the pastor over to the authorities and this would be in accordance with following the law to report such crimes. the fact that she reported him to the authorities is not the same as her personally taking him to court and suing him, like i said this is a technicality. i truly believe God desires that believers attempt to sort out their difference before the body of believers (i.e. the church). and Jesus charges us to forgive without ceasing. i believe that turning in the pastor to the authorities was following God's word and doing this does not preclude that you can and do forgive this person. eric i'll give you one to hang over my head in the future...i pray that i will never be in a situation like this family is in, b/c in my flesh i would feel exactly like that mother did when she wanted revenge.
i'm not sure your reference to the catholic priest/pedophile issue falls under this teaching. it was the churchs top brass moving these sick priests from one feeding ground to another and imo they have a hefty price to pay for those actions.

"admittedly this is a difficult Christian issue. you are correct in citing those scriptures, however there are also other scriptures i believe play into this whole scenario."

I agree with you, Buz. And I feel very happy that any time this sort of thing comes up in the news, virtually all Christians are united in feeling outraged at how some folks foul up. As Nancy said, the whole concept of someone asking a rape victim to keep quiet because it would ruin the career of any authorty figure is simply indecent.

eric,
this is getting creepy, i find myself in agreement again with you. but seriously, simply b/c we are on extreme opposite ends of faith in God, does not mean that your opinions are not often valid ,...as i suspect mine are too on occassion.

This isn't just creepy, it might also be obstruction of justice. Of course, I am not a lawyer.

"this is getting creepy, i find myself in agreement again with you. but seriously, simply b/c we are on extreme opposite ends of faith in God, does not mean that your opinions are not often valid ,...as i suspect mine are too on occassion."

Perhaps as we learn more about each other, we are starting to get past those bothersome prejudices we are prone to dealing with. As you say, we both are prone to getting things right as well as wrong.

Cheers!

I say hold Sanders accountable as an accessory!

To actually ask/tell someone to hold off on reporting a crime is CRIMINAL!

While the scriptures cited by Eric & Buz are in the Bible, there are many things in scripture that we do not hold true for the 21st Century.

And regarding the Romans 13 passage about governments being ordained by God, does that go for Saddam, Adolph Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Communism, etc?

Shalom

darryl,
yes - imo ..........................

to clarify ...."there are many things in scripture that YOU do not hold true for the 21st Century."

you have admitted that you are a george fox follower...but george said this:

"In the Letter to the Governor of Barbados Fox wrote:

We believe that the Holy Scriptures are the words of God; for it is said, in Ex. xx. 1, "God spake all these words, saying," etc., meaning the ten commandments given forth upon Mount Sinai. And in Rev. xxii. 18, saith John, "I testify to every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book: if any man addeth unto these, and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy" (not the word,) etc. So in Luke i. 20, "Because thou believest not my words." And in John v. 47; xv. 7; xiv. 23; and xii. 47. So that we call the Holy Scriptures, as Christ and the apostles called them, and holy men of God called them, viz., the words of God. [from Some of the Mysteries of God's Kingdom Glanced At, 1663]

however you state that some of those words aren't applicable in the 21st century - please explain why fox is wrong and your are right.

Fox died in the 17th century. Quakers believe in continuing revelation, therefore scripture is NOT the final authority. For detailed information on Quakers check out www.quaker.org

That is all I will discuss on this issue. This blog is not about what I believe Buz. Continue on with Eric. You seem to have warmed up to that atheist, whom you have lambasted in the past and done the same to me for saying that his (Eric's) words are applicable to a religious disucssion.

Now, yes, Dion Sanders needs to be held accountable as well as TD Jakes! The minister in question should step down until such a time as he has reconciled himself to society as a whole and his congregation specifically. However, I believe a time of close watching and accountablility should be held if the congregation keeps him as pastor.

Shalom

"Now, yes, Dion Sanders needs to be held accountable as well as TD Jakes! The minister in question should step down until such a time as he has reconciled himself to society as a whole and his congregation specifically."

This is very much true, sir. Both of these fellows were deeply mistaken and misguided if they thought that they could correct the situation on their own, keeping the crime from being reported. The harm they both did was unspeakable (what if this minister had attacked another victim while being "helped" by this pair?). I hope they get handed a civil lawsuit if they aren't criminally charged.

Of course, the advice was wrong to the max to not report this heinous crime to the proper authorities. The principle of not going to the secular authorities in I Cor. 6 was enjoined because the Roman system was not based on Biblical Law. Justice, for orthodox Christians and Jews cannot be carried out in a pagan, secular system because of the differences in moral law and penal sanctions; hence Paul’s admonition to settle things within the Church. They were apparently going to the secular courts for just about anything.

If the early Christians had been living in a society where Biblical Law was the basis and standard, as in pre-20th century America or England (imperfectly so), it would not have been an issue – justice could be had in the civil judicial system Most likely, the I Cor. 6 admonition referred to general legal issues, and not capital or major crimes, most of which they would have had no choice but to enter the secular system.

The Roman Church has a long history of seeing itself as an entirely separate system of government and justice. To a certain extent this is biblical and correct, but it should certainly not place it outside the law of the land in serious cases such as the abuse issues (and others), regardless of separation considerations. This is true as well because our legal system still bases its law on Biblical moral standards. Although I believe that this pastor, or anyone else that rapes or abuses a child, should be put to death after due process (not too long though).

Even though David, for instance, seems at first glance to have dodged the bullet in the adultery/murder case with Bathsheba, God executed justice in non-institutional ways upon him and his sons. If man does not carry out Biblical law and justice, God will. Most often He simply allows men to reap the consequences of their actions (Rom. 1. 26,27); at other times He intervenes more directly (Pharaoh’s army at the Red Sea/ the death of Ananias and Saphira in Acts 5).

Interesting that we are all using Scripture in “judging“ this issue. Man – Christian or otherwise – is frail and fallible, but God’s Law/Word stands forever as the overarching moral and legal standard for all humanity – “Let God be true and every man a liar.” Rom. 3.4

The bottom line is that churches must do a much better job of screening and monitoring their leadership personnel. As grievous as clergy failure is, it is inevitable that some will fall, because of the power of temptation and human vulnerability; especially in our current sexually degenerate culture. No one is beyond its ubiquitous corrupting influences. Recent studies corroborate Dan Quail’s criticism of media influence (Murphy Brown) on our youth, for which he was skewered at the time by the liberal media. No one but a deranged idiot would deny that immoral, violent and drug-embracing media fare has deleterious affects on people’s minds and behavior – especial the young and impressionable. We need to clean our moral house – big time!

Nikos, you're entitled to your own opinions and beliefs, but not your own facts. Dan Quayle assaulted "Murphy Brown," whose target audience and actual audience were grownups, not teens.

Just sayin'.

"Justice, for orthodox Christians and Jews cannot be carried out in a pagan, secular system because of the differences in moral law and penal sanctions; hence Paul’s admonition to settle things within the Church. They were apparently going to the secular courts for just about anything."

Now, I find this most interesting. I've not heard this before. Would you mind terribly giving me some instances where the Roman legal system was getting an "unjust" response to legal issues for Christians/Jews?

Just wondering...

"Fox died in the 17th century." well darryl who is telling you what to believe today if fox is dead ?
"Quakers believe in continuing revelation,".
i think what you really mean is "Only quakers can have continung revelation" for you surely won't allow for page to have any continuing revelation. he is just some sbc who can't possibly hear from God (apparently only quakers can ?)- so darryl did you ever hear from God as a sbc pastor or was only when you started following (a dead) fox's teaching that God began speaking to you ?
from what you stated about your quaker beliefs, you neither follow foxs or barclays idea of what they considered quakerism. barclay himself says "
"That every Principle and Doctrine of the Christian Faith is, and ought to be founded upon the Scripture; and that whatsoever Principles or Doctrines are not only not contrary; but even not according thereto, ought to be denyed as Antichristian.
decoded that means that the bible is true and believable. however you already claim the bible as unbelieveable and that 'only' your personal revelation is believable. some more on barclay :

Q. For what End were the Scriptures written?

A. For whatsoever things were written aforetime, were written for our Learning, that we through Patience and Comfort of the Scriptures might have Hope [Rom. 15:4].

Q. For what are they profitable?

A. Thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto Salvation, through Faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by Inspiration of God, and is profitable for Doctrine, for Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction in Righteousness, that the Man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all Good Works [2 Tim. 3:15-17].
i don't believe i've ever heard you say that scripture is comforting and that you find hope in them. did you happen to catch "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God" not just some that you wish to believe. seems barclay (and fox) had a very different view of scripture than you do. when one is left to pick what scriptures they choose to make part of their faith and then are allowed to add in anything else that sounds good to them, well it ends up like santeria...a little african belief, a little catholic belief a little voodoo belief and what ever tickles your fancy and you end up with a jesus who is just a walking dead man who smokes ganga while singing just like a virgin....just the imagination of mans mind...an idol !

and as far as being "warmed up to that atheist" (eric)....i said nothing to eric which i haven't said before publicly - that being that he has valid opinions on many issues and i've stated his opinion on spiritual concerns carry no weight with me. at least eric seems consistent and convinced of what he believes about Christianity (albeit imo it is wrong) but i don't get that same feeling with you.
eric (imo) was using the scriptures as bait to lure out a discussion ( and yes i took the bait ) - it just happens that what he quoted actually had bearing on the discussion, as usual he has a shallow (spiritually unguided) view and i simply gave him kudos for having that level of understanding. now you can take that and run with it all you want darryl, but you'll just end up tired and out of wind ! good day ..............

"i don't believe i've ever heard you say that scripture is comforting and that you find hope in them."

Buz, I'm curious... I know I'm sticking my nose into a relationship (if you could call it that) between 2 believers, but it really seems like you're kind of hounding Darryl a bit much. Has he really put your nose out of joint all that much?

I can't speak for the man, but I've met him in person, and he struck me as a nice, easy-going and very devout man who cares about othersmore than many people I've met. The pair of you have been going at each other "hammer and tongs" for a while, and it looks a bit wild, you know?

"did you happen to catch "ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God" not just some that you wish to believe."

Interesting that you mention this bit from the NT, sir. First, to get the whole Bible quote you used:

Thou hast known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto Salvation, through Faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by Inspiration of God, and is profitable for Doctrine, for Reproof, for Correction, for Instruction in Righteousness, that the Man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all Good Works [2 Tim. 3:15-17]

* * *

For starters, were you aware that the guys who wrote the NT talked about "Scripture" and meant just the Old Testament? I'm fairly sure that Paul's letters weren't originally considered part of the Bible until long after they were written.

Second, note the things that the writer said it is good for: Doctrine, instruction in the religion... basically "church stuff." I'm sort of crossing boundaries here, referring to the "age of the universe" thread here. Seems the writer of Timothy didn't consider the OT to be useful for science lessons. Perhaps it was closer to what Nikos was saying... allegory for spiritual matters. Just a thought to consider.

What else is creepy: on this topic, only having what appear to be male bloggers splitting hairs and quoting dead letter.

Any woman raped should be compassionately given all aid to treat her physical and emotional wounds, and to protect the next woman, she should be gently but firmly encouraged to prosecute the alleged rapist. Anyone abetting the rapist's escape from justice is a conspirator and enabler who probably thinks the woman deserved it and that all men should be able to get away with such things...unless it's their mother, wife or daughter...maybe.

"What else is creepy: on this topic, only having what appear to be male bloggers splitting hairs and quoting dead letter."

Well, yeah. But I think we established, all us MANLY men, that the reported behavior of Sanders and Jakes was rotten to the core. So we're branching off into other things to discuss... such is the way of blogs, you know?

eric,
i had a mini novel written in response. but deleted it all to say this. give darryl an opportunity to defend himself and quit being his "life preserver". you say that darryl & i are 2 believers but keep in mind we believe differently. actually someone could say that you and i are 2 believers and technically they would be correct.
checked my nose and it was still in joint !