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Found with one of his wives

Warren Jeffs got caught. I'm sure this is going to become a freedom of religion issue in his defense. Would you give him jail time if he's simply following long practices of his faith?

Comments (14)

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buz said:

while this man may use 'freedom of religion' as a legal defense...most who spend time studying Gods word know that we (mankind) are taught (as Christians) in the n.t. (rom.13 & 1 pet.2) to submit to authorities and ordinances (laws) of society unless we want to receive damnation. therefore we are not left at will to disobey the laws unless they are in conflict with scriptural teachings (acts 5:29)and even then if we 'choose' to disobey the law we must be willing and are required to pay the consequence. you can look at daniel as an example of this - there was a decree given in the land that no prayer or petition was allowed for thirty days under penalty of death if broken - well daniel had a habit of praying three times daily in the same spot and he 'chose' to disobey this decree and continued his daily prayer - some noticed this and reported him to the king who eventually had daniel thrown into a cave with a hungry lion (although God spared his life) we see daniel was still subject to the consequence of his action. therefore this mormon guy is no different and should pay the price required under the decree (i.e. our law)...all this is my opinion of course.

Eric said:

"while this man may use 'freedom of religion' as a legal defense...most who spend time studying Gods word know that we (mankind) are taught (as Christians) in the n.t. (rom.13 & 1 pet.2) to submit to authorities and ordinances (laws) of society unless we want to receive damnation. therefore we are not left at will to disobey the laws unless they are in conflict with scriptural teachings (acts 5:29)and even then if we 'choose' to disobey the law we must be willing and are required to pay the consequence."

But what do you do with Mormons, who have scriptures that say they HAVE to have multiple wives in order to properly prepare for heaven?

buz said:

eric,
in my understanding of scripture - you bite the bullet and pay the price for civil disobedience....as strange as it seems !

nikos said:

As to your final question, Eric: "Jail 'em." They don't HAVE to, as millions of Mormons have remained monogamous for over a century now. At least on this point we find our laws in harmony with Law of God. The OT allowances were for a season and did not reflect Genesis 1 or the NT model - "the husband of one wife." Let justice take its course. Besides, their "scriptures" are heretical countefeits.

Eric said:

"Besides, their "scriptures" are heretical countefeits."

One man's heresy is another man's scripture. From an objective standpoint, there's no legal reason to set one above another. Ask any Mormon, and they'll tell you that anyone outside their church belongs to the Church of Satan. Welcome to hell, friend!

Buz [TypeKey Profile Page] said:

imo any church that tell you that you MUST be their flavor or you go to hell scares the dog doo outta me. there is only one church and it is the one Jesus Christ is head of ...the body of Christ ! you don't ever need to step a foot inside a church (i.e. building) to be saved. i am not condoning not going to the establish worship house (church), only saying it is not requisite. we are encouraged as Christians to assemble together.

Nikos said:

Hell, - no! I KNOW where I am bound, by the witness of the Spirt who dwells within me. There is no comparing the diviner, Joseph Smith, and Yeshua the Messiah, who fulfilled all the OT prophesies and taught in synagugues and became the perfect Sacrifice Lamb, perfecting all sacrifice and atonement. THe Book of Mormon is a hodge-podge of KJV sounding phrases and weird (and boring) accounts. The reinstatement of polygamy is just ONE of thier strange doctrines.

Gary said:

For 1400 years the Muslim's Quran has told him to kill the infidel--that's me, my wife, my daughter, my mom, etc. Do I want a man to be jailed for "following long practices of his faith"? Yes...for the rest of his life!

Nikos said:

I must admit, I’m a little nervous about government telling anyone they can’t practice their religious convictions. However, if they are clearly breaking a statutory law, then they must pay the penalty, just as I have done for exceeding the speed limit in the past.

As a biblical Christian, I believe that the entirety of the Scriptures is given to man by God to be the standard for all justice and civil law – with the caveat that penalties may be adapted and the ceremonial law (blood sacrifices, temple ceremonies, annual feasts, etc) are now abrogated because Messiah perfectly fulfilled them. They remain instructive, but not binding.

The Decalogue, however, remains in full force as the standard of moral and ethical behavior; and all case law emanates from one of the Ten. All laws governing divorce and sexual sin, for example, would have as their basis “Thou shalt not commit adultery;” including sanctions against gay marriage; all forms of theft and embezzlement, “Thou shalt not steal.”

Therefore, it is altogether fitting and proper that polygamy should be prohibited by law, as also prostitution, homosexual acts, adultery, and fornication. To the extent that sin is allowed, honored and promulgated in a society, to that extent will it end up in ruins as a social entity. The destructive affects of the so-called “sexual revolution” of the sixties have been ravaging our society ever since: divorce and broken homes, gay marriage, STD’s; as well as collateral effects in our educational, political, judicial and commercial institutions.

The fly in the ointment is that whatever moral and ethical system is in power will inevitably seek to enforce its values and standards. It is no accident that gay marriage and abortion have been imposed on American Christians by liberal humanists during the latter half of the twentieth century. But there is no such thing as religious neutrality; some social ideology, some religious morality WILL be in the ascendancy, and WILL enacts laws accordingly.

Our society, for over a century, was a Christian nation, in terms of the prevailing moral and legal standards. Since about the middle of the last century, that has radically changed. Blinded eyes and darkened minds are now seeking to jettison all biblical standards, except those that serve their ends. It’s OK, for example, to kill pre-born babies, but not to commit murder or rob banks.

So, using biblical standards, all unbiblical sexual behavior and arrangements (polygamy) should be prosecuted, with appropriate penalties. However, from the current liberal relativistic perspective, if homosexuality is now approved and legalized, why shouldn’t ANY sexual/marital arrangement, including polygamy. To bolster the approbation of gay sex, all unbiblical modes must be at least tolerated, if not promulgated. The movement is clearly in that direction. This is the slippery slope of abandoning absolute biblical morality. The slide is into a cesspool of unimaginable misery and death. “When desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when is its fullgrown brings forth death.” (James 1.15) It’s just a matter of time – the end game is absolutely certain.



Eric said:

"However, if they are clearly breaking a statutory law, then they must pay the penalty, just as I have done for exceeding the speed limit in the past."

I've heard some say that man's laws should be broken if they conflict with God's laws. Now we see why that attitude will only lead to chaos in a pluralistic society. Because so many people have differing ideas of what "god's laws" or "god's desires" are, you'll have all sorts of people going off in different directions rather than concentrating on building a cooperative society of people with differing religious views.

This is why America was founded as a secular nation -- to work against that tendency to squabble over religious doctrine and to allow greater religios liberty. Granted, the separation of church and state will not allow free rein to religious views that mandate political control, but it's a price that should be reasonable, considering the alternative as shown in European and Middle East history.

Eric said:

A couple of questionable statments here:

"The Decalogue, however, remains in full force as the standard of moral and ethical behavior; and all case law emanates from one of the Ten."

Really? If I remember correctly, the Ten Commandments state that we should not covet anything that is not ours. Where is there a law against that? Is there a law against me looking at a woman I'm not married to? What about "honoring" your parents? Is there a law that would toss me in jail for calling my father names?

"It is no accident that gay marriage and abortion have been imposed on American Christians by liberal humanists during the latter half of the twentieth century."

Excuse me?? Not one American Christian has been forced into a gay marriage, and not a single Christian has been forced to have an abortion. How can you say anyone has imposed such a thing on you or any Christian?

Now, if you are harmed because a neighbor chooses to do something immoral in your eyes, I would like to learn how that works. Until then I think you should re-consider your phrasing here.

buz said:

"I've heard some say that man's laws should be broken if they conflict with God's laws. Now we see why that attitude will only lead to chaos in a pluralistic society "...........

there is no question a believer ought to obey God's law if a secular law imposes. that is not to say that God sets the speed limits or any number of other made man laws. if n.c had a law which abolished worship on sunday and i choose to disobey that law, then i fully expect the secular law to hold me responsible for disobeying but i can't see how my action would cause chaos in society !?

Eric said:

What I'm saying is that this instance of religious diagreement over the proper form of marriage is an example of the problems that ensue. You say, "God allows only 1 woman per 1 man," and the FLDS says "As many women as a man can handle." Both say they get their orders from God. Now what happens if some other sect appears (let's say some sort of latter day Amazons) who say their God mandates 5 men must be given to each woman?

What if a group pops up saying they have it on strict confidence from their God that gay marriages are allowed? Who would you be, following the above principle of "God trumps secular laws," to say they should disobey their God?

buz said:

eric,
in my estimation when the scripture(s) are not the foundational stone upon which we anchor our beliefs or those who only allow the scriptures they like to influence their decisions, then you will indeed end up with some form of chaos imo. scriptures attest to the fact that God cannot lie, therefore the acid test for any belief or doctrine should ultimately rest upon the written word...and yes the problem is always a matter of intepretation. personally i could care less whether a man has a dozen wives. i've done no in depth studying on mono/poly spouses, but i believe the model seen in the n.t. times reflects a bias towards one man/woman arrangement. the bible is an amazing instrument and it astounds me how many various ways it is interpreted, it's study never allows for a dull moment. i have some fairly firm beliefs but i 'try' to stay open to hearing and learning from others and if i need correction i trust God to correct me.

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