News-Record.com

This is an example of how the bible treats women like second class humans. This is an example of people attempting to bring the catholic church into the 21st century. This is people sacrificing themselves for what they believe in.

Heh. It's also the Catholic church doing what it does best -- working diligently to keep things from changing, regardless of the reasons dissidents might bring up.

Robert Ingersoll once said that the Catholic Church had more of a chance to become a progressive church than Protestant churches, because the Protestants took their rules from a book that will never change, but the Catholics at least had human being as their highest authority figures, and a man can change his mind. He apparently never met the likes of the modern-day Catholic rulers.

The men ruling the modern day Catholic Church remind me of the current Republican leadership in this country; THEY HAVE THE POWER! And as such, they are unwilling to relinquish ANY of that power!

So it is written, so shall it be done!

Shalom

This is an example of someone in rebellion against the authorities she knows she is bound by her baptismal vows to honor and obey. Instead of pursuing other avenues of dissent and dialogue, she has decided to do something that is at the center of the Faith and the RC C’s canon law. It is also based on the entirety of the Scriptural record; and the RCC officials are not just power mongers, they are duty bound to uphold the teaching of Scripture and the Church. She should just flee to the arms of the ultra-liberal ECUSA as others have done (Matthew Fox).

Although I have many problems with RC doctrine and practice, I commend them for upholding this particular Scriptural teaching in the face of the feminist sentimentalists, who care nothing for the Scriptures; only their quest for total equivalency. There are clear and valid reasons for male-only clergy enunciated in the Bible, as well as loving headship in marriage and family. Space prevents my elaborating on this; but thank God true Protestants do uphold sola scriptura and reject the dominance of one man in favor of THE Man, Christ Jesus. He and His Word never change, but as Luther noted, popes and councils can err – as history proves.

"This is an example of someone in rebellion against the authorities she knows she is bound by her baptismal vows to honor and obey. Instead of pursuing other avenues of dissent and dialogue, she has decided to do something that is at the center of the Faith and the RC C’s canon law."

You know, sometimes, it's a good thing for people to publicly disobey unjust rules. At least it gives those in positions of power the opportunity to see the reality of dissent. Who knows? Might even lead to an opportunity to improve the church. Stranger things have happened before.

I have to agree that public dissent is a most valuable freedom, but the position or doctrine being advocated is not thus automatically correct. It’s one thing to VOICE dissent responsibly and quite another to express that dissent by celebrating the cardinal sacrament of the Roman Church in flagrant disregard for its Canon Law and church authorities, who in this instance are biblically correct, though in regard to celibacy they are wrong.

Over the past century, theologians and church leaders have embraced secular causes like feminist egalitarianism, socialist politics and sexual perversion, all the while jettisoning biblical authority and venturing forth onto the shifting sands of Marxist humanism. Religious anarchists, like John Spong and Matthew Fox, have ship-wrecked the ECUSA, and have also made major inroads into other mainline liberal denominations until they bear little resemblance to the apostolic and creedal Faith.

The bottom line is that only scripture-based belief and practice brings forth the Kingdom of God and long-term social stability and blessing. The downward spiral of American culture is a direct result of humanist moral relativism AND ecclesiastical doctrinal compromise. But the root cause of all human conflict and misery is rebellion against God and His infallible Law/Word (AND deplorable pop-exegesis by religious charlatans as well).

The bottom line is that only scripture-based belief and practice brings forth the Kingdom of God

Exodus 34:7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."

Numbers 14:18
The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

The bottom line is religion is responsible for the vast majority of the suffering in the world.

"The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty"

Wait a sec. Does this translate from the original Hebrew as a direct contradiction? If God "by no means" clears the guilty, how could he forgive anything?

eric,
throw some cold water on that boner......i know how this excites you to think you can place another arrow (of i told you so) in you quiver of God disbelief........but the words "the guilty" do not appears in the original text.

nikos,
am i hearing you say that the rcc is "the church" and that they are beyond questioning ?
would you share with me what the deeds of the nicolaitans means to you....
Rev 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

rSnake,
"The bottom line is religion is responsible for the vast majority of the suffering in the world."
do you believe that 'religion' tries to alleviate any suffering in the world ?

"throw some cold water on that boner......i know how this excites you to think you can place another arrow (of i told you so) in you quiver of God disbelief........but the words "the guilty" do not appears in the original text."

Ah.. so the writer of Numbers was illiterate, and instead wrote "by no means clearing... visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children..." Is that what you're telling the world?

Also: is this really the sort of "justice" we should emulate, punishing children for things their parents did? Just wondering. Seems pretty alien and -- well -- wrong to me. What about you?

This kind of critique is typical of those who have no understanding of biblical theology. There is no contradiction; God is both merciful and forgiving and the great Judge of all the earth. This is, in fact, the key issue of the entire Bible: how can a just and holy God forgive imago dei creatures of their sin and rebellion. This is the principle of “that which ye sow, that shall ye also reap;” or, “karma” in Hindu parlance (which has no true atonement for sins). Hebrews 2.2 puts it this way: “Every transgression and disobedience received a JUST recompense.”

This is precisely why the OT sacrificial system was provisionally instituted until the great sacrifice of the Cross, for “. . . without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins.” (Heb. 9.22) The idea here is that sin is deadly, with horrible and destructive consequences. The blood shed signifies that a death has occurred in recompense for the sin(s) committed. Hebrews tells us that the blood of bulls and goats could never atone for sins, and that it was provisional, though effective by faith, because it drew upon the efficacy of Messiah’s fully efficacious blood.

The two passages mentioned by you guys – Exodus 34.7 and Numbers 14.18 is simply declaring that God has mercy on those who truly repent and seek Him with their whole heart, and that those who do not do so will surely reap what they have sown. There is thus no contradiction if one understands the nature of sin and the theology of redemption from Genesis to Revelation.

And the sentences about visiting the iniquity of the fathers unto the third and fourth generations is in reference only to those who remain hardened in their sin and unbelief. Because God is holy He cannot and does not, just let sin go – “clearing the guilty.” “Children” here is NOT referring to toddlers and youth, but simply declares that one’s sins, if not repented of and forgiven, have repercussions down through the generations. Studies have been done showing that great Christian men and women have produced many great Christians for generations and vice versa for the godless and evil.

Nothing in the Bible makes sense to the mind of unbelief and hostility to God. The Scriptures note that fact in myriads of places. Wisdom and understanding come only with humble repentance and love for God – and careful study of His Word.

eric,
your ignorance is showing again. i cannot say if the writer of numbers is illierate...to me it appears not.
" Seems pretty alien"...............
ahh you have finally nailed it eric and come to some earthly revelation. you simply cannot relate to God (its alien). you have stated before that you have found many contradictions in the bible which apparently have caused you to not believe its validity and perhaps even caused you to loose your faith in God. well you are right eric, the bible is full of contradictions if you do not know how to RIGHTLY DIVIDE its truths and you dear man have not that ability b/c you have not the Spirit of God. it is moot and redundant to tell you this. you seem to dedicate as much time in God as i do, only difference is i love Him and you don't and you expend alot of energy in trying to discredit Him.nikos stated it very well "Nothing in the Bible makes sense to the mind of unbelief and hostility to God."

All religions are exclusionary clubs. One chooses to belong, at the age of consent (usually 13 or so, give or take). Then, one abides by the club rules. Or lobbies fellow members to change the rules. Or leaves the club. One can be asked to leave or even forced to leave, by stripping one of access to the club's internal rites and rituals.
Or convincing others of the lack of efficacy of ones' attempted reforms, until one is ignored by what few supporters may have first been in agreement.

It's all about power.

do you believe that 'religion' tries to alleviate any suffering in the world ?

Good intentions and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee and not much else.

This kind of critique is typical of those who have no understanding of biblical theology.

That's right. You have to be a christian in order to understand plain english.

This is precisely why the OT sacrificial system

This has nothing to do with any system. It has everything to do with your god's behavior. And since he is supposedly the same for all eternity, he is still in the business of punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty. Earthquakes, hurricanes, tsunamis, and other "acts of god" are undeniable proof.

Studies have been done showing that great Christian men and women have produced many great Christians for generations and vice versa for the godless and evil.

What studies? Anybody can make statements like this.

Nothing in the Bible makes sense to the mind of unbelief and hostility to God.

This is the arrogance of the typical christian mindset that a person can't possibly understand the bible because they're godless heathens. It is the height of arrogance to "interpret" words your god spoke himself in order to assuage your own conscious.

It should not, and must not be, 'the height of arrogance" to proclaim the truths God has revealed/spoken. It must be done in humility, but it must be done. It is God's Word and God's authority at which you chafe, not mine or any other Christian.

We may proclaim it unskillfully, or even fall prey to pride in the frailty of our humanity at times, but our deep and true desire is that through our word and witness we may help others to come to “a knowledge of the truth;” and with St. Paul we pray, “ . . . that utterance be GIVEN unto me that I may open my mouth boldly to make known the mystery of the gospel.” (Eph. 6.19)

This is the promise of the Scriptures: that The Spirit of God will be poured out on those who BELIEVE (Act 1.8, 4:7,8 & 31)), in order that they will be able to declare God’s Word with boldness and skill; not because they are able or worthy in themselves, but because the Spirit will “GIVE utterance.” On the other hand, accurate biblical interpretation is not some magical inevitability for all Christians in every situation, but requires study, humility and holy living – as well as the unction of the Spirit - to be done properly and accurately – and that not alone, but in the collegiality of the Church.

So, yes, godless heathen – or anybody – are blinded by sin and unbelief; and so, see the Scriptures as a purely man-made document, full of error and distortion. It is only with a heart of love and humility before God, and the illuminating power of the Spirit, that the harmony and veracity of Scripture is perceived. If one is continually despising and resisting its authority, certainly there can be no receptivity or insight as to its message. So, you are correct, Rebel: no Spirit, no faith, no insight.

" This is the promise of the Scriptures: that The Spirit of God will be poured out on those who BELIEVE "

I don't want to beLIEve. I want to know.

" On the other hand, accurate biblical interpretation is not some magical inevitability for all Christians in every situation, but requires study, humility and holy living – as well as the unction of the Spirit - to be done properly and accurately "

I've been reading quite well thank you for over forty years now and I don't need any help, supernatural or otherwise. This is the arrogance I was referring to. Christians thinking they have an inside track on the only proper interpretation of a book that is full of error and contradictions whether or not you want to open your eyes to the truth.

Actually, Rebel, the argument is lost from the beginning 'cause the decked is stacked. Nikos begs the question of god's existence at every turn.

Nikos, I respectfully point out that it isn't necessarily that the book(s) is/are full of error and distortion. Non-theists can grant that your book is absolutely perfect (for its purpose), with no translation issues, etc., since we maintain it is written by men with no divine inspiratio; thus, the supposed historical truth or error, the self-contradictions, and the rest make no matter. It's more akin to poetry. It's art. Wonderfully effective, at that.

Actually, the entire universe begs the question! “The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament showeth His handiwork.” The Bible, compendium though it may be, is much more than a simplistic collection of arcane religious poetry and idle speculations, it is the God of all creation speaking to His god-aware creatures “at sundry times and in divers manners” (Heb. 1.1). It is a very special book, vastly different from all others. It speaks authoritatively, uses the divine first person extensively in prophetic mode, and reveals God’s nature and cosmic plan to a clueless humanity. However, to the eyes of unbelief, blinded by guilt and sin, He remains a distant, impersonal phantasm: the object of condescending scrutiny or hostile disdain.

Besides the prophetic fulfillments and historical accuracy of the Bible, the most poignant and convincing aspect of the Bible’s authority is that there is a perfect correspondence between what God declares and what actually occurs in the human situation. This is most powerful and clear after the transformation of the new birth, as the interior universe is now the experiential arena of God’s transforming grace and engaging truth.

Even though God cannot be contained in a test tube, or called forth at will like a genie, to appear by doubting minds, the universe and human life are sufficient testing grounds for the truth of His Word. Keeping His Commandments and moral absolutes ALWAYS produces the predicted results. The morality of Scripture ALWAYS produces blessing and peace. Conversely, breaking God’s Commandments and embracing immorality brings guilt, depression and ruin (adultery on spouse and children, STD’s from sexual promiscuity, stealing and murder brings down the law, hatred brings forth conflict and death) – and the list goes on and on.

As Jesus told Nicodemus, the Spirit of God is like the wind, you cannot see it with natural eyes, but its results are everywhere to be seen. Denying God to the spirit is like denying breath to the lungs because it cannot be seen. The soul longs and pines after its heavenly Beloved - restless, frustrated and irritable until it comes to rest eternally in His blessed arms. (Song of Solomon) Not all truth can be expressed in scientific formulas! The soul without God is listening to the universal symphony in mono – the new birth kicks in superphonic, and the sub woofer of “joy unspeakable and full of glory.”

"your ignorance is showing again. i cannot say if the writer of numbers is illierate...to me it appears not."

1 - shouldn't the book's nme be capitalized? Second, the fact was pointed out that the writer had a clause with a verb but no subject to go with it. That sounds like pretty bad writing to me. But if that's the only way you could get the verse to not say what the Bible says, that's cool. Go ahead and stick with your story of bad writing skills.

Wow, if we pointed out one another's typos, errors and writing faux pas (or should it be faux pases, well) we could have a slugfest of ad hominem barbs. And besides, what kind of credibility does one have who writes, "shouldn't the book's (nme) be capitalized." (This is not meant to be hostile, just thought it was ironically humorous)

I assume the "peace" you say, Nikos, "always" results if someone follows the precepts of the Bible means the "peace" given the victims of unspeakable crimes of violence? Oh, perhaps you mean "peace" they have at death? That would be, again, begging the question. If the universe were a rational being capable of sentience, and formulate sentences, perhaps mone could say it, too , begged a question", which would be a logical error. But it does none of that. "The Universe" may not even be an "it", except as a concept for simplifying a vast cacophony of yet-unknown relations.

"Besides the prophetic fulfillments and historical accuracy of the Bible, the most poignant and convincing aspect of the Bible’s authority is that there is a perfect correspondence between what God declares and what actually occurs in the human situation.""

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.

Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,

Ya know, you're absolutely right. Comparing the bible with world events shows he still punishes the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.

RS, you obviously didn't read my entry carefully. You totally do not understand the meaning of these passages, and insist on distorting their content to fit your prejudices.