News-Record.com

Interesting stuff. I note that several of the Cristian leaders listed here who "fell" are still in business doing exactly what they did to "fall" in the first place. Jimmy Swaggart is still televangelizing. Robert Tilton is still convincing people to send him "prayer seeds" or whatever the heck he calls it. It's just that he's doing it on BET instead of ABC. Big deal.

Bernard Law, this thing says, is leading a "influential" church in Rome instead of doing the hard time he deserves for protecting and enabling child rapists.

Just makes you wonder.

ONE thing it makes you wonder is why there are no Atheists or Humanists listed, whose belief systems are consistently treated as “religious” alternatives by this blog site - which is correct! I mean, they have their manifestos and hierarchies, just like any other religion/belief system. Instead of a transcendent deity at the top of things, Almighty Man (Human) is the ultimate arbiter of truth, ethics and morals (typically religious concerns). I have no doubt whatsoever that numerous offenders of all kinds could be gleaned from the ranks of declared Humanists and Atheists: Hollywood stars, university profs, advocates of baby killing, lawyers, etc.

This entry was extremely biased and hypocritical. (I do realize that it was a separate article; but it was obviously chosen to be featured, and no balancing statement was offered) If you don't consider Atheism to be in the same ontological class with religious faiths, then DON’T EVER have another entry that portrays it as such. The lack of Atheist/Humanist offenders in the article is a clear indication of bias. This blog site seems to take particular delight in spotlighting Christians (leaders in particular) who have offended. You can stop now; the election's over.

With the size of the Christian religion (several millions in American alone) and the multitude of temptations in our cyber-infested culture there are bound to be failures. Just a cursory reading of the Bible, and human history, will show that the spiritual assets of victory are often ignored or cast aside. But as the bumper sticker so eloquently puts it, "I'm not perfect, just forgiven." However, this in no way diminishes the grievousness of the offenses of those who have transgressed, or their culpability; but it does reiterate the fact that man is in desperate need of God's grace (Gospel, Word & Sacraments) and power (Spirit) to overcome sin; but that he also must exercise his will, since we are not created as marionettes, but real persons with free wills - in a personal and dynamic relationship with our Creator.

I too am appalled, John, at the continued exposure of these eccentric charlatans on the tube. I wince with pain every time I see them. Unfortunately, they are not part of an accountability structure (church, diocese or bishop, etc.); or if they are, it is powerless to deal with them, or may in fact be in agreement with them. It’s time for Christian authorities and church members to clean house in whatever ways possible. Between the Internet, money and the TV medium it is very hard to discipline or influence these guys; or anyone for that matter. Unfortunately it's just part of the bizarre media scenario today. But if Christians don’t do the job, God undoubtedly will!

The reason there are no atheists listed could very well be because there are no "fallen leaders" amoung the atheist community. If you are aware of any Nikos, please list them for us please and cease your useless accusations.

You got to a reply before I could, RS. Nikos wanted to have the list include fallen or disgraced atheist leaders. The only ones I imagine he could come up with would be Stalin or Mao... and they could hardly be considered leaders of the atheist community in general, considering they were nationalist political leaders, not religious figures as such.

Thanks John; at least you are honest enough to admit that there MUST be offending Atheists and Humanists. Of course there are. Stalin and Mao may be political heads of state, but so what. Does that raise them above the swirling masses of humanity. Quite the opposite, they identified with the masses big time. Communism is acknowledged by ALL to be atheistic and humanistic. There are only slight differences in the Communist Manifesto and the Humanist Manifesto. All the atrocities and oppressive acts of all Communist persons and states stand as living historically-verifiable testaments to the ideas and programs of Atheism and Humanism – but not the views and actions of individuals necessarily.

There have been, as well, terrible things promulgated by popes, religious movements and political factions in the past. I certainly acknowledge that. But we can all agree that they do not represent the genuine tenets of Christ or the Apostles, any more than Mao does the views of contemporary American atheists. The truth is that ideas have consequences; and so do actions; and all persons who depart from the tenets of their founders or exemplars, and go astray in their actions, only reveal their own faulty grasp of the first principles of their chosen philosophical system, and their weakness in upholding them. However, the intent of the article, and its inclusion, is clear: let’s kick the defeated Christians while their still squirming on the ground.

Snake’s statement that “the reason that there are no atheists listed could very well be that there are no atheists who have fallen” is clearly false. Even John’s answer shows how exceedingly risky such a statement is. OF COURSE there have been atheist leaders, exponents etc who have done wretched things. You’d have to be in sheer denial to miss that. They are not “known,” or splashed across the screen like Jimmy Swaggart and Ted Haggard because they did not openly proclaim righteousness. If the town drunk went down to the bar and got soused Saturday night, no one would be surprised; but let the preacher do it and it would be the talk of the town and he would be fired. I have said before that, IN ONE SENSE, hypocrisy is worse than out and out sin; as Jesus’ different treatments of hypocritical religious types and prostitutes and tax collectors shows. But that doesn’t for one moment justify ANY sin or sinner. He told he woman caught in adultery to go and SIN NO MORE.

The difference today is that biblical Christianity is under grievous attack by Humanists, Atheists and secular enthusiasts of all stripes: from ultra-liberal politicians and academics, to a retired ECUSA bishop, to left wing Chavez/Castro supporters. And they will miss no opportunity to feature and publicly skewer any Christian who falls. Although there is supposedly nothing wrong with their actions! Nevertheless, the temptation to gain political advantage overwhelms their approval of perversion. They hate Christianity so virulently because it upholds those moral and ethical principles that keep them from promoting and freely indulging their sexual perversion, apostate theology, socialistic big govt. projects. free sex, anti-marriage lifestyles, baby killing, ad nauseam.

Witness Elton John’s recent post-election statement to the effect that all religions should be banned because they teach ideas contrary to his on gay sex. Whoa! Who’s made him the dictatorial Humanist demagogue - time for Humanist’s to wince. Elton joins his fellow town drunk Barney Franks as one who openly and unapologetically flaunts his wretched acts. We’re already up to our cultural waist in sewage behavior. I guess we’ll be over our heads before long; now that the fear of the religious-right voting block has been assuaged.

As I figured, the defeat of the Republicans has sent a signal across the breadth of the Humanist spectrum that now is the time to solidify and entrench all their treasured gains of the last half of the 20th Century. Even if they do, God’s judgment will not fail. As the Scripture says: “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God (and it surely is! / mine): and if it first begin with us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God.” Indeed!

"Communism is acknowledged by ALL to be atheistic and humanistic. There are only slight differences in the Communist Manifesto and the Humanist Manifesto."

Oddly enough, I have read both items and I don't recall a whole lot of agreement between them. The Communist movement was political and economic in nature. Humanism has nothing much to say in either area, except for support for democratic principles.

Nikos, you were pretty quick to mention that not all Christian "dominionists" are the same in their views or goals. Why do you insist on trying to stuff atheists into the box of Communism? You may not have caught on to it, but RebelSnake, for instance, is a Republican. One of two atheist Republicans that I know of in Greensboro. And there are several Libertarians that I know who would bristle at your assumptions of knowing what they believe.

I pointed out that Stalin and Mao were hardly what you could call "leaders of the atheist community" because of their nationalist and political natures. Atheism is nothing so much as a repudiation of religion. Humanism is not nationalist in nature, but rather universalist. Leaders in this sort of world are sort of hard to identify. You might list Madaline O'Hair, but while she was abrasive, she was not "disgraced." There are several authors who have influence, but I'm not aware of any who have dealt with prostitutes or cheated on huge congregations.

"OF COURSE there have been atheist leaders, exponents etc who have done wretched things. You’d have to be in sheer denial to miss that."

This is an assumption. It really means not a lot until you can actually in fact provide some information of specifics. As Sam Harris said recently, if the idea that religion is required for moral behavior, you shouldn't have any trouble finding support for it. Organizations where atheists are the vast majority should be filled to the brim with rapists, thieves and murderers. And our prisons should be overflowing with atheists. But of course, the data shows the opposite, with prison population figures indicating less than 1% as being atheist when they enter the system.

"If the town drunk went down to the bar and got soused Saturday night, no one would be surprised; but let the preacher do it and it would be the talk of the town and he would be fired."

Well, that's surely the price one pays for telling people that you're a spokesman for God.

"Witness Elton John’s recent post-election statement to the effect that all religions should be banned because they teach ideas contrary to his on gay sex. Whoa! Who’s made him the dictatorial Humanist demagogue - time for Humanist’s to wince."

Well, I admit that I would disagree with Sir Elton on what little I've read. But with him being in England, where the government requires all children to be officially indoctrinated in the state religion, I can't really say he's 100% wrong.

"Even if they do, God’s judgment will not fail."

{sigh}

Nikos,
Why do you find it necessary to lie about what I said?

"The reason there are no atheists listed could very well be because there are no "fallen leaders" amoung the atheist community."

That is a much different statement than there are no fallen atheists.

is not disaster to the perverse, and calamity to the workers of iniquity? Job 31:3
Who goees with the workers of iniquity, and walks with wicked men? Job 34:8
Depart frrom me, all workers of iniquity, for the LORD has heard the voice of my weeping.
Ps 6:8
Draw me not away with the wicked, and the workers of iniquity who speak peace to their neighbors but evil is in their hearts. Ps 28:3

A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruits, nor can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruitMt7:18

Ps 37:1 ¶ A Psalm of David. Do not fret yourself with evil doers; and do not be envious against the workers of iniquity.
Ps 53:4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? They eat up my people as they eat bread; they have not called on God.
Ps 64:2 Hide me from the council of those who injure, from the rebelling of the workers of iniquity,
Ps 92:7 ¶ When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity blossom, it is that they shall be destroyed forever;
Ps 92:9 For, lo, Your enemies, O LORD; for lo, Your enemies shall perish; all the workers of iniquity shall be scattered.
Ps 94:4 They gush; they speak impudent things; all the workers of iniquity speak proudly.
Ps 94:16 Who will rise up for me against the evildoers? Who will stand up for me against the workers of iniquity?
Ps 125:5 And those who turn aside to their crooked ways, the LORD shall lead them forth with the workers of iniquity; peace shall be on Israel.
Pr 10:29 ¶ The way of the LORD is strength to the upright; but ruin is to the workers of iniquity.
Pr 21:15 ¶ It is joy to the just to do judgment, but ruin shall be to the workers of iniquity

Bisexual Christian Leaders?

It’s interesting that Jim Bakker just like Ted Haggard was also bi-sexual before being exposed for his hypocrisy. See Bi- Sexual Felon Or Hero - Jim Bakker? http://cnt10.tripod.com/bakker.htm . And Paul Cain became a homosexual See Apostasy http://victorybooks.tripod.com/apostasy.htm

The Major Problem - There is a very serious discernment problem amongst the leaders of this current prophetic movement! It is very, very, dangerous and let's look at the trend from how I have seen it....

A. John Wimber brings in Paul Cain's ministry to the forefront and proclaims he is the greatest prophet since William Branham. Paul Cain makes many public prophesies about President Clinton and even Saddam Hussein that have never come to past. John Wimber suddenly gets cancer in this period and tragically dies as does his son. Rick Joyner and Mike Bickle continue to push the ministry of Paul Cain and many other smaller "prophetic" ministries are conceived during this time. Rick Joyner later writes that during this whole time he did not have the slightest ideal that Paul Cain was sodomizing young men and had a alcoholic problem. The bomb shell is dropped quietly about the fall of Paul Cain less than three years ago and since then very little is heard about bringing in correction to him. Those who followed Cain's ministry as their "father" in the 90's are now distancing themselves from this very perverted mess. No repentance, no public apologies of presumptuous words given outside a letter posted on Rick Joyner's web site of his sorrow for Paul Cain and wanting to see him restored back into ministry....

This mystery of silence induced by these leaders of this prophetic camp therefore leaves us with three options on how to resolutely judge them, who with absolutely no discernment, brought in the whole Paul Cain mess and debacle (remember we(Holtz) knew 17 years ago he was a sodomite...so why couldn't they see it also?) Since these men are calling themselves Apostles/prophets (Rick Joyner, Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, and all those others who say that Cain was their spiritual father) but did not sound the whistle earlier about Cain's character of sodomy.... We are left to conclude with three questions.

1. You who worked with Paul Cain are also totally deceived and are under that same effeminate false anointing and perhaps are also secret sodomites.
2. Or you knew many years ago about Paul Cain's character but hid it to protect your own reputation.
3. Or you are not in the office of a true prophet as you project to be, but are rather teachers with a prophetic edge and that accounts for why you did not pick up on Cain's sodom lifestyle earlier.... and also now Ted Haggard.

(I personally lean towards #2 and #3 concerning the men mentioned above who eventually notified the Body of Messiah about Paul Cain's perversions after the damage was already done).

B. During this time there was a strong emphasis at the end of the current Toronto Renewal/Brownsville Revival towards intercessory based prayer and prophetic unity meetings(becomes more popular in Canada than the States). Cindy Jacobs leads the charge and prophetically installs gate keepers of cites; prophets and apostles; mapping out the cities for past crimes and reopening ancient wells takes precedent over evangelism. It is also in this time period that Wesley Campbell, Rick Joyner, and many others begin to introduce rated 'R" movies into the renewal crowds as a way to prophetically "activate"the attendees. Mel Gibson's charactership in the movie Braveheart is applauded and spread to many young people experiencing the renewal. This later opens the door to many so called "divine encounters" from people that now are habitually watching with no remorse or conviction watching demonic clips like The Matrix, Lord of the Rings, X-Files, etc.... Personal prophecy conferences comes in at an all time high and is promulgated also with Bill Hammond's ministry. Chuck Pierce, Grant Jefferies and many others at this time fill the religious airwaves with prophetic warnings about Y2K is going to happen and we need to mobilize and get stocked up on freeze-dried food and buy Honda generators before Jan. 1st, 2000. Excess is galore and then courageously John Beveree attempts to bring correction into this plethora of untested and presumptuous words with his new book Thus Saith the Lord, but is rejected very strongly by many who flow in the prophetic intercessory-based unity movement (i.e. Bill Hammond).

C. During this time also we see these same prophetic/intercessory based ministries blending to really conglomerate around the leadership of Ted Haggard in Colorado and many begin to relocate and consider him their new Apostolic/pastoral umbrella for the likes of Peter Wagner, John Bevere, Cindy Jacobs, Chuck Pierce, and many others. The growth at Ted Haggard's church is very strong and essentially he is brought in to help sort out and "pastor" the ever increasing problems happening within the rophetic/intercessory movement. He is soon in 2003 pinned up as the poster boy for the Evangelical movement and serves as President and role model for millions of evangelicals worldwide! But it was in 2003 that Ted Haggard also began to reveal his own strange presumptuousness. He called in 2003 a prayer and fast for all the Body of Messiah to get up at 3:33am on March 3 (third month) because something wonderful was going to happen. And March 3rd, 2003 has come and gone and nothing has happened..... And at this same time Ted was secretly visiting his homosexual prostitute and wanting to snort meth! Could this presumption in the current prophetic movement be traced to leaders who are also secret homosexuals and also display an effeminate personality and not that of a masculine military commander? (i.e. Paul Cain, Ted Haggard) ....C'mon dear friends why is it so hard for these leaders of this current trend of the prophetic/intercessory gatherings to see that it's main leaders are using alcohol/drugs and sleeping with male prostitutes???? Does anybody have any discernment there or has the almighty dollar blinded them? Where is all the fiery preaching of John Bevere here in Ted's camp since John moved his whole ministry up there several years back????

D. It was during this time God told me to write the book The Mystery of Lawlessness and to begin to preach even a harder 911 wake up call to the leaders of the Body in the Western nations! It was during this time that also the peacenik bless Israel/Jerusalem gathering gained momentum which I noticed that pushed a zeal for loving and supporting Israel ...but so few were actually really wanting to evangelize the Jewish people and boldly lifting up the name of Jesus! I began to confront in loving zeal these leaders of this movement and I noticed right away in my conversation with them that they exhibited an effeminate personality and also most camouflaged homosexuality..... And yes, Ted Haggard was also at the top echelons of leadership for this bless Israel movement.

So that brings me to some conclusions as we all have had our hearts saddened and deeply grieved by the facts we are now hearing coming out of the dark secret life that ruled in Ted Haggard while he at the same time provided oversight for the major players in the current prophetic movement.

1. Where were all the so called Prophets and Apostles years earlier with their discernment radar screens in code red when they spent so much time with their pastor Ted Haggard whom they were so submitted to????? Homosexuality is very easy to spot in a leader! What is the real story of why did Peter Wagner; John Bevere; Chuck Pierce; Cindy Jacobs; not openly confront Ted Haggard's character many years ago????? These type of sins of this caliber (see Romans 1) do not happen overnight! He is going down as one of the biggest liars and deceivers of our modern Christendom! Folks, this is bigger than Jimmy Swagart and Jimmy Baker put together!!!!! This situation with Ted Haggard and all those in the Apostolic/Prophetic movement that rallied around him is very far reaching!!!!! Oh God, have mercy on his sweet wife and five children!!!!!

2) I wholeheartedly believe in mercy, forgiveness, and restoration for Ted Haggard and that hopefully will happen. But why not take the next bold step (for the safety of the Body and our children) and demand a full audit of all the others ministries that hung around Haggard. Which one of them are also closet homosexuals or lesbians that are about to have a similar train wrecks!!!! That homosexual spirit attracts around itself those with the same characteristics!!!!! Are we just going to stop with restoration here for Haggard without cleaning out the rest of the barn????? The prophetic movement neatly swept the sodomite issue with Paul Cain and Roberts Lairdon under the rug of "compassionism". Are we going to do the same with this very big scandal with Ted Haggard too????

3) Isn't it interesting today what is in the headlines this Sunday November 5th, 2006. Saddam Hussein is going to be hanged for being one of the leading terrorists of our generation. And the other article on the front page next to it is the Sodomy and lies of Ted Haggard for being one of the spiritual leaders of our generation! I see the handwriting on the wall folks! God is judging the leaders of the dark and of the light!!!!

4) My heart is so saddened that I can't write much more this evening so let me just sigh and sign off and enter into intercession for these men and woman I have written about here that have labored for our Lord but maybe unknowing are caught up in one of the greatest deceptions ever to hit the Body of Messiah coined by Him in 2 Thessalonians as the Mystery of Lawlessness...... I love these ministries mentioned above but can no longer be quiet about the compromise I see! Please do not be offended by what I have written ... but instead with weep with me....

I will attempt to make this short and to the point as most everybody has read the shocking news about Ted Haggards tragic confessions this weekend. What you are about to read is not done out of any vindictive or critical spirit on my behalf but a deep burden of the Lord to signal and warn you with all my strength that the current leadership of the Apostolic/Prophetic movement of North America has reached a place of no return in what they have allowed into the House of God. Judgment has begun in the His House and what you are reading in the newspapers this weekend of the falling of Ted Haggard is just the tip of the iceberg of what is going to be exposed of others associated with him and the Apostolic/Prophetic movement he helped lead.... (For me to adequately detail for you how dangerous things have become, I have been released by the Lord tonight to mention specific names of ministers in this email, not to trash their ministries, but to attempt to expose a very hideous plan of Satan to deceive millions of Christians world-wide. I'm not a heresy hunter who feeds on the bones of fallen saints but rather a brother who passionately wants to see the glory of God. Unfortunately in all my travels the last 21 years, I have seen much compromise, gross Scriptural error, and demonic manifestations that have gone unchecked in the current prophetic movement. However, this is all changing this week...as it is time to let His justice system trigger and flow down like a mighty river to purify His people! Many of the hidden prophets are coming out of their caves of exile in this hour! Get ready to not be offended by us and our messages of ruthless and divine justice!!!)

In 1989, Dalit and I pleaded and warned the leaders of a local Messianic congregation we attended and were married in to not go out to Kansas City (Mike Bickle's church) and have a well known "prophet" named Paul Cain prophesy and lay hands on them. God had shown us that this minister Paul Cain was a homosexual and was operating in something which he called "the mantle of the late William Branham".The leaders of our congregation told us to be quiet and not spread our opinions to the other members because they considered themselves more spiritually in tune with what God is saying than Dalit and I. Being discouraged but still not willing to be quiet with this strong warning rolling on the inside of me about Paul Cain, God arranged a few days later for us to have a spontaneous meeting with the late Derek Prince. In this small and intimate meetings, we had the chance to share some of our prophetic concerns with Derek and he wisely told us a testimony of one of his best friends named Earn Baxter who travelled many years with William Branham. Before Earn had passed on into the glory realm, he told Derek Prince that at the end of William Branham's ministry there was a strange thing happening. Branham had the great ability to operate in a very accurate word of knowledge from God but also at times seemed to operate in a spirit of divination! Derek Prince then went on as a wise sage to warn us as young bucks to have nothing to do with any in so called "prophetic" ministry who say they have the mantle of William Branham transferred on upon them!!!! No matter how many signs and wonders are evident!!!!

Paul Cain was the man Derek was making direct reference to and we held on to this secondary confirming prophetic warning from Derek despite being personally ostracized and rejected by many of the leaders and believers we knew at that wonderful Messianic fellowship. However, as we put quick distance between us and Paul Cain and especially those other ministries in North America who considered Paul Cain their "spiritual father" we noticed a very tragic thing begin to happen in that local Messianic Fellowship. Strife, division, presumptuous prophetic words, and then friends dying of cancer and many marriages washing up into the secular divorce courts. And to this day, that Messianic Fellowship is tragically no longer in existence....and my heart still grieves by what I saw enter in and because of the fear of man did not sound the warning louder.....

In His watchtower weeping,

Scott Holtz

http://flashfloods.com

Rivers In The Desert International

P.O. Box 2788

Alpharetta, GA. 30023-2788

USA