News-Record.com

What a remarkable statement. Considering the number of male-female parent pairs who annually abuse, neglect or even kill their children... well, it is pretty interesting indeed.

"Love can't replace a mother and a father," huh?

Wanna bet?

Yes, I do wanna bet - or rather, fully assert that we are going down the absolutely wrong path - no matter how the media and gay advocacy groups try to dress it up. Niceness, good jobs, and all other window dressing is sheer smoke and mirrors. God did NOT intend either a male/male or woman/woman marital arrangement as a scenario in which to raise children. There is absolutely NO evidence or support for such a godless aberration in the Word of God. It is a machination of spiritual darkness and ignorance. Even secular sociologists and psychologists have largely recognized the importance of both the male and female elements in a healthy familial environment.

The disfunctionality and abuse present in many contemporary marriages and families is not IN ANY WAY the result of a defect in the biblical one-man/one-woman model; but rather, is due to the continued anti-family views and policies of feminism and humanism – plus pervasive approbation of sin (adultery, promiscuity before marriage, perversion, etc.) in our culture. To assert that gay marriages with children are superior to God’s created intent is both stupid and blasphemous in the extreme. Cheney should have sleepless nights for not having done more to preserve the biblical model! But parents, understandably, want to put the best face on a problematic situation regarding their beloved children – which in no way justifies their adjustments.

"There is absolutely NO evidence or support for such a godless aberration in the Word of God."

See, Nikos, here's your problem. You think that once you find an answer to any question in your "Word of God" that it is the final answer and it shouldn't be questioned -- only followed slavishly.

You should be thankful that the Western world hasn't followed your example for the past five centuries. If it weren't for questioning the "truths" laid out in the Bible, we would still have slavery, women would still be treated as little more than property, and we would still be teaching our children that the universe is a 6000-year-old snow-globe with the Earth at its center.

In order to determine if same-sex parents are a viable fanily model, a better way to determine this is to look at evidence in the real world. I believe you'll find if you look in the Bible that the idea of homosexual marriage is never mentioned, since the writers never dreamed that such an idea would come up. So it really can't give you the answer to the question... but scientific study of examples in the real world can.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/dec05/kids.html

Now, one last question. I don't think you addressed the story that Lex linked to above. What di you think about the fact that there are an awful lot of heterosexual couples, many of them deeply religious, who abuse and even kill their children, rather than showing them love as they grow up? If you had to choose between a pair of women who genuinely love each other and their child, or a couple like the one in the story, which would you say was better for the child?

"The disfunctionality and abuse present in many contemporary marriages and families is not IN ANY WAY the result of a defect in the biblical one-man/one-woman model; but rather, is due to the continued anti-family views and policies of feminism and humanism – plus pervasive approbation of sin (adultery, promiscuity before marriage, perversion, etc.) in our culture."

Ever read any Dickens novels, Nikos? [:->

What Dickens said or wrote is of no consequence in this debate. The only two polarities are shifting human opinion and the eternal Word of God.

Your statement that homosexual marriage (with children) is never mentioned in the Bible because it was never imagined that such a thing could be is quite accurate. It was indeed an unimaginable abomination. What you fail to see is that the divine Creator and his model of human life and behavior was created in order to assure maximum happiness for individuals, and stability and happiness for entire communities of persons.

The argument against homosexuality from the Scriptures is not merely based on the prohibitions of Leviticus and Romans, but on the creation even itself as well as the perennial and ubiquitous centrality of the hetero model in all law, exhortation, prophetic utterances, models of Christ and His Church (Eph. 5) etc, etc. Any attempts to “find” favorable references to homosexuality are mere interpretive slight of hand and naïveté (to put it graciously).

Your fabricated argument regarding the negative behavior of some hetero couples I dealt with before – the problem is sin. If there is more today, it is precisely because of the destructive effects on the family that feminism and immorality have had. And, of course, because of the sheer numbers, there will be many examples of failures. I could just as easily point out the millions of well-adjusted and felicitous Christian and secular families. Regardless of how nice and able two homosexuals are, they can NEVER model the god-created love of a wonderful wife and fine husband.

The male-female dynamic is key and essential in the Scriptural (also natural) family. A daughter derives a large part of her self-concept and security from her FATHER, as does the boy, of course. We are talking about not only what will produce a pervasively healthy and holy culture, but what the Almighty God has decreed. It is axiomatic that to diverge from His moral precepts and commandments is the beginning of cultural and national demise.

Your examples of misunderstandings of God;s true and inerrant Word are silly and passé. Any thoughtful person today understands that MUCH of human comprehension has been progressive. The Bible was written in a temporal and cultural context that can affect some interpretive elements. Other, more didactic and discursive segments are simple, direct and clear. “Thou shalt not steal” etc. requires no figurative adjustments. The sun RISING in the East and SETTING in the west is true, observationally, but technically adjustable. What PEOPLE have believed at any historical moment is irrelevant to what God revealed in his Word. It speaks of human fallibility and ignorance, not the original intent of the Scriptures. You should know that – but probably don’t want to cop to it, as you prefer your tired and worn shibboleths.

The real world is not this shabby excuse of spiritual ignorance and sin we see around us now. It is the City of God, the Kingdom, the New Heavens and the New Earth. Abraham anticipated a “City” whose builder and maker is God. Your “real world” has produced only misery and death. All that is good on this orb has its roots in God and His Word. He who has eyes to see let him see!

"What Dickens said or wrote is of no consequence in this debate."

I beg to differ. Dickens wrote during a time frame where nearly everyone in British society was deeply religious, and long before any of the things you take issue with regarding the social revolution of today. And Dickens did not write in a vacuum, sir. He wrote about the evils that were happening in "proper" society all around him. I can assure you of the truth of his accusations against Christian British society, as my father was a direct victim of it when he was born in London in 1918.

The point being that if you think that "1-man/1-woman" families can be assumed to always be good for a child, so long as they're following Christian traditions and not "hindered" or whatever by modern social trends you abhor, you are fooling yourself. Traditional families are simply one model that Western societies have followed for centuries... they're not "magically perfect," and are as likely to go wrong as any other family model that comes along.

Your baseless assertions of "holy mandate" make no difference in reality. The real test is how things go in the real world.

"Your fabricated argument regarding the negative behavior of some hetero couples I dealt with before – the problem is sin."

So... according to you, your God set up a perfect model for families, knowing in advance that "sin" (the ever popular x-factor) would foul it up. How convenient. You know a perfect idea that can't be relied upon under any circumstances (since according to you all have sinned) is no better than any man-made model. The results are the same. I can see no reason why anyone should bother themselves with following your advice or that of God. Since "sin" will inevitably foul up any of the "perfect" things you want everyone to follow, they are not worth considering.

Now, if you happen to get a real winner revealed to you by God -- something that really works and is fool-proof, do be sure and post it. I'll be very interested in reading all about it.

"The real world is not this shabby excuse of spiritual ignorance and sin we see around us now."

Oh really? Are yu that far removed from the here and now that you're willing to move on to the next world? I bet you'd not dare to try it.

Let’s try this again: not all that calls itself “Christian” is such. Just Britain was a “Christian” nation does not mean that true biblical Christianity was known and practiced in the majority of marriages and family scenarios. Like all human societies, you had the good and the bad together. Just because Dickens focused on the negative, doesn’t mean that there weren;t many good examples as well. But England was the victim of sin and humanism then, even as it is now. It is rare, today and historically, that a social entity acts upon widely disseminated biblical truth regarding marriage and family. There isn’t a whole lot of sound teaching today in Christian circles, in fact – hence the divorce rate in the Church. Even with a decent teaching input, families struggle in a modern American milieu that is replete with anti-marriage and anti-family influences and forces.

There have been only isolated pockets of truly viable incarnations of accurate and consistent biblical truth in this area throughout history. There are many today who follow God’s model consistently and have wonderful marriages and families, that affirm the truth of God’s ways – mine being one of them. It is a truly marvelous thing to see the fruit of godly instruction and love; and sad and tragic to see the opposite. This is a real winner, John. Perfection, no; but corroborating evidence, yes!

John: “The point being that if you think that "1-man/1-woman" families can be assumed to always be good for a child, so long as they're following Christian traditions and not "hindered" or whatever by modern social trends you abhor, you are fooling yourself.”

Not so! Sin (thought and behavior that is anti-life and anti-God’s commandments and truth) affects ALL people, Christian and non. It is just that - IF – we strive, by God’s grace and power, to TRULY implement His ways in our lives, we mitigate the degenerative effects of sin in our personal lives and in our families and social context. Sometimes people (Christians too, of course) bring a lot of pre-ministry baggage into their marriages, which may, if not dealt with, cause much harm – even divorce. This is the task of ministry: to help people apply biblical truth to their situations, and reap the good fruit of obedience and love. This DOES HAPPEN time and time again, Praise be to God.

“Traditional families are simply one model that Western societies have followed for centuries... they're not "magically perfect," and are as likely to go wrong as any other family model that comes along . . . Since "sin" will inevitably foul up any of the "perfect" things you want everyone to follow, they are not worth considering”
Not at all. To start with, it is not just a “Western” model but a universal model (with the exception of some primitive societies and polygamous variants). But regardless of how universal it might be, it is God’s model – his ONLY fully-approved one, and the one we should affirm and protect, legally and philosophically. The model IS perfect and immutable; the application of it is imperfect because of sin – the going “wrong” you mentioned. America used to know a exhibit, overall, a very good example of marriage and family values and reality. The advent of anti-biblical trends and influences from the 60’s on has helped to bring about the sad state we now see.

I’m NOT fooling myself. You are the one who is fooling himself by asserting that God’s creation model is not absolute and best, and that a perverted, sinful model can bring the blessings of God to a society. It won’t happen! God will not only withhold His blessing upon these so-called “marriages,” but bring judgment upon them and the nation that espouses it. Israel was disciplined and dissolved as a nation state precisely because it departed from God’s ways. America is no different.

“Even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore, every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.” In context, Jesus is prophetically predicting the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD; but the principle of national judgment applies to all cultures, everywhere at all times. The basis of judgment is unbelief – and then the sinful practices which inevitably follow. But it is the habit of rebellious man to ignore God’s Word and His warnings. He arrogantly presumes to diss God, and His Word, even though the hand writing is already upon the wall and the ax laid to the root of the tree. Indeed, “their foolish hearts are darkened.” As per Romans 1.21.

The narrow prism of our own way of life dims us to the much broader array of choices. There are several societies (granted, not all Christian or Jewish, but some have been, such as when men were sent off on long journeys or were simply too important to get involved in what we rather anachronistically would expect as parenting) in which, historically and even today, women of the village/comunity SHARE raising ALL the children together. There have been still others where the MEN end up doing the "lion's share" of the raising, again, often cooperatively.
If groups of heterosexuals can divide by gender to do the parenting, why could not pairs of same-sex partners?

The concepts of childhood and the nuclear family unit are fairly recent phenomena. Before the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, Christian families treated young people as small adults, at least after weaning them. There was no public school. By nine or so, young males were expected to earn their way, get apprenticed and work, work, work. Females became household workers very early. And the marriageable age was much, much lower (Mary herself would have been thirteen or so at the time she would have married).

The exceptions, of course, included the progeny of kings and nobles, who were trained to behave like little monarchs and spoiled aristocrats (really, I suspect the parents never "grew up" themsleves).

I am sure someone will tell me that the Christian Bible specifically mandates nuclear family units and a strangely ideal all-American approach to parenting.