News-Record.com

Excuse me?? The American civilization is so shaky that it will collapse if a representitive gets sworn into office without using a BIBLE? Boy, we're in a lot worse state than even I feared!

OTOH, I seem to recall that the Constitution (you remember that musty old thng, I hope) says that there shall be no religious test made for a person to hold an office in America's government. I sure hope that someone remembers that in Washington before the day of the ceremony.

Do you link to and excerpt this article as an endorsement of Prager's views?

This oath has nothing to do with the fall of any civilization. However, the use of the Holy Bible is part of our nations cultural heritage and the use of the Koran is a shift in the wrong direction.

This also from the Prager article:

"America is interested in only one book, the Bible. If you are incapable of taking an oath on that book, don't serve in Congress."

Breathtaking in its misguidedness.

I agree with Prager totally. And American civilization is shaky, John, not because of biblical Christian values being promulgated, but because they have not been; but in their place the relativistic “values” of atheistic humanism have been instilled in our culture for several decades now – with increasingly disastrous consequences.

It utterly amazes me that liberals are so fixated on removing their nemesis, Christianity, from American culture that they cannot see the obvious and verifiable intent of resurgent, jihadist Islam to take possession of the entire globe. And knowing full well what Islam thinks of (and does to) atheists, gays, feminists, Jews and any religion other than Islam, why libs think for one moment they will be treated by the Imams with benign acceptance and admiration is beyond comprehension. KEEP DREAMING !!! – while you aid AL Qaeda and company in the eventual take-over and dissolution of these United States. Apparently libs and the ACLU will support anything at all if it waters down or diminishes Christian influence – even if it means their ultimate demise. Keep sawing on that limb, dudes.

Letting a Muslim take the oath on a Koran at this time would be, as Prager pointed out, like allowing a Nazi to take the oath on Mein Kampf in the middle of WWII, just to appear magnanimous and truly liberal. Sharia law, and our Constitution and Christian heritage are utterly and irreconcilably incompatible. Because leftist atheistic liberals have no absolute moral compass and transcendent law system, they apparently seem compelled to allow anything and everything in these areas in order to validate their god-less, relativistism – regardless of the implications down the road. This shows a total ignorance of the dynamics of spiritual truth and cultural realities.

Do not think for one nanosecond that the Islamists do not have a desire to subvert and take over the U. S. - and all Western democracies. It is public record. Ellison’s testing of the waters of American and Christian resolve is seminal. If he wins, we have opened the Pandora’s Box of spiritual confusion and corruption. It is time to affirm America’s Christian heritage and commitments. If we do not have the clarity and guts to do so, we will have laid the foundation for the destruction of our Republic and way of life. If you refuse to see that it is based solidly upon biblical and Christian principles of law, truth, justice, love and freedom, you have your head in the sand.

So I guess you have no problem with a Caliphate of America. No wonder the jihadists do not fear the West any longer. Why worry about our vaunted “shock and awe” when we are content to hand them our culture in a daze of liberal ignorance and naiveté? They are well aware that the resolve of the Christian West is the ONLY thing of any consequence standing in the way of their global ambitions; and can only be elated and incited by its compromised and liberalized condition.

“Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme,” people. Prepare your hearts for a modern revival of true biblical Christianity in power and great glory! Tis the season!

Article VI, US Constitution: "The Senators and Representatives...shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Everyone clear on that? No religious test shall ever be required. Swear, or don't swear, as you wish.

"I guess you have no problem with a Caliphate of America."

You guess wrong.

"And American civilization is shaky, John, not because of biblical Christian values being promulgated, but because they have not been; but in their place the relativistic “values” of atheistic humanism have been instilled in our culture for several decades now – with increasingly disastrous consequences."

Nikos, I don't recall saying anything about "biblical Christian values" being a problem for this country. OTOH, I think you are as wrong as ever about the issue of relativism. Our Constitution is a purely secular document for some very good reasons. Reasons that the many Christian men who signed on to it agreed with 200+ years ago, and which become ever more important as we rush today toward a new Crusade.

Beware the lessons of history, Nikos. The Crusades were not the best move ever made by Christendom.

" it is of no consequence what America holds as its holiest book; "

Wrongly implying America to be a christian nation.

" America is interested in only one book, the Bible."

That's not what our constitution says.

"When all elected officials take their oaths of office with their hands on the very same book, they all affirm that some unifying value system underlies American civilization."

And that qualifies as an unconstitutional governmental endorsement of one religion over all others.

When the Constitution was written the prohibition of a religious test was founded on the idea that no one be required (test) to be a Presbyterian, a Quaker or an Anglican, etc. The issue was drawn because of the recent War of Independence with Great Britain, where tests and state church issues were rampant.

Many groups came to these shores to escape the establishment of one denomination over another, not to abandon the Christian religion: quite the opposite. The idea that ANYTHING goes in the realm of belief for our leaders was nowhere in the crosshairs of the test clause.

There is more to our national historical experience than the Constitution, as great as it is. The underlying Christian traditions and influences were actually far more important than, and prior to, the Constitution in framing the ideas of responsibility, freedom and moral character. The laws and principles of justice embedded in the founding documents can be directly linked to the Scriptures. Even Deism and rationalism were dependent on an orderly law-based universe, where absolutes were known and respected - morally as well as scientifically.

I do not see taking the oath on a Bible as a "test." It is merely a key cultural tradition that indeed declares that Christianity and the bible are the unifying and foundational truth-source that binds our nation together historically, culturally and spiritually. It declares that one is swearing his fealty and devotion beofre the Great God of the universe, and will hav eto answer for any transgression His divine Law and the derived principles embedded in the Constitution. Without this unifying and solemn element were are consigned to the confusion and conflict of relativism and multi-ism. We are already hamstrung enough by this phenomenon.

Who ever said anything about a "Crusade," John. I in no way want to go to a Muslim nation and force them to do or belive anything! I DO want to keep them from power and influence in MY nation and culture, becuase I consider Islam a religious heresy, anti-Christain, and a threat to our way of life. It is agressive, legalistic and usurpacious. The Crusades were not the greatest thing in Christian history, but neither were the rapacious conquests of Islam during that era either. I agree that there was a lot of exagerated fear and spiritual ignorance involved in the entire Crusade phenomenon, but these factors and many other negative ideas were ubiquitous during that time. The Crusades no more define Christianity than Stalinist oppression defines socialism.

If you don't want an American Caliphate you had better wise up. Today an oath - tomorrow Korans for eveyone! They (leaders) are deceptive, determined and oppressively legalistic. No atonement, no grace, no Messianic love. Don't be like the frog that found himself a slowly-boiled dupe.

"There is more to our national historical experience than the Constitution, as great as it is."

The Constitution is our governing rule book, Nikos. If you think it needs to be changed, go ahead and write to your representitives to ask that it be changed. Otherwise, live with the rules as they are written.

"I do not see taking the oath on a Bible as a 'test.' "

And yet here you are, wanting to keep a person from taking his office -- to which he was freely elected -- because he wants to use something else. You're not fooling anyone, Nikos.

"I DO want to keep them from power and influence in MY nation and culture, becuase I consider Islam a religious heresy, anti-Christain, and a threat to our way of life."

You ever watch "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" You know what you sound like to me? I bet you could guess if you've seen the movie.

You are engaged in needless fear-mongering, sir. This man was elected, and if he swears on a book that he considers the most important one in his life to uphold and defend the Constitution, I'll trust that he'll do his job as well as any other politician who took the same oath before him.

If he doesn't, then he should be removed. But let us not pre-judge this person, based only on his chosen religion.

Interesting subject, liveley discussion. One thing missing: this blog's author.

" It declares that one is swearing his fealty and devotion beofre the Great God of the universe, and will hav eto answer for any transgression His divine Law and the derived principles embedded in the Constitution."

Which is why the sixth article of the constitution expressly forbids any such action from taking place. This is not a christian nation Nikos. No matter how badly you may want it to be so.

You are being deceived, my friends. You think its all about this one man and his quest to take his oath on HIS favorite religious test. It is not! It is about the further erosion of this nation's identity as a Christian nation and the values that the Word of God has bequeathed to all its people - whether you see it and admit, or not.

It was simply assumed and agreed ubiquitously during the first century and a half or so of this nation's life that it was a Christian republic. Despite the fact that the Declaration and Constitution were crafted so as not to establish any particular church as official, God was mentioned many times in various ways; and everyone knew which God it was and which Savior stood behind it as its inspiration and sustainer. The nation was born and bred in a decidedly and self-conscious Christian environment. This is indisputable history.

And since secularists and atheists, et al. are thoroughly relativistic, and have no theistic spiritual commitments and no absolute moral standards, and have rejected God and His Son; they have no wherewithal to resist spiritual darkness and deception. They are like naïve little children being led to their doom by whatever Pied Piper comes along: Muslim, Communist, new agers – whatever. They just refuse to see the huge handwriting on the wall, that Islam is intent on nothing less than taking over ASAP. They do NOT return your maudlin sentimental sympathy. They are laughing all the way to the White House.

If you can’t see this you can’t understand why it is imperative that the Koran not be equated with Holy Scripture in our legal system or anywhere else in our culture. The Europeans are just now beginning to see the truth – but perhaps to late. If the Muslims don’t vote themselves to power, they will reproduce themselves there in the not too distant future. And you can rest assured that all atheists, Christians and Jews et al. will be utterly disenfranchised, or worse. Either you see it or you don’t.

"You are being deceived, my friends. You think its all about this one man and his quest to take his oath on HIS favorite religious test. It is not! It is about the further erosion of this nation's identity as a Christian nation and the values that the Word of God has bequeathed to all its people - whether you see it and admit, or not."

What do you really want, Nikos? Separate but Equal accomodations for all Americans? Christian and non-Christian water fountains? A new constitution that spells out that we will use the Bible at all public functions, and that only card-carrying, state certified Christians can ever be elected?

Or would you just prefer that all of us who don't believe in your version of God just go somewhere else and leave you and your fellow Christians to run the place unmolested by differing opinions?

You talk about seeing Islam as a huge, deadly threat to America, but you say you don't want a new Crusade. That really doesn't sound consistent, Nikos. If Muslims are all ready to desrtoy this country and nothing will stop their evil scheming, what other course is possible except for all-out war and ethnic cleansing?

If you could clarify this for me, I'd feel a lot less confused over what you're saying, dude.

"The Senators and Representatives...shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Interesting. I wonder what the reaction would be if an atheist were elected as a senator and asked to enter office with an "affirmation" as spelled out in the actual constitution? Would this also be seen as a step on the road to national self-destruction?

" Would this also be seen as a step on the road to national self-destruction?"

Some people think we're already there.

I just did a litle research of my own and ran across a column that definitely caught my attention.

[url]http://www.reporter-news.com/abil/op_columns/article/0,1874,ABIL_7981_5193015,00.html[/url]

"In fact if Prager had done three minutes of research before making a monumental fool of himself, he would have discovered that Jewish officeholders have taken oaths on the Jewish scriptures; that Christian officeholders have refused to swear oaths because oath-swearing violates their religious principles; and that the swearing in of members of Congress doesn't involve the use of any religious text."

From the link above:

"But I haven't even mentioned the most astounding detail of this shameful incident: Prager himself is Jewish!"

Odd. A Jew who thinks that everyone should be required to be sworn into office using "holy text" that Prager himself doesn't consider sacred! I wonder if Prager and other like-minded Jews are succumbing to some weird form of Stockholm Syndrome?

I'm also reminded of Uncle Ruckus from "Boondocks." But we won't go into details on that.

Well, there are many facets to this issue; but the main one for orthodox Christians is that if Jesus is who he says he is in the Gospels,(and He is) and as protrayed in the Epistles and Revelation, then there is no alternative but to honor Him, and to offer the Goods News of His atoning grace to all poeple, and to disciple all nations in the Law/Word of Holy Scripture.

Either He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, or He is not. For true Christians to believe and act in any other way would be to deny the truth of Jesus' Messianic reign and the core doctrines of their redemption. God the Father has given the earth to His Son and He will see that it is finally and pervasively under Christ's Messianic rule.

This is nothing new, it is the ancient Apostolic and orthodox Faith. Conflict is both promised and inevitable. But it is not a war of tanks and guns, but of Gospel proclamation, biblical teaching, cultural transformation and loving service. ALL other concepts of life, truth and governance are either ideological error (Humanism, modern philosophy, atheistm, etc.) or heresy/apostasy (liberalism, Islam, cults, etc.).

Islam honors law, but is legalistic, and has no historically embedded atonement for sins, and all the graces and gifts that accompany the new birth. Much to its shame, modern Churchianity has grievously departed from God's Law and has become compromised by liberal denial of its core truths, charismatic emotionalism and dispensational fantasies. If it is to face the challange of the new century it must become radically reformed, renewed and re-committed to the Faith "once delivered to the saitns."

The incursion of Islam in Europe and America, and the dominance of atheistic humanism in our educational institutions over last few decades is God's punative and corrective judgment for America's denying His Son and His Truth.

Would that we could only turn the clock back to before the humanist Renaissance, and revel once more in the glories of Medieval leeching, flat-earth know-nothingism and general kowtowing to the religious orders, the divine right of monarchs, and the superstitions of mob rule. Them was the good old days.

So, now Keith Ellison is a jihadist? Well, if dedicating yourself to serving your fellow American with honor and pride makes you a jihadist, we could use a whole bunch more. You weaklings who write stuff on blogs that you know nothing about are pathetic. I would like to see your so-called facts held up to academic scrutiny. Read the Koran, instead of the anti-Islam blogs, and you might get a true understanding of what motivates the millions of Muslims who reside peacefully in America.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot.
Visit www.jesusthemuslim.com for an eye-opener.

Seef wrote:
"You weaklings who write stuff on blogs that you know nothing about are pathetic. I would like to see your so-called facts held up to academic scrutiny. Read the Koran, instead of the anti-Islam blogs, and you might get a true understanding of what motivates the millions of Muslims who reside peacefully in America."

Greetings, Seef! Thanks for writing in and adding a new point of view. BTW, I have read the Koran, and understand the Muslim religion at least a little. And I do agree that most American Muslims are in a situation very similar to Christians, in that extremists are helping to demonize the mainstream, which is completely unfair.

Take care... and I hope you can participate in this forum some more. I think I'd find your opinions interesting and fun to respond to.