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What's the big deal? Only those who desire to control a majority of people will see this as a problem. Those are the people who think of themselves as christians, but yet support our troops getting murdered and mamed. Hypocrisy at the highest level, so other than the fact that she is a muslim and black, in those peoples minds, it is a disgrace, but why? Superior wanna-be types have to control something to make up for their own insecurites.

I think the whole idea of "swearing on a Bible" is superstitious silliness, but if Christians feel it makes a difference in the court, I wouldn't stand in their way. So I don't understand, if I can have a live-and-let-live attitude about their views in this matter, why they can't have the same attitude toward those who feel the same regarding their own "holy books."

I hope the court sees the heart of this matter and rules properly. We need to just get on with the real business of the courts and leave this matter behind.

Doesn't really matter what book you swear on anyway. If a person doesn't want to tell the truth, the book won't make any difference.

The fact that there is any debate or controversy in this matter shows why we are in deep dd as a culture. It is just the end result of the gradual, but “progressive” descent into unbelief, spiritual rebellion, relativism, and multi-everythingism. We are no longer a vibrant, unified Christian nation, but have become an effete mish-mash of every conceivable ism, ideology and idiocy imaginable.

We have become a fat, decadent old hog being picked to death by a horde of piranha, whose driving mania is to fill their own particular belly/cause. No mind if it is contrary to the Word of God, no matter if it is immoral, no matter if it is false religion. These concepts have been systematically and relentlessly neutralized in the minds of Americans today through the schools, media and entertainment industry. And so, now, since we stand for nothing, we fall for anything.

It is important that we do not open the door to Korans, Bhagavad Gitas, Little Red Books, Scientology manuals, et al. only because the Holy Bible is God’s divinely-given truth and standard for all men, at all times, and in all places. We are doing everything possible it seems to dishonor, disenfranchise and debunk the loving God who sent His only Son to die for our redemption: blindness and ingratitude!

We have been privileged in this nation to be a nation formed and sustained by God’s Word, and have thus been the recipients of His gracious blessing and providence. To the extent that we continue to slide into the pit of idolatry and error we will steadily lose it all. Muslim foot baths in men’s toilets today – a Mosque on the Mall tomorrow. That’s why this issue is important. But our atheistic, left-wing judicial system seems hell-bent on making it happen.

Nikos, if you want America to be a Christian-only nation, you're going to have to overthrow the government. Because freedom of religion is pretty much a bedrock of the country's values, and you won't change that with anything short of a revolution.

If you're going to have true freedom of religion, then you're going to have to deal with non-Christians as your fellow citizens. I suggest you plan on dealing with them peacefully and with at least the appearance of tolerance.

Nikos, Why would a muslim swear on the bible?

No, Nikos, we were never a wholly unified Christian-only nation. Shame on you for discounting the contributions of many important believers of other faiths (not to mention Thomas Paine, ardent atheist).

"Benjamin Sheftall, a Jewish Englishman...became one of the staunchest (American) Revolutionaries. He and his son helped supply the Continental Army and were captured along with 186 American soldiers. The Sheftalls were interrogated but refused to divulge where American supplies were hidden and were thrown into prison and denounced by the British as “very great rebels.” This was the same language used by the British Crown to denounce the signers of the Constitution.

"Another Jewish Englishman, Francis Salvador, arrived in the neighboring colony of South Carolina, in 1773. He was elected to the first Provincial Congress of South Carolina and became a fighter for the Revolutionary cause. When the British governor refused to recognize the new Congress, the colonists began to arm themselves. In revenge, the British encouraged Indian tribes to massacre colonists. Salvador raised a force of five hundred men and led several attacks against loyalists and their Indian allies. During one such attack he was badly wounded, unaware that the Declaration of Independence, which he had passionately urged, had been adopted. As he lay in the woods, he was discovered by Indians and scalped. Salvador was one of the first Jews to die defending the new American nation."

(http://mideastoutpost.com/archives/000252.html)

Would you prefer governments local, state and federal to declare unequivocally that the only accepted standard for all turth, whole truth and nothing but, is the Christian Bible? Which set of approved books? Only in English? Which translation? Have theologians "improved" their translations over the years? What about words that don't translate from one language to another fully? Any particular set of margin notes you'd like to accompany them? Talk about your slippery slope!

Maybe you'd simply like Congress and the states to pass an amendment to the Constitution rescinding the part of the First Amendment guaranteeing freedom of religion, Nikos? Would that be wise? How would you enforce it?

It is NOT my intention to foment oppression or persecution of the foloers of any particular religion or non-religion in our nation. I would certainly NEVER seek to do so by force or coercion. My argument is theological, not practical or political.

While I do believe, as any citizen may, that my faith, the Christian (Messianic) Faith, is God’s only revealed plan for atonement-redemption, life and future planetary government (spiritual principles – not governmental units/nations), I fully submit to our nation’s policy of tolerance of religion - tolerance meaning no governmental interference or oppression.

However, I do assert that Christianity and Biblical Law is THE basis of the American governmental and cultural system. I certainly acknowledge that many persons of varying theistic or religious persuasions have contributed to our nation and culture; but the BASIS and driving moral, ethical and religious force in the nation has always been the Judeo-Christian Faith, sometimes true to its scriptural calling, at other times failing. I simply deeply regret that we are abandoning that glorious inheritance for a mess of PC pottage.

Eventually, in His own time and manner, God will exalt His Messiah as spiritual King over all the earth, and “every knee shall bow” before Him. In the mean time, God himself is allowing false religions to continue; but in time they will be superceded, as religious systems, by the Kingdom/Church. The Church, however, is FAR from ready to assume such responsibility; and so, God continues to allow things to continue as they have been. However, it is not for Christians to accomplish by force what only God can and should do. We amy persude, but not impose. So, tolerance protects human life, and allows time for further evangelism. It is contrary to the ethos of biblical Christianity to force anyone to become a follower of Jesus Christ.

We have been tolerant as a Christian nation from day one; but that tolerance was NOT seen as a national acceptance of the equal validity of Hinduism, Islam, witchcraft, Confucianism, et al. We were generally self-conceived as a Christian nation and culture, and tolerance was seen as tolerance of various denominations and variants of Biblical religion (non-establishment), not as allowing ourselves to become a pot pourri of false religions.

As far as your Jewish citations, I really have no problem with Jewish (the theistic, believing sort) influences, as the Christian Faith is based squarely upon the OT, its Law, spiritual verities, and Messianic vision. The situation at hand in this article regards the considerable culture-wide pressure that Islam is exerting on the home front to eventually control our nation. If you don’t believe that, you’re totally naïve and unacquainted with world-wide Islamic aspirations (Philippines, Africa, Europe etc.).

Islam is NOT a true religion; it is a counterfeit that borrowed from Arabic culture, Jewish and Christian scriptures and practices – all cut-and-pasted together by their conquering genius founder. It is not some benign contributor to the ongoing progress of the American ethos, but rather an exceedingly aggressive and dangerous force, set to radically alter our culture.

To allow the Koran (or any other text) to replace the living and true Word of God as the standard of truth-telling in any American court is an attack upon our Christian heritage and a gross affront to the Triune God. It is equivalent to the Jews setting up foreign gods in their temple. But I don’t expect you guys to see it that way. I guess we’ll continue to be the witless frog in the pot, awaking to our fate only when we are boiled in the foul PC brew to a shriveled mass of relativistic, multi-everything jellyfish.

"However, I do assert that Christianity and Biblical Law is THE basis of the American governmental and cultural system."

Well, that leads to a very interesting question, that I have asked many times over the years, to no avail so far. How can you say that Biblical law, which starts off with "You shall have no other gods" forms the basis for our government, which enshrines "Freedom of religion"? The two concepts are polar opposites.

Further, Biblical law states that government is defined and run at God's orders, yet the Constitution starts off with "We the people... do ordain and establish this Constitution." There's little resemblance or logical connection, other than by pure structural necessity.

Mypia apparently strikes even free thinkers. Context, my friend, context! Our law system and culture grew out of a manifestly Christian mileiu, and laws and policy and cultural trends were highly influenced by biblical truth. Of course, there were other influences that shaped our culture, but the dominant one was the Christian Faith. No credible historian denies this, or can.

Operative words there are "grew out of".

Yeah, isn't it great that we grew out of morality, righteousness, literacy, honor, strong stable marriages and families - into divorce, broken families, drive by shootings, school yard murders, illiterate graduates o failing schools, collegiate massacres, porn everywhere, STDs galore, AIDS, infertility, ad nauseam. Some growth!

When exactly was this golden age you posit, Nikos? The hygeine, mass poverty, child labor, subjugation of women and slaves, and highway robbery of olden days (pick your century) is hardly fit for nostalgia.

I posited no "gold age," and certainly have no nostalgia for the sins of the past. Jesus said to his disciples, "the poor you will always have with you." In context, I do not think He was saying that poverty is an inescapable reality for all ages to come. Rather, that they, the disciples, were living in an era when poverty would not be alleviated for some time to come. That time is the Kingdom come - on earth as it is in heaven - when the the Messianic order will have been established, and all the spiritual graces and verities of the Gospel promise will flourish.

We have tried to do good in the social arena, borrlowing manifestly biblical values of mercy, caring, love, helping the poor and downtrodden, etc. We have failed because we do not have a biblical moral and spiritual base. So, rather than seeing a flourishing of true good and justice, we have produced a largely perverted counterfeit that is running amuck. More government, more money and more humanistic "solutions" will continue the slide until we see that only through the application of biblical and Gospel truth can it really succeed - longterm. The termoprary fix of welfarism is a telling example.

Evil and anit-biblical philosophies seem to just morph from one age to another, perpetrating their evil results in varied ways. The liberal/socialist innovations (War on Poverty, Great Society, baby killing and moral relativism) have only produced a veneer of "progress" - a facade made possible only by the financial abundance produced by the golden free enterprize goose. The $500K middle class homes filled with flat screen TVs and Beemers of American suburbia may look nice on the outside, but only hide divorces, drug abuse, adultery, confused and flipped-out adolescents, dumbed-down, failing schools et al. Our REAL problem is not these symptoms, but the anti-Christian ideologies that have spawned them.

Admittedly, there was predictable corruption and evil in previous societies, but there was a prevailing, institutional strength of moral decency and domestic order. We will continue to only substitute one form of godless corruption for another until there is grassroots, bottom-up transformation of hearts, homes and learship by the preaching and living of the true Gospel of grace, and a commitment to ordering all of life in accordance with God's moral Law and life-giving Word. But rebel man seems committed to learning the hard way.

Have you read Reinhold Niebhur, perchance?

Yes, some. But your's is too terse a rebuttle with which to interact. In regard to what? His anthropology, his view of sin, social action? What? He has some keen insights, but is too modernist and psychologizing for my tastes. I'll stop and let you be more specific.

Not a rebuttal, Nikos. Just curious. Part of my nature.

I have been reading "Moral Man in Immoral Society" for a seminar. Your comments had me pondering some of his writing there. I think Niebhur would warn his fellow Christians about presuming they could really help acheive a heaven on earth. He turns the "Social Gospel" arguments on their heads. Yet he was in the vanguard of New Deal politics. All attempts at doing good, though, he sees as really being a kind of "lesser evil", rife with unintended consequences; but he still called people to try, to strive to seek the impossible, to even believe in it, despite its illusory nature. He agreed with you, though, that it wasn't so much a matter of "progress" as of amelioration, perhaps.

By the way, although I am not sure a half-million-dollar house is typical for middle-class, I agree with you about consumerism and its deceptions. I think even more of the ills of the vanishing true middle class comes from trying to jockey for the best school districts amidst bidding wars where two incomes are stretched and health and financial independence/retirement savings are gambled away. Thus, the worst consumerist excesses are found not in "failing" school districts, but in the homes of the u-and-coming neighborhoods. The truly poor certainly are equally prone to the allures of advertising and many children are neck-deep in trouble from similar pressures to get and spend, but one might say they are less prepared to beat back the onslaught, whereas you'd hope higher wage-earners with degrees and careers demanding rationality would be able and willing to stop the escalation.

I recommend Robert Frank, the economist, and Juliet Schor. Also the mother-daughter team of Warren and Tayagi.

The judge allows other texts, officially, in Guilford County. Wait for the appeal. I predict the State Supreme Court will uphold. Will it go to the US Supreme Court?

Yes, I fully expect the courts to go in this direction. The inertia of secularism as benign referee over naughty religious underlings is well established in the liberal oligarchy of American jurisprudence. I think it is a spiritually delusional and degenerative worldview, as it shows a diminutive understanding of the Gospel and the key importance of biblical truth in forming and maintaining a civil, just and caring social order.

Niebuhr is very incisive and stimulating, but he lacks a true appreciation for the power of biblical Law and truth. He seems to go awash in the depressive realities of the sinful comglomerate of Western society - too much western philosphy and neo-orthodoxy, and too little biblically based optimism. Human sinfulness, especially at the societal level, is like a vortex of depression and ennui, into which the sensitive observer falls, unless tethered by a strong faith in the Word of Truth. Well, I have to go make pizza now. More later.

Wow, great pizza, if I do say so myself. Without the promise of personal transformation and its cumulative effects in a society, there is indeed no hope. Sin, selfishness and depravity undermine all effrots to bring about a truly benevolent and progressive social order. Niebuhr apprently saw this, but was derailed by liberal/leftist influences in his effors to suggest a fully biblical answer.

Socialism and big government oversight will fail every time in the long run. The Great Society and War on Poverty were highly touted in thier day, but failed because of the inherent flaws of walfarism.

The idea is not to just give fish out interminably, but to teach people how to fish. Admittedly, a limited fish dole might be necessary while fishing lessons are being administered, but it must be short and planned.

True progress is only possible when people are spiritually renwed by the Gospel from the grassroots up, the Law of God upheld by the courts, and enlightened laws passed by the state. Out nation was founded upon these principles, but we are now in a real quagmire because we have departed from them. I'm not speaking so much of the founding documents, as the general ethos and worldview that existed.

Allowing Muslim and other scriptures to be substituted for the Bible as the truth standard in courts is simply another indicator of our national apostasy and descent into spiritual oblivion. The darkness brought about by the pervasive influnces of Marxist humanism and atheism is slowly plunging a great Christian culture into moral choas and socio-economic decline. We are so far along the path to ruin that all governmental efforts to reverse it will prove too little to late.

Only a true reivival of biblical Christianity can now avert national disaster. Unfortunately I see little evidence that this is happening; certainly the TV religionists are far from it. I hope and PRAY I'm wrong. Even if there is a turn-around in the future, we have some tough times ahead. But, ultimately, "all things work together for good to them that love the Lord and are the called according to His purposes." Rom. 8:28

Requiring the bible as a proof of truth is as silly as the bible itself. How can the Bible be taken seriously when the 10 commandments ignore Rape child abuse and incest, yet the 4th commandment demands that your slaves and COWS get a day off on the sabbath. How can you give cows the day off? Didn't God know cows can't shut milk production down at will? Then there is the slave issue ...

I recommend the declaration of independence or the constitution as a replacement.