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Well, they were right, weren't they? Science is the systematic study of nature using facts gleaned from the sampling and study of nature itself. In science, the final word about the universe is the universe.

Contrast this with the folks who assume that the Bible is the starting point for knowledge, and that when there is any discrepancy between the universe and the Bible, it must be the universe that has it wrong. They can put together some strange fantasy worlds using this notion, but "science" it ain't.

Well, Eric, you know as well as I do that scientists have waffled, falsified and just plain blundered MANY times across the centuries as to the nature of certain aspects of the universe: Piltdown, number of planets, big bang/oscillating/steady state, bad-for-you-after-all medicines, etc, etc.

You said, “Contrast this with the folks who assume that the Bible is the starting point for knowledge, and that when there is any discrepancy between the universe and the Bible, it must be the universe that has it wrong.” They are not saying that the “universe” is wrong, but that scientists have and do err. And that the basic truth propositions of the Bible are without error. It is arrogant as well to imply that evolutionary theories are equivalent to the universe.

That being said, I do indeed think that Bible is the beginning and end of all true knowledge of both the universe and the human condition. However, I do not assert that the Bible is a science textbook. Its primary concern is spiritual truth, not experimentation, theory and conclusion. The spiritual truth of Genesis 1-3 is that the universe (including self-replicating living cells) did not just pop into being without a causative mechanism; rather it was generated by the awesome power of a divine Being; that the universe is not some eternally self-sustaining law/matter state that somehow generated itself ex nihilo.

As I have stated many times, I do not think the six-day template in Genesis one is to be taken as a temporal mandate, but rather as a spiritual statement that the universe and the planets were formed by divine means for divine purposes. The time factor is really not the focal point. The 6/7th day imagery is an obvious affirmation of the Sabbath dynamic in Hebrew thought and life – a key theological idea in both the OT and the NT (Hebrews four et al.).

Micro-evolution/adaptation changes can easily explain the various fossil and geological records. The macro-evolutionary assertions of evolutionists are fraught with thorny and inexplicable issues, which are answered by ID. It is entirely possible to fully accept the creation THEOLOGY of Genesis (with and old earth view) and the entire Bible, and still be a Messianic, orthodox and passionate believer in the Creator. Neither you nor any evolutionist can PROVE which proposition of the origin of all things, of life, etc is absolutely correct. Now, can they? The idea of a Prime Mover, a loving God and a compassionate Redeemer makes good sense and satisfies the longing of the soul for redemption and restored relationship.

In my opinion, the 27 million could have been much better spent in other areas. I think pressing the six-day imagery of Genesis one as being literal actually harms the true nature of its message. I am a conservative, plenary inspiration, orthodox Christian, and so I do highly advocate opening up the dialogue in public schools to include other ideas about origins, etc. If atheistic evolution can’t stand the scrutiny, how can it possibly lay claim to being the absolute, unchallengeable truth? I do not think the Genesis 1 passage itself must be presented (given our adamant secularism today) but at least there can be questions and theories that do scientifically challenge “orthodox” Darwinian dogma. Wouldn’t some good old competition hone the scientific skill of ALL concerned? At least add the questions, concerns, and competing views of evolutionary scientists themselves!

Evolutionary theories do not pretend towards unchangeable truth...just recognize that change itself is one major truth of existence and ongoing growth...

So religion "satisfies the longing...for redemption and restored relationship"?

This may be because "the universe" is not out there to "satisfy" us. It seems very convenient to have a theology and god figure that satisfies these longings...makes one immediately supsicious such ideas have been invented by people to satisfy said longings...from whatever psychological source they arise.

This museum is hardly original:
Fred and Wilma kept Dino as a pet...

I�m not sure how authoritative Flintstonian theory is, but it at least proves (given the stature of modern media commentary) that dinosaurs and humans lived together in blissful symbiosis. Thanks, Alice, for affirming this truth.

The focus of the Bible is not on the age of mud, rocks, tress and molecules; but on the magnificent human consciousness and its relationship with the Creator. Thus, the content of the Scriptures, from the very outset, is on the essential nature of this relationship, its interruption, and its redemptive resolution. It is crystal clear from the things people enjoy and care about (love relationships, beauty, metaphysical speculations, happiness, etc) that we are primarily concerned about the same things the Bible is. But even scientific facts take on the nature of wonder and beauty if seen as the ultimate handiwork of the Supreme Being of all time and eternity, rather than some nameless, inexplicable belch of nothingness � for which it takes an enormous amount of faith to even imagine.

German theologians (although I do not necessarily buy into all their speculations and deductions) proposed two views of history. One they called �heilsgeschichte� (salvation history) and �historie� (scientifically observable and quantifiable fact gathering). Biblical history, they said, is not primarily concerned about the latter, but IS VERY concerned about the fallenness of man; and so, is focused primarily on the temporal unfolding of man�s �heil� (wholeness, restoration and salvation) � the protoevangelion (Gen. 3:15) leading to Messiah�s atonement (John 3:16) � and the culmination of history in the eventual �coming� of the Kingdom of God on earth.

It is MY belief, (using their handle, if not their theology) that the linguistic means employed by the writers of Scripture (heilsgeschichte), under the inspiration of the Spirit, were designed to convey true truth about man�s existential dilemma and God�s divine plan of redemption. It is well understood that poetic and figurative language can plumb depths of meaning that newspaper and academic lingo cannot.

Thus, while Genesis 1 is �prehistoric,� Genesis 2 on is �historie� � although expressed in terse, yet factually accurate language, sometimes inserting symbolic and figurative terms, in order to stress certain hard to grasp truths. The Deceiver (Satan) is pictured as a serpent (SERAPH in Hebrew from which seraphim is derived), for example, to emphasize his supernaturally stealthy MO. And so, while figures of speech, peculiar to the ancient world are employed, they are purposefully used to convey accurate spiritual truth. While extreme literalists may miss the depth and subtlety of this MO, unbelieving liberals and humanists miss the truth entirely in their cynical, condescending caricaturing.
�This may be because "the universe" is not out there to "satisfy" us.� Of course the �universe� (inanimate, purposeless mater-evergy fluctuations) is not out there to satisfy us. You could travel to the farthest Galaxie and never find soul satisfaction. But the divine Person of the universe and all evernity is precisely in the business of satisfying his creatures. �In thy presence if sullness of joy and at they right hand are pleasures forever more.� We were purposely created to be satisfied and full of joy and happiness. Jesu, Meine Freude!
�It seems very convenient to have a theology and god figure that satisfies these longings...makes one immediately supsicious such ideas have been invented by people to satisfy said longings...from whatever psychological source they arise.�
It would, if God had not given us His Word, which traces the problem from its very inception in the Edenic paradise to the present and beyond. With its multiple authors, varied expressions, lofty moral precepts, and consistent emphasis on man�s ultimate redemption and happiness, it powerfully debunks human invention and manipulation. Such is not the case, for instance, with the Koran: a basically one man, one shot deal.
I bet you have longings that go beyond what�s for din din and what�s on the tube tonight to titillate your soul. ALL people want happiness, love, beauty, transcendence, peace etc. � unless they have become so crushed and ruin by sin that they are without natural affection and hope.
I personally testify that I was totally driven by a desire for ultimate satisfaction and happiness in my early years; but when God revealed his love and peace to my aching soul I was filled forever with what St. Peter jubilantly called, �joy unspeakable and full of glory.� So, my psyche was involved. The whole human person is involved. It�s an all-encompassing healing of the sin-sick soul.

I do have "longings" for beauty and peace, Nikos (at least, I am pleasantly surprised to encounter moments where I find them), but they are satisfied without recourse to metaphysics. Do I long for "ultimate" or "absolute" peace, beauty, etc., let alone "transcendence"?

No. The cold reaches of space do not threaten me. Not setting impossible objects, such as "pure happiness", which are unattainable, is the best way to avoid being wrung out about everything that does happen. Because the people I love and places I enjoy and things that provide me with beauty are here, in this single life I will ever live, transcendence is not necessary.

Oh, sure, it's nice to "transcend" the daily grind on occasion, but there's plenty of art and music and poetry that suffices for me, along with the smiles and "natural affection" exchanged with my wife and child.

Or with most anyone, which is why I have spent many years as a professional actor/clown and artist. In fact, I don't even have to witness the smile or hear the thoughts of someone looking at one of my works to gain some satisfaction that a moment of happiness or genuine human connection can be made. That's enough. No angels on high, no afterlife reward. My "soul" is hardly sick. Frankly, I cannot logically grasp "having a soul". My engaged living, though, is vital and strong.

The hopes I harbor are for this-earthly health and avoidance of accident for everyone...though there are some whose demise from natural causes would be a boon before they inflicted harm on others. (Since that isn't always in the cards, we must still keep a defensive posture to preserve life and freedom, which means I am no pacifist, either.)

Freddy, I am glad that you find happiness in the things the Scipture says one should: wife, child, beauty, life's work. For many, who are not engaged in the more degnerative practices of sin (adultery, sexual perversion, drug addiction, crime, etc.) normal human happiness is certainly possible. I rejoice in all human happiness, whenever and however it is found. But the fact remains that there is more than truncated and limited human happiness. I do not believe that man is truly satisfied until he comes into the ultimate relationship of eternity with his Creator and heavenly Beloved.

There is a realm in the human soul that goes wanting until this reunion occurs. The Scripture itself declares that man can find a measure of fulfillment and happiness in the normal realtionships nd affairs of life. (Ecclesiastes) God intended this be so. (common grace) But there is a dimension of the human Imago Dei nature that yearns for fulfillment, and cannot rest until it is found.

Fallen man tries to fill it with intellectual pursuits (philosophy, science), artistic expression (beauty, personal statement), business enterprizes, political power and many other titillating endeavors. But as, stimulating and satisfying as these things may be in their own right, they are woefully inadequate to fill the void filled only by the Divine.

This inner fulfillment is not acieved by the religious emotionalism of Roman image and saint worship or pentecostal free-for-alls. It is achieved by the simple act of knowing God through the new birth, and living it out in everyday acts of love and truth. God dwells in the midst of His people by the omnipresent Spirit; and transcendence is achieved by our shared love and joy. You are right to rejoice in the love of family and friends. This is biblical. But there is more beyond that.

Human beings, as wonderful as they are, are fickle and frail and truncated. And art can easily degenerate into sophisticated existential pity parites, and so on with all human pleasures.

And then there is sin (the transgression of God's life-giving principles); which either utterly robs people of the simple joy of transcendence or dulls and limits it. The common testimonies of people who genuinely experience the new birth that comes by faith in Christ confirms my case: "I felt true love for others for the first time, the stars were brighter and the grass was greener, God was so real and close, I was finally at peace, the Scriptures just came alive with meaning and power," etc. This is the true transcendence which the Father gives through the Son in the power of the Spirit.

The wonder and magnificence of this reality is often muted and obscured by religionism, error, human pride and sin within the Church. But the Truth is not coterminous with the Church. The Truth of God's Word and Gospel stand pure and inviolate, while the Church is the mass of imperfect (thought redeemed) saints, growing, struggling, failing, becoming, loving and forgiving, and transcending.

When I finally came to the realization that my faith could not be placed in human failure and imperfection (in many Christians I had known), but only in Jesus Christ alone, I came to faith and into the Kingdom of God. Paul: "We preach Christ and Him cricified." The message is Christ and His atoning power, which is the ultimate and true transcendence, as it reunites us with our estranged Creator and Lord and fills us with His very Spirit of joy and peace.

Like I was, I feel that so many people are angry at God (their convenient caricature) and resentful toward the failures of Christains (or so-called Christians) that they cannot simply look honestly at Jesus Christ and the Word. Every encounter with the Gospel becomes adversarial and not simple, open and honest.

That's it. I can't and sholdn't say more.

I feel no great void needing to be filled. The things I mentioned suffice for me. I recognize no soul within me or that "is" me...and I do not hate any sort of deity, which I also find no need for. I don't mind others who do, though, if it does not unduly impinge on my own freedom to be who I am and think as I do.

I have to believe the succor of family existed in Cro-Magnon, and even, it seems in our benighted cousins the Neanderthals. The Christian and Jewish bibles do not have a monopoly on familial happiness.

I do agree art, like all creative endeavors, can and does reflect the less-savory aspects of its authors. That doesn't mean there isn't plenty out here worth attending to which often provides the sort of "Aha!" experience you claim exclusively for the "born-again" Christian. Others find it in nature hikes, scientific exploration, or seemingly quotidian daily life. The difference is in "where" one is "transcended", to put it awkwardly.

"Simple", I am afraid, is sometimes used to mean "as you are supposed to see things", from one pre-ordained point of view.
No, I do not read any philosophical/religious or other historical or normative text "simply". Why should we abandon critical thought and reflection?

I feel no great void needing to be filled. The things I mentioned suffice for me. I recognize no soul within me or that "is" me...and I do not hate any sort of deity, which I also find no need for. I don't mind others who do, though, if it does not unduly impinge on my own freedom to be who I am and think as I do.

I have to believe the succor of family existed in Cro-Magnon, and even, it seems in our benighted cousins the Neanderthals. The Christian and Jewish bibles do not have a monopoly on familial happiness.

I do agree art, like all creative endeavors, can and does reflect the less-savory aspects of its authors. That doesn't mean there isn't plenty out here worth attending to which often provides the sort of "Aha!" experience you claim exclusively for the "born-again" Christian. Others find it in nature hikes, scientific exploration, or seemingly quotidian daily life. The difference is in "where" one is "transcended", to put it awkwardly.

"Simple", I am afraid, is sometimes used to mean "as you are supposed to see things", from one pre-ordained point of view.
No, I do not read any philosophical/religious or other historical or normative text "simply". Why should we abandon critical thought and reflection?

Hey you

Hey you.

I don't believe you have to call the Biblical references in Genesis "Flintstonian". If we concert our thinking to realize that the creation of the earth is found in Genesis verse 1a.

"In the beginning God created"

And the following six days of creation are a proclamation of the RESTORATION of the universe, solar system and earth (whatever), made necessary by the tactical ventures of those creations that rebelled (Satan and his angels) against the Creator (God). "And the earth was without form, and void" .......wasted the heavenly bodies..

The Earth needed RESTORATION. "And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters..."

This relieves anyone (and you know who you are) of the necessity to correlate the dinosaur (no matter how enticing and excitedly mentally titillating) and the human being. They didn't need to co-exist.

Stop crying a moment..... and consider the above.