News-Record.com

"He told the priest he had never been a believer, so why belong to the flock? "A flock that included me as soon as I was born without my consent," he said."

basically this gent is saying he was 'born into salvation"....all one needs is to be born catholic and you are heaven bound.....this is a great tool used by Satan to undermine the Gospel message. my wife's side of the family are catholic and the last thing they would ever want to discuss is their faith......they simply say " my faith is a personal thing that i don't doscuss or share"......so much for spreading the good news !
what a stranglehold the catholic church has on its parrishoners. over one billion strong and i wonder just how many actually believe in Christ's atonement - most that i personally know are bible illiterate. how sad :-(

"If you want to leave a faith, why would you care that your name was still on a roll somewhere?"

Well, there is a matter of personal integrity for one thing. When I became an atheist, I wrote to Immanuel Baptist Church to ask them to remove me from their membership roll.

Besides that, it really bothered me, knowing that my name along with many others, was being used as a pad to the SBC's multi-million "member" list so that they could claim to be the largest denomination in the country. I wanted no part of that action. Made me wonder just how honest all those other churches are about their membership numbers. I mean, how many "inactive" members are on any given church's roll?

"He told the priest he had never been a believer,"

"basically this gent is saying he was 'born into salvation"....all one needs is to be born catholic and you are heaven bound"

Buz, please explain to me how you reached this conclusion after reading the first sentence above?? It would appear that you're having some serious reading comprehension issues here.

rSnaKe,
apparently you have no backgroud knowledge of the catholic faith. and of course you would focus on the exact wrong part of the quote.

here was my focus.................
"A flock that included me as soon as I was born without my consent,".................

the flock he was referencing was the catholic church and THEY were INCLUDING him into their plan - even without his consent. it is fairly common knowledge that catholics believe they are born into the faith (ie salvation) and mostly they believe they need to be baptised, do confessions once in awhile, give money to the church, hail mary's, rosaries etc. in order to be heaven bound. imo many are willingly ignorant and willing to accept whatever their church tells them to believe (up to the point where it may infringe or cramp their lifestyle, i.e. birth control, penance, etc.) but many others outside the rcc are treated and act this way as well.
so rsNakE i may occassionally have a reading comprehension problen from time to time but apparantely i'm not the only one, eh ? !

Buz is having both reading comprehension problems and he's also suffering from a lack of knowledge of catholicism.

What the person who wished to be removed from the church rolls wa referring to is that he was BAPTIZED as a catholic as a baby- no choice in membership in that church; no ability to refuse to be counted a member due to that baptism- an event in which h did not choose to participate.

Really. I figured you'd be in tizzy over the catholic church's policy of infant baptism / sprinkling since it's different from the usual protestant version featuring kids and teens and adults hopping in the swimming pool.

"basically this gent is saying he was 'born into salvation"....all one needs is to be born catholic and you are heaven bound"

Since he admits he had never been a beLIEver, he most certainly would not consider himself "born into salvation". What really gets me about the whole article though is how the church actually sends out priests for a "face to face" meeting with people that want their names withdrawn from the church roles. I wonder how many people they've actually talked into staying on the register and how much good it actually does, other than boost their numbers that is.

Buz forgets the controversy of the part of "good works" in "salvation", a key component of Protestant disagreement with Catholic doctrine. So, it takes more than going through the motions of individual sacraments for Catholics to enter heaven, by their teachings (I am also an ex-Catholic...once, as a boy, wanted to become a monk and took some studies in that direction). By saying he had been included by being born into the flock, I believe the speaker means the same thing all of us experience by being born and raised within socially-inherited forms of belief. I may be wrong, but don't Protestants mostly assume babies go to heaven if they die suddenly? Perhaps even the unborn? Granted, Pope Benedict only recently realigned the teaching on "Limbo". I myself don't see a problem with those who need religious belief practicing baptism of small children. It assuages people's fears. Heck, with all the stress new parenthood brings, any way to lessen it which fits your belief system is a-ok. It isn't materially preventive, as vaccines and carseats are, but since it hardly damages the child, why not?

It's a whole other matter when it comes to conscientious decisions of adults about how they wish to be understood and their own self-identity. I can see Eric's point about integrity and not wanting to aid and abet the evangelical cause by leting one's name be used unwillingly/unwittingly. I share similar views. Still, I remain, at this moment, an inactive member of my childhood church...though they stopped sending calendars years ago.

I had vaguely heard that one could somehow get one's name off the Catholic rolls. I have not, because I had several close elderly relatives who were very deeply religious --- one, the most recent to die a few weeks ago, was a former nun. They are all but one gone now. I have no real contact with him, and when I see him at a huge reunion next month, it won't be necessary to bring it up. Knowing Uncle Walt, he would respect my choice.

I would not have wanted to hurt the others by seeming to publicly insult the name of the family, members of their diocese/parish for over 150 years, as they may have seen it. They would not have wanted to hear out my current beliefs.

(Though I did have at least one conversation with my grandmother late in her life. Another brief exchange with her, after I survived a bolt of lightning hitting my car: She said, in her best fake Irish brogue, "The Divil's tryin' to git you", ...I said, "Either him or the other fella, but they both missed.")

I was not aware of the stipulated "face to face" meeting, but that is not bad at all. I respect it; no one should throw off their beliefs without ample consideration (my cogitations have covered over twenty-five years at this point, including string debate with highly respected scholars of religion and philosophy, and a few fine men and women of the clergy). It's not as if they were changing clothing casually for different weather. If anyone sincerely holds God-beliefs, I would expect them to show concern for those who don't, and to want to come to grips with the heart of the matter.

It will be interesting to hear what sorts of things the priest will say or what actions he may do. Will it change my decision? Unlikely. I can't imagine any new evidence or argument he could bring up I haven't wrestled with and rejected for sound reasons.
But, while I dot not profess or believe in any supernature, I am also open to discussion that could, ostensibly, precisely offer such evidence/arguments.

fn,
a wonderful post ! yet perhaps you missed my point(s)..... "they believe they need to be baptised, do confessions once in awhile, give money to the church, hail mary's, rosaries etc. in order to be heaven bound" - this is the "work" part of the catholic faith that in conjunction with thier born into the faith equation, which they feels secures their heavely abode.
your post demonstrates a latitude which others who post her do not have, mainly that you are not completely closed to the notion that there is a God and that if evidence were shown you would consider its probability.
i think eric's comment about being removed from a church roll is legitimate - why any church would want unbelievers name on their rolls is beyond me.

alice what i am in a tizzy over is people ( of the faith ) who have borrowed faith. what i mean is that so many christians never read the scriptures to 'own their faith' thru study. many simply allow others to read, study and meditate upon scripture and then sit back in their pew to be fed someone elses version of the Word (thus their faith is borrowed). many go to college for years to prepare for their respective careers and read a plethora of books but will not read one book (i.e. bible) or spent one minute reading scripture in preparation for their Christian career. it is so much easier to let someone else tell you what, when and who to believe in than learning it for yourself - and actually becomes a tool to blame someone else if you mess up !! i chose to study to show myself approved.........

Buz

Calling it a "Christian career" seems to hint you agree there are "works" involved, too. I have to take issue, however, in ascribing a lackadaisical attitude to Catholics' prayers and tithing. Besides, that is hardly what I was taught was meant by "works": charity begins not just at home, but by going out into community, joining the saints in quest to better the lives of their fellows, with a humble heart. Not far, really, from the notion of a bodhisattva.

Unlike the Calvinist idea of the elect, Catholics do not think any single person is preordained for heaven or hell. If you want to scorn such "to the manor born" attitudes, there are other faiths more along those lines.

This man in the article actually misspoke by saying the RC church included him as soon as he was born. Until he had been baptized, he was not yet begun in his "career" as a Catholic or Christian, "officially" (ritually). And , really, it isn't until after receiving the host of Eucharist, engaging in Confession and Penitence, and ultimately committing to Confirmation that one is recognized as a fully-cognizant member of the Church.

Since the most significant portions of gray matter in the frontal lobes have not developed until even later, sometime after 20 years old, even, it may make more sense to have such "confirmation" postponed. I know my wife speaks of her own "witness" or some such tradition in the Baptist tradition at age 7. Seems kinda young to have a good grasp of the ramifications of religion. Ah, but we are exhorted to be as little children, aren't we?

Finally, thank you for the compliment on my attempt to keep an open mind. Be aware, though, the standard for proof, evidence and argument I would expect to be convinced by have never been met by any theology I have ever encountered. That includes the bolt from above.