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You say you heard a child ask this on the radio -- but you didn't tell us what reaction the child got, or what sort of answer was given.

I know a lot of Christians who aren't intimidated by people who doubt what they believe and who think that asking "certain questions" should never be forbidden.

And I know some Christians who would consider this other group to be as much "infidels" as I am.

�I know a lot of Christians who aren't intimidated by people who doubt what they believe and who think that asking "certain questions" should never be forbidden. And I know some Christians who would consider this other group to be as much "infidels" as I am.� Eric

Well, I�m definitely in the former category (although Eric probably doesn�t think so) who welcome any and all questions regarding the divine � from anyone, young or old. I was delighted when my children asked such questions, because I saw them as teaching moments. I�m reminded of the Passover question by the child, which prompts a teaching on the reasons for the celebration. So, question-asking is part of God�s plan for catechizing and forming children in things pertaining to life and godliness.

And there�s Deut. 6, which encourages situational instruction in the duties and truths of the Covenant. Every question, no matter how pithy or thorny, shows a natural curiosity about existence, its origins and purpose. They are merely springboards into relating God�s eternal truths to all life-issues.

I now have the same privilege with my toddler grandchildren as I had with my children, to answer their many incredible questions, especially about their great Savior and His life-ordering Truth. The three year old already knows some catechism and has a budding relationship with Jesus. I taught my daughter, who now teaches him. It doesn�t get any better, for a Christian parent. Sheer delight!

I remember a comment from a Spirituality professor. If the mere questions of me, a finite human can topple the infinite God; then what kind of God am I worshiping?

That answers the question of "questioning/questioning God" for me!

Shalom

Is there any rational answer to that first question, other than "Men"? If we rephrase it : "Whence does (a/the) god arise?", does it prompt any other answers? If the being called god is sui generis, what was the nature of the energy with which it coalesced/created itself?

fn,
you question is predicated on human logic.....somehow my God is beyond that.........

" He hath made every [thing] beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end."

it's kinda like the question "where does the universe end ? do we find a brick wall and it has a sign " END OF UNIVERSE".... we then ask....what is on the other side of the wall? some things are simply unknowable (at least to me).

God claims to be the BEGINNIG and the END........

If a question cannot be logically even asked (by a human), what basis do we have for any understanding, rather than sheer dumb-foundedness? This entity posited as god must be co-existent with reality, must it not? Or is it unreal? Or somehow beyond real? Surreal?

Or, do you suggest we dismiss the child's questions out of hand?

I know from posts, buz, that you and those who share your faith are certain god is not "worried" in the sense that non-believers might somehow topple him; does god worry, though, that challenges to the aforesaid logical inconsistencies might lead others to question or disbelieve? What is it for such a being to "worry"? How is that expressed? What are its stages and possible directions?

Now, I have to say, I have no way of evaluating answers to these questions, because the existence of such a being in itself defies my own limited mind's ability to conjure a reality in which it would ever fit.

fn,
of course we have to approach issues with 'human logic' we are after all human - what i meant was that human logic (imo) cannot capture, distinguish or comprehend the mind of God. therefore it is futile to expect answers to all things, in my experience that is. does God worry?......i don't believe i'm qualified to correctly answer that question. i do believe God 'cares' greatly for His creation, especially for His children....perhaps His caring could be seen as worry to some. the scripture makes it clear that the pot has no claim against the potter, for the potter (God) has full control over what He desire to accomplish - to many this is a hard concept....that God can do (and does) whatever He desires, even to making one a vessel of dishonor. to these many, they would say that this makes God some kind of unloving monster - to me i say it demonstrates God's power and glory. my prayer for myself is that God will continue to mold me (into the image of His Son, my Savior) and hoping that i will not 'harden' while i'm on His potters wheel.
" what basis do we have for any understanding".....
fn, this is the question which separates humanists from believers. when my logic and intellect seem to run dry......that is the time that my faith (i.e the realization of the things i hope for and the assured confident in things i cannot see are real in spite of what the world says. heb.11:1 - my paraphrasing) - this is what provides me comfort when i cannot logically find comfort.

“If the mere questions of me, a finite human can topple the infinite God; then what kind of God am I worshiping?”

- obviously not “worshipping” anything at all. And the only thing that is being toppled is this guy’s chances of knowing and worshipping ‘in spirit and in truth” the God who created his now cold and empty universe. This quote only proves the biblical phrase, “The fool hath said in his heart, ‘there is no God.’ “ The unmitigated presumption that some amoeboid, quark-brained human could “topple” the infinite God is beyond credulity. The millions of temporal attempts across the ages to “topple” the infinite Creator have, and will, utterly fail; demonstrating that the persistent problem with fallen man is his pride and arrogance.

Somehow rebellious man gets a big thrill out of shaking his impotent fist in the face of the very God who has provided for his eternal redemption and joy. It’s the astounding absurdity of cutting the rope of the life raft that has been thrown graciously to the hapless, sinking victim. But I guess there’s nothing that feeds the ego like intellectually “taking out” a god. The problem is that embracing the morals, values and ideas of atheism brings the organic judgments of God upon unbelieving man. The moral and temporal universe works only one way – God’s. Man’s MO has always, and ever will, produce nothing but ultimate misery and ruin, “because

what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are WITHOUT EXCUSE, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools” (Romans 1.19 ff.)

As Buz pointed out, infinity virtually screams, “There is something/ someone absolute and incomprehensible beyond the wall. The human mind is designed by God to function within the visible and comprehensible universe – beyond that, it simply short circuits, shuts down. Faith is the normal spiritual means by which God is to be known. This faith is not guess work, irrationality or without data; but is a divinely given mode of perception, that transcends the visible universe and peers into the infinite – but without fully comprehending it. It is sufficient, nevertheless, to know God and to have a true relationship with Him. I know God truly and dynamically, but I cannot comprehend his infinity or immensity. There is NO physical, test tube “proof,” for the infinite Spirit. As Jesus said to doubting Thomas, “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

As the passage above from Romans 1 declares, God has shown Himself to man by the very grandeur, complexity, wonder, beauty and infinitude of the physical universe. Sin however, blinds the spiritual eyes and alienates the soul from its Creator. And because God is a Spirit, as Jesus taught in John 3. 23 & 24, He cannot be truly known through physical observation alone; but must be perceived through spiritual means – i.e. revelation. So, trying to prove God by debate, evidences and such is ultimately futile. Only though the power of the Gospel, received with childlike faith, can God be truly revealed and known.

The “spirituality professor” has obviously not had this revelation, the necessity of which offends the intellectual pride of alienated man, who then simply “declares” that God does not exist – all the while using the glorious brain of his imago dei to conjure up reasons why this is the case. John says, “He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.”

So, topple on, finite ant men – get your perverse strokes. Have fun in your empty, steel-cold universe. Or better, repent and believe and you shall have true spiritual Life, “joy unspeakable” and a “peace which the world cannot give.” I know, from experience, which is the better deal! Soli deo gloria!

Nikos, point proven in that posting. Thanks!

Shalom

Using what's written in the bible to prove what's written in the bible is true - doesn't work for many of us.

Alice; You speak my mind!

Another of Nikos' patened poetic paeans.

I do not think there is any single "atheist" set of morals or ideals. One likely common value amongst non-theists might be the value of the freedom of the human mind.

I flatly deny the "infinite" (if any such quality/quantity/thing exists, except as poetic metaphor) is "screaming" anything at all, let alone that something/someone absolute created existence while not being part of existence. To declare as if every person must by fact of being alive want or expect to hear such screams doesn't make it "universally" true (or even locally, clearly).

Finally, it is interesting bus, you refer to the pottery metaphor. Many, many potters and other artists (even athletes, I hear) feel strongly that the pot (paint, stone, ball...) DOES exert control and mold itself through the hands of the artist. Perhaps Platonic (non-theistic) Form accouts for this. Or pantheistic/naturalistic spiritual realities. Or maybe projected fantasy.

One thing that always makes me wonder about the "potter/pot" analogy is that there is a fundamental difference between an inanimate chunk of clay and a living, thinking being. A chunk of clay cannot have any innate "rights" to life and liberty. To give humans the same status as a pot of clay is to remove our claim to any such rights. I think that this, above all else, is what makes the "monotheist" religions so very dangerous in my opinion. Their basic premises -- all of them -- is built around slavery and the assumption that all humans do not deserve any rights.

As Ingersoll once said, the great words of liberty were never uttered on the craggy slopes of Sinai or on the shores of Galilee or in Mecca. It took over a thousand years before we started to even consider such a strange new concept. And here are Buz and Nikos, telling us that such ideas should be dropped... and I flatly refuse.

But eric, you are free: free to either choose the path of sin and damnation, or free to choose what's good for you. The latter path is clearly delineated.

To understand the biblical concept of human freedom/personal liberty one must go directly to Jesus and the NT Scriptures, not the historical development of the Church, which fell, from time to time, into great misunderstanding of the truth that sets free. The Church fell into the very thing that Jesus taught destroys it. And Paul rails against the same thing, declaring that religionism (works-based legalism) is bondage (Galatians 4). It took the Reformation to return the Church to the freedom of the Gospel of grace and justification by faith.

There can be no true freedom while in the grip of sin and disbelief. The delusional "freedom" of the atheist and sinner is the most greivous of bandages. As Messiah declared, "You shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." And he was not speaking of the "truth" of humanist man, or of false religions. It was and is to be found in a Person, the One who said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life." And that comes ONLY through the new birth (John 3) which comes through humbly believing the Gospel.

It is a radical change of being, a quantum leap of consciousness, a paradigm shift of perception. "I once was blind, but now I SEE! All the mental wrangling, vain religionsim and chanting the names of false gods is utter futility.

The mind itself is not free while in the grip of sin; it is only full of contradiction, angst and endless questing. It is only in the light-filled realms of the Truth that the mind finds its true home, and at last has the peace of mind that allows thoughts that satisfy, edify and elevate the soul - "the glorious liberty of the children of God." No long the endless searching that passes for "free thinking;" but the the Sabbath rest: the "peace that passes all understanding."

P.S. - Ingersoll was sadly and damnably mistaken. It was ONLY on Sinai and the shores of Galilee that the words of true and comprehensive human liberation were uttered. He was spot on about Mecca though. Mixed bag, I guess.

"It was ONLY on Sinai and the shores of Galilee that the words of true and comprehensive human liberation were uttered."

I must have missed that. I'm pretty sure the Bible doesn't have anything in it about freedom of religion or of speech. What about freedom from slavery? Protection against cruel punishment? No? Then it seems that the "comprehensive human liberation" you're thinking of is lacking a few items that we fortunately found time to add to our constitution. I'm glad we have been able to move past your version. It's weak, frankly.

The state of the nation at present only PROVES the true weakness of your relivistic MO. It is humanism that has produced this mess (divorce, drugs, perverion, failing schools, ad nauseam.
God's moral Law is the only truth system that offers lasting justice and moral reality. The Gospel deals decisively with sin, the main purveyor of both personal and cultural bondage.

When were the halcyon days of this country, during which it was such a wonderfully free (for all people) place full of outstanding Christian behavior? Every age of the nation has been rife with similar troubles, or at least some get traded for others. The state of the nation today is not a direct result of humanist concerns and practices. Especially as the vast majority profess to be Christians!
Human Reason is ot good or bad in and of itself. The powers of choice we are allowed will produce ramifications that can later be analyzed as having been far or short-sighted. There are costs to every benefit. Should we instead abandon the goals of an educated electorate?

Nobody said that this country EVER displayed a near perfect, City of God type culture. But all I know is that when I was growing up we read the Bible every day in my school and had a brief prayer (not that this practice was the sole, or even the greatest cause)- and there were no surveillance systems or hall cops, no drugs or school yard massacres. I didn't even know what Marijuana was until I was in college. One of the things that made the greatest generation great was the Faith that permeated thier minds and spirits - as imperfect and limited as it was. A lot of things have slipped into the cesspool of unbelief and immorality in the past fifty years - a lot. It's not that the "halcyon days" were so great in terms of biblical standards, it's just that things are so much worse today. Very imperfect before; very corrupt today.