News-Record.com

Stories like this do tend to make one wonder about people. I'm currently reading a book on psychology called "Denial of Death." It has some interesting bits about group dynamics and how membership in gangs tends to relieve people of their normal tendency to process moral imperatives, in favor of following the wishes of the gang's alpha figure.

Pretty scary stuff...

What, exactly, did killing these students execution style get "them"? Robbery doesn't require murder, does it? And not murder a la Capone or Gestapo. Grautuitous violence and mayhem gets these young people nothing but jail, terror (for they reap as they sow) and contempt. I doubt someone will go so afrr as to excuse this behavior, if the teen did it, as just another acting out by a troubled youth. This style of killing is cold and calculated...the sort of thing perpetrated by sociopaths. There are no known cures for sociopathic brains, no matter what race or class. Ted Bundy come sot mind. Wealthy, handsome, utterly devoid of caring. We can only institutionalize and throw away the key. Heavy, heavy meds may lessen the aggression, but not the thoughts and desires, I believe. It certainly won't give them a conscience.

The mental appratus and character of someone who would kill in this way are akin to the two murderers/rapists/arsonists in Chesire, Connecticut. I have family there and they along with the entire state are reeling.

We live in times as dangerous and the worst fly-through-the-night London assassins, and nearly as frightening as the cloak and dagger days of Europe's many nightmares. When madmen and vicious gangs are maurading the quiet suburbs, as well as seemingly safe areas of our cities, in addition to the numbing hellish inner-city low-grade internicine bloody battles, my only plan is to retreat into rural invisibilty. And buy a gun.

“is this what happens when we as a society think of the poor as 'them' -- as in, I'm working for mine, let them get theirs the best way possible?”

Biblically, the dole is only for those who are palpably helpless. The Scriptures are full of exhortations to minister to the truly poor and deprived (gleaning the fields in the OT, and collections and giving to the truly destitute in the NT). It is also replete with a full range of principles of godly economics: a high work ethic, justice to workers, a Sabbath rest day, just weights, et al. Lazy and shiftless sorts are exhorted to change and become productive. Today, big-government welfarism has proven to be more of a hindrance and blight for those in trapped in poverty. Programs to educate jobless and impoverished people seem to be one reasonable and workable approach. It works.

The tendency of fallen man, unless motivated by the selfless love of God (a by-product of Gospel regeneration), is to seek personal happiness at all costs – to feed his various lusts: power, approbation, sexual, materialism. Sin, in essence, is a focus upon self at the expense of others. Killing, hate, theft, bearing false witness, adultery; are all attempts to satisfy one’s selfish desires – sexual, material or other. God’s love is all about giving, sacrificing, being faithful, helping out - Golden Rule. It’s sheer spiritual darkness, and lunacy, to deny this and to work against God, the Gospel and the Word.

There are many other causes than poverty for horrendous crimes. Some have to do with the implosive effects of lust-driven music and cultural patterns. Power lust is endemic in gang cultures. The utter breakdown in sexual morality is another prime factor (abortion, dad-less families, divorce, single parents etc). And drugs are, of course, a major degenerative force in all of society. Overall it is a spiraling descent into the mental and moral chaos of spiritual blindness.

Historically, societies always begin to see the cliff ahead at some point, however. The breakdown becomes glaringly obvious to all but the most recalcitrant God-haters. Societies either choose God’s solution of repentance and spiritual renewal, or they choose some kind of stop-gap method of human invention: Communism, atheistic liberalism, big-government programs, et al. None of the latter has ever, or will ever, provide permanent and pervasive answers. Only the Gospel, with its deliverance from the tyranny of sin; and the Word of God, with its principles of godly living in every area of human concern – can provide real and lasting answers.

The incidents in Conn. and Newark, are only the tip of the iceberg of what happens when godly influences that foster morality, justice, love and truth are opposed and suppressed by atheists and humanists. We are, even now, reaping the whirlwind of death, depravity and suffering that sin INEVITABLY brings. No doubt, poverty contributes to crime; but the key to ALL human dilemmas, including poverty, is the Gospel of grace and the Truth of God’s comprehensive Law/Word. It is well known that when poor people are redeemed by the Gospel, they begin immediate socio-economic ascent. Innovative inner-city black churches are incredible examples of this dynamic.

And even though systemic societal factors have to be dealt with as well, the primary factor in the elimination of poverty and crime is biblically defined righteousness. Until we “get it” our sad descent into death and misery will continue. See the cliff yet, guys? What’s it gonna take!

And, regrettably, I still maintain that the Church is largely responsible for our society’s declension because of liberalism, emotional pietism, and dumbed-down theology. She needs to take seriously Jesus’ call for her to be salt and light in the world. “Awake, (Church) and Christ will give you light.”

Nikos wrote his typical blame the atheists and, at the same time, blame the liberal church but iI'd be willing to bet the perpetrators are Christians from birth. and, if asked, will tell you that either Jesus is their Lord and personal savior. or they'll " find him agai" ' while in lockup.

One's a Peruvian national. Probably raised Catholic and then converted to whichever flavor Protestant group showed up in his town handing out stuff in exchange for agreeing that their imported religion was the real deal before he decided to sneak into the US without authorization or documentation.

Boy, Alice; you have a vivid imagination. Unbelievable! And no sound arguments to boot.

Boy, Alice; you have a vivid imagination. Unbelievable! And no sound arguments to boot.

The coreness of a 14/15 year old person committing such a ruthless act as this homicide lies in the home life of said people. Regardless of faith tradition or lack thereof, there was no guiding influence in the home. Therein is the problem. Sure, a home with some form of faith tradition may be the ideal. However, faith tradition does not have the "market cornered" on moralism. Faith traditions are not the only ones that believe that lying, cheating, stealing, murder, etc. are not proper.

Who is to blame in the slaying of these three young people? The person who pulled the trigger on the gun! Who also bears unpunishable responsibility? The family unit of the person/s who pulled the trigger. Remember also, it takes a village to raise a child. When the village has no structure, we see the result. It is not just murder either. There are a host of of happenings that are taking place that society should be concerned. However, some believe that it is only through "faith based systems" that these should be dealt. However, I do not know of many faith groups that are willing to or have the amount of funding to put into place programs that may help. So, the task is left to other entities.

Shalom

“I do not know of many faith groups that are willing to or have the amount of funding to put into place programs that may help. So, the task is left to other entities.”

The problem with your wholly inadequate argument is that the secular humanist ideal of big government utopia-making has been in place since the late sixties, with the Great Society and War on Poverty initiatives. And if our inner cites, schools and moral barometers are any indication (and they ARE) it has been a miserable failure! Welfarism has been seen by virtually every political perspective to be a failure and work-fare has replaced it as a possible solution. And it has worked better. But the real solution is virtue and goodness in the individual soul, issuing forth in stable families, moral integrity, and civic responsibility. You CANNOT impose these inner qualities from above and from without. Secularism is a morally bankrupt system which has brought us to the precipice of national collapse and dissolution.

You are right, Daryle, when you say:

“such a ruthless act as this homicide lies in the home life of said people.” And “some believe that it is only through "faith based systems" that these should be dealt.” [with]

But not just ANY home life. I mean, everyone has a “home life.” But only a virtuous, loving, and spiritually alive home life, based on sound biblical principles, will produce stable and responsible kids. Unfortunately, broken, miserable, fatherless, chaotic and morally bankrupt homes are producing after their kind in America today. The proof is in the pudding, and our pudding is rife with tragically abundant examples.

“Faith traditions are not the only ones that believe that lying, cheating, stealing, murder, etc. are not proper.”

“Not proper!” That’s an understatement. These are evil, destructive and sinful. That’s the problem today. We are soft in these areas, and provide so much wiggle room that people are constantly transgressing. And who says these things are wrong? Well, you have, for one. But why? Evolution? After all, it’s just the survival of the fittest - do whatever it takes to gain the advantage and succeed while other inferior “species” become extinct.

No, I say they are wrong because God, the Creator, has built them into our very nature (Romans 2: 14 & 1`5) and stated categorically in the Law (Exodus 20. 12 ff) that these acts are sinful and destructive – AND human history has PROVEN this to be the case. And atheists and humanists are unable to provide any reason why this is not the case; but themselves obey these precepts lest they and their families fall into ruin and collapse. So, despite their empty verbiage, ALL people, of any sanity whatsoever, agree that there are moral imperatives; differing only as to their source. But man has also proven himself incapable of consistent living-out of these moral imperatives. Hence the Gospel and grace and the Spirit within – which inspires and empowers – though does not FORCE.

And so, not just any “faith-based” upbringing (Muslim, pagan, Hindu); but a Christian one is called for. Not some liberal, shallow or emotionalistic version, but the true, biblical and father-led one.

As John Adams prophetically uttered, “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other.” AMEN. Brother John.

I'm still betting the juvenile defendants who are accused, along with the 38 year old Peruvian, were all raised as Christians. in " Good Christian homes," and will tell you they're Christians.

So what? All that glitters isn't gold. Appearnces can be deceiving. Just because you go to McDonald's doesn't make you a hamburger. Just because people were baptized as infants, or went to church as kids, or claim to be "christian" as opposed to Hindu or atheist, in no way means that the reality of the new birth and indwelling Spirit are there. Your point is thus irrelevant to the situation.

I would say that the chances or FAR better that, even though they MAY be nominal "christians" they were highly influenced by drugs, sexual promiscuity, violent movies, a broken home, gangsta rap, gang culture, and/or any number of secular ideologies rampant throughout our rapidly deteriorating culture - of which this incidnet and other recent horror stories are tragic evidence.

TRUE Christian young men, grounded in the Word and walking in the Spirit, would NEVER have done such a thing, because:

". . . the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

"22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit." (Galatians 5: 19-25)

Alice,you need to read up on what TRUE. REAL, BIBLICAL Christianity is, and not consistently reveal that you are uninformed. May I suggest www.ligonier.org and reformed.org God bless.

Oh Nikos...

I suggest YOU look this up:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

try to comprehend how it applies to your non-stop protestations, realize the illogical nature of your blatherings, and stop showing YOUR ignorance.

Nikos, have you ever in fact read up on what the "no true Scotsman fallacy" entails? That appears to be all of your stock in trade. Of course, Alice's statements are simple speculation, as I expect she'll tell anyone... but your reaction is most interesting. Especially considering how many Christians there are just in this city who would deny that you are a "TRUE, REAL, BIBLICAL" Christian. At least they would while Alice and I are not in the immediate vicinity...

Oh, well . . .

".....considering how many Christians there are just in this city who would deny that you are a "TRUE, REAL, BIBLICAL"......................

as long as i have been blogging here, nikos has been consistent with his pov - he ALWAYS cites 'criptures' as reference material, he very nicely ties in many of the issues discussed here with a 'scriptural' overview and he confides to us that she trusts, believes and relies on the God of 'scripture' to order his day, to lift him from a life bent on hell, to promise him eternal life with the Father and to give him daily victory........ so (imo) if there are many christians out there who would say nikos is not TRUE,REAL or 'BIBLICAL' - then perhaps THEY have not had a personal life changing meeting with Jesus Christ - because imo nikos is steadfastly committed to the gospel and unashamed in his convictions.
to nikos, i know you do not need me to come to your defense and you are more than capable of wheatering attacks from all sides - just know that i support you in your efforts in providing gospel to this blog and may God continue to anoint your message.

Thanks, Buz. You also are a consistent defender of the Faith. We both have our own backgrounds and perspectives to contribute, and I value your support. Those who oppose the Christain worldview on this blog consistently support and applaud one another, in one way or another. And it is only natural that there would be alies in any debate. But, even so, I'm sure we're not in lockstep with one another on all points, as our opponents are not. But it is always nice to have brothers in Christ to share the load. God bless you in all your life and service to our Lord. Soli Deo Gloria!

that is the great thing about our faith - we need not agree on every theologial point but one...that being that God took the form of man in Jesus Christ, lived a sinless life in 100 % compliance to the Fathers word, offered Himself a ransom for many as a propitiation for our (my) sins and now sits at the right hand of God interceding for us (me)...Amen
Maranatha !!

"that is the great thing about our faith - we need not agree on every theologial point but one... that being that God took the form of man in Jesus Christ, lived a sinless life..."

If that's the case, why do you guys consistently judge others who you've never met or interviewed, saying they're not "true Christians," if you have no clue whether they agree on this "one point"? Do you honestly believe that to accept this one article of faith will automatically lead to all the other views you hold? It doesn't seem likely, now does it?

Eric, enough said! I await the backlash on that one!

Shalom

as often is the case darryl is in bed with the atehist/humanist on this blog ........... unfortunately darryl cannot differentiate backlash from dialogue and can offer nothing more than words of instigation.

eric please by all means point me to a blog where i ever once accused someone of not being a "true christain" based upon them not agreeing with my Christian perspective.

and eric you are uninformed....if a person calls themselve a Christian and believs not that Christ died for our sins and was ressurected, then according to scripture they are not Christian.

12 But tell me this-since we preach that Christ rose from the dead, why are some of you saying there will be no resurrection of the dead? 13 For if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised either. 14 And if Christ was not raised, then all our preaching is useless, and your trust in God is useless. 15 And we apostles would all be lying about God, for we have said that God raised Christ from the grave, but that can't be true if there is no resurrection of the dead. 16 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ has not been raised. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, then your faith is useless, and you are still under condemnation for your sins. 18 In that case, all who have died believing in Christ have perished! 19 And if we have hope in Christ only for this life, we are the most miserable people in the world.
20 But the fact is that Christ has been raised from the dead. He has become the first of a great harvest of those who will be raised to life again.
21 So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, Adam, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man, Christ. 22 Everyone dies because all of us are related to Adam, the first man. But all who are related to Christ, the other man, will be given new life. 23 But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised first; then when Christ comes back, all his people will be raised.
24 After that the end will come, when he will turn the Kingdom over to God the Father, having put down all enemies of every kind. [fn4] 25 For Christ must reign until he humbles all his enemies beneath his feet. 26 And the last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For the Scriptures say, "God has given him authority over all things." [fn5] (Of course, when it says "authority over all things," it does not include God himself, who gave Christ his authority.) 28 Then, when he has conquered all things, the Son will present himself to God, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.

I came to you in weakness-timid and trembling. 4 And my message and my preaching were very plain. I did not use wise and persuasive speeches, but the Holy Spirit was powerful among you. 5 I did this so that you might trust the power of God rather than human wisdom.
6 Yet when I am among mature Christians, I do speak with words of wisdom, but not the kind of wisdom that belongs to this world, and not the kind that appeals to the rulers of this world, who are being brought to nothing. 7 No, the wisdom we speak of is the secret wisdom of God, [fn3] which was hidden in former times, though he made it for our benefit before the world began. 8 But the rulers of this world have not understood it; if they had, they would never have crucified our glorious Lord. 9 That is what the Scriptures mean when they say,

"No eye has seen, no ear has heard,
and no mind has imagined
what God has prepared
for those who love him." [fn4]

10 But we know these things because God has revealed them to us by his Spirit, and his Spirit searches out everything and shows us even God's deep secrets. 11 No one can know what anyone else is really thinking except that person alone, and no one can know God's thoughts except God's own Spirit. 12 And God has actually given us his Spirit (not the world's spirit) so we can know the wonderful things God has freely given us. 13 When we tell you this, we do not use words of human wisdom. We speak words given to us by the Spirit, using the Spirit's words to explain spiritual truths. [fn5] 14 But people who aren't Christians can't understand these truths from God's Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means. 15 We who have the Spirit understand these things, but others can't understand us at all. 16 How could they? For,

"Who can know what the Lord is thinking?
Who can give him counsel?" [fn6]

3 How we praise God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly realms because we belong to Christ. 4 Long ago, even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes. 5 His unchanging plan has always been to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ. And this gave him great pleasure.
6 So we praise God for the wonderful kindness he has poured out on us because we belong to his dearly loved Son. 7 He is so rich in kindness that he purchased our freedom through the blood of his Son, and our sins are forgiven. 8 He has showered his kindness on us, along with all wisdom and understanding.
9 God's secret plan has now been revealed to us; it is a plan centered on Christ, designed long ago according to his good pleasure. 10 And this is his plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ-everything in heaven and on earth. 11 Furthermore, because of Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, [fn2] for he chose us from the beginning, and all things happen just as he decided long ago. 12 God's purpose was that we who were the first to trust in Christ should praise our glorious God. 13 And now you also have heard the truth, the Good News that God saves you. And when you believed in Christ, he identified you as his own by giving you the Holy Spirit, whom he promised long ago. 14 The Spirit is God's guarantee that he will give us everything he promised and that he has purchased us to be his own people. This is just one more reason for us to praise our glorious God.

Paul's Prayer for Spiritual Wisdom
15 Ever since I first heard of your strong faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for Christians everywhere, 16 I have never stopped thanking God for you. I pray for you constantly, 17 asking God, the glorious Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, to give you spiritual wisdom and understanding, so that you might grow in your knowledge of God. 18 I pray that your hearts will be flooded with light so that you can understand the wonderful future he has promised to those he called. I want you to realize what a rich and glorious inheritance he has given to his people. [fn3]
19 I pray that you will begin to understand the incredible greatness of his power for us who believe him. This is the same mighty power 20 that raised Christ from the dead and seated him in the place of honor at God's right hand in the heavenly realms. 21 Now he is far above any ruler or authority or power or leader or anything else in this world or in the world to come. 22 And God has put all things under the authority of Christ, and he gave him this authority for the benefit of the church. 23 And the church is his body; it is filled by Christ, who fills everything everywhere with his presence.

i'll be off painting for a awhile :-)

"and eric you are uninformed....if a person calls themselve a Christian and believs not that Christ died for our sins and was ressurected, then according to scripture they are not Christian."

Well, I understand that. However, the question here in this thread is whether the killers of these kids up in New Jersey qualify. Nikos (the guy YOU are always "in bed with" here) says they can't be "true Christians," and you say the only criterion for inclusion in the club is assent to your statement regarding the nature of Jesus.

So do you join in with Nikos in saying that the killers can't be Christian, even though you have no knowledge of their belief regarding your one criterion? Or do you break with Nikos and reserve judgment? It's just a matter of curiosity for me, as I'm sure you'll understand...

eric,
alice made this off the wall comment ...." but iI'd be willing to bet the perpetrators are Christians from birth." in her vehemence to discredit Christ and His followers, she spews out her rhetoric.

i'll try to answer you as forthright as possible. "if" these individuals call themselves christians from birth (this is a misconception on alices parts - i don't believe anyone is 'born christian' rather they are 'born again' as Christian)and perpetrated this heinous crime, then i suppose only God knows if these indivduals ever made a commitment this His son - however in my heart i find it difficult to understand how a person who has the Spirit of God dwelling in then can commit such a crime.
you come up a little short in your understanding of my comment eric. a profession of faith is the genesis of a life changed - it generally takes the remainder of a persons life to relfect the metamorphosis from death to life. a worm can say he's a butterfly but until there is evidence of his metamorphosis it is difficult to (comprehend (by their fruits you shall know them).i can only find one death bed confession in scripture that shows an individual being granted eternal life ( and this instance is enough evidence to demonstrate Gods providence and mercy ) - this being the repentant thief on the cross next to Jesus. though i would never encourage anyone to live their life dishonoring God and turning away from His Mercy and at the last breath call upon Him for salvation. to sum it up - in my heart i doubt these guys were Christians, this is my opinion based upon my own transformation and what i believe the scriptures teachs concerning those who belong to God - yet i do not judge them in the sense of condemning them. i am encourged through scripture to judge righteous judgements.

one last point - i have slept(i.e. supported his pov) with nikos on many occassions and find him very comfortable - but as he mentioned earlier - we are not in lock step theologolically - so in this sense we have kicked one another out of bed on occassion. he is a brother in Christ whom having never met, i love dearly.

"one last point - i have slept(i.e. supported his pov) with nikos on many occassions and find him very comfortable - but as he mentioned earlier - we are not in lock step theologolically - so in this sense we have kicked one another out of bed on occassion. he is a brother in Christ whom having never met, i love dearly."

Fair enough. I apologize if I unfairly lumped you together in this case...

eric, at least you are man enough to apologize for making a mistake.

I can only wonder why people get upset because I take umbrage with those who wrongly and unjustly make accusations/groupings with seemingly unwarranted/non-evidenced statements. I know eric and we have an understanding of where one another's belief structures are founded. Therefore, we are able to dialogue without resorting to word usage that can be construed as offensive.

buz, if my comments are [instigating], I can only imagine what those of others can be viewed. I only wish that others would dialogue with some of the rationale and reasoning that eric does, myself included. It would be a nicer blog if done so.

Shalom

"those who wrongly and unjustly make accusations/groupings with seemingly unwarranted/non-evidenced statements.".........

what specifically are you referring to darryl?

" I only wish that others would dialogue with some of the rationale and reasoning that eric does"....

how rational is the person who claims to have been a Christians (saved) for twenty years - then comes to realize that there is no God?..... through human reasoning and intellect, that's how. both of these are useful when used in harmony with the word of God but become an enemy to the cross when separated from it.

Without belaboring the point, there are numerous passages in the Scriptures which point out that not all who cry "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Buz's mentioning of the passage where Jesus says, "You will know them by their fruits" concerned discerning whether a claimant was a true or false prophet. There are always those who claime to be God's messengers, but their life and behavior do not reflect it.

The behavior (fruit) of these guys who murdered the three students relfects the fruit of a bad tree. This is God's litmus test, as it were. If a person is an enlightened and Spirit-filled disciple of Jeuss Christ he is a 'good tree" who will then produce good fruit. If he produces bad fruit, then we know him to be a pretender. These guys, whatever their background religiously, are NOT Christians. Period. They were bad trees.

And, by the way, I have never accused any individual of not being a true Christian. I have simply stated my opinion regarding what are true or false interpretations of Scripture or gross departures from established Creedal orthodoxy. There is, of course, wiggle-room within the bouonds of orthodoxy. But, as Buz, pointed out; there are key or core doctrines that MUST be in place for salvation to occur, and then right living out of the Faith. St. Paul points this out quite well in Galatians 1:

"I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed."

Any system that distorts or denies the Gospel of grace is NOT Christian. And Christians are under obligation to call them on it. I have dealt with theologies on this blog, never personal attack - unless it was an avowed public heretic, such as John Spong.

Jesus said this......." And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven".

as i pondered what darryl said "at least you are man enough.......". it seems this statement is in direct opposition to what Jesus said (i.e. to become as little children). maybe we're so busy trying to be manly men, with our pride and ego that we can't seem to experience the child like faith that would lead us into a relationship with Christ. if you were ever a parent you understand what faith and trust your young child entrusts you with - you understand how important you are to that child and how they would blindly follow you into destruction because of that trust/faith. that is the type of faith that Jesus says we need to have in our Heavenly Father, faith without hesitation or question - obedience to His commands and the assurance that all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose, Amen.

Okay, so do I understand that if Christians do bad things they're not really Christians?

Nikos wrote:
"Buz's mentioning of the passage where Jesus says, "You will know them by their fruits" concerned discerning whether a claimant was a true or false prophet. There are always those who claime to be God's messengers, but their life and behavior do not reflect it.

The behavior (fruit) of these guys who murdered the three students relfects the fruit of a bad tree. This is God's litmus test, as it were. If a person is an enlightened and Spirit-filled disciple of Jeuss Christ he is a 'good tree" who will then produce good fruit. If he produces bad fruit, then we know him to be a pretender. These guys, whatever their background religiously, are NOT Christians. Period. They were bad trees."

So if they repent what they did and ask Jesus to come back into their hearts, are they not forgiven? Do they not get to go to Heaven?
Was their "license- to- Christian" merely suspended during and after the ( murderous) lapse and is it reinstated once they ' remind themselves that Jesus wil forgive them and that He's their Lord and Savior?

I'm trying to figure how that " we're all sinners and Jesus died for our sins and NO sin is too great for Jesus to forgive" speech squares with " they are NOT christians. They were bad trees."

When Buz wrote:
"we need not agree on every theologial point but one...that being that God took the form of man in Jesus Christ, lived a sinless life in 100 % compliance to the Fathers word, offered Himself a ransom for many as a propitiation for our (my) sins and now sits at the right hand of God interceding for us":

That doesn't mention that same person had to be enlightened and spirit -filled to be Christian- your so-called " litmus test"- only that they believe certain things.

You guys REALLY need to make up your minds.

well alice,
you finally figured us (Christians) out....... one lies and the other swears to it....

but really alice you have no clue (your ignorance is evident.." ask Jesus to come back into their hearts - as if He He was once there - remember it was YOUR assumption that these guys were christians, not ours) what we are speaking of. your eyes are veiled and your ears are plugged to God's truths. you have perfect eyesight and hearing of the worlds philosophy however.

(....ppppsssstttt nikos - we need to get together and work out our lies so that we sound more credible - smart people like alice see thru our scam :-( ...... i've written this in invisible font so that no one else can see it !!)

Thanks, Alice, for a good, argument-filled entry.

The principle, I believe, is this – in answer to your question. The initial saving experience is just that: entry level, positional, and independent of works. This is called grace: God provides the Lamb of atonement; we are accepted IN Him, and receive all that God has for us on that basis, in time and in eternity. It is at this point (initial faith) that one becomes a “good tree” CAPABLE of producing loving, truthful righteous fruit to God’s glory.

It is what happens after entry into the Kingdom that determines our success in life and reward in eternity. If the tree is not watered and cared for it will produce minimal and even inferior fruit John 15

“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who ABIDES in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered.”

Jesus’ parable of the Seeds is also very instructive here. Only the “good ground” (good tree) is fruitful. So the principle of first becoming a good tree and then producing good fruit is that it is not automatic (the fruitfulness, that is); but is dependent on nurture, instruction and care. Otherwise, we would be automatons and not creatures formed in God’s image and endowed with volition (will).

The NT Epistles do indeed cite instances where those who were professing Christians, and generally accepted by the church as such, departed from sound doctrine, rebelled, sinned, and taught false gospels. And there were those who did things that were roundly condemned by Paul, things that “not even known among the Gentiles.” (i.e. a common occurance) But these were cited as rare exceptions, and as object lessons for others who might be tempted, deceived and drawn away.

So, yes, it is POSSIBLE for those, once redeemed and filled with the Spirit to fall away (apostatize or revert). The issue here is what is normative and characteristic; not what exceptions can occur. Being born again in this world does not erase the memory, or destroy the lust patterns of a lifetime. A new nature is created in the very core of a person’s being, which then becomes the motivating and directing principle in his/her life, giving victory over destructive sinful patterns. If the memory and will were obliterated, there would be no basis for relationship with God, as one having been created in the image of God. This is why Paul, and Jesus, continually taught and exhorted disciples to stay in fellowship, humbly hearing and practicing the Word, partaking of the Sacrament and availing themselves of the means of grace.

Repentance from gross departures from the Faith (apostasy) is presented as very difficult – even impossible.

“ . . . lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright. 17 For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found NO PLACE for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.” (Hebrews 12)

General repentance from occasional, minor sinning is a fact of every-day experience of Christians, who are positionally perfect in Christ, but experientially imperfect and growing in their earthly sojourn. The Eucharist is presented as ONE time that Christians repent and return to holy fellowship with God. I personally repent many times a day, and return to full fellowship with the Lord. “Through many dangers, toils and SNARES, I have already come; ‘tis grace that brought me safe thus far, and grace will lead me home.” (Amazing Grace)

These killers, IF they ever were Christians, had certainly become reprobates. But no regenerate (born again) child of God, who is walking in the Spirit, in fellowship with Him, growing in grace – would EVER do what these guys did. And I doubt seriously that they were ever genuine followers of Christ. But, technically, I suppose, it’s possible - which only means that the exception proves the rule.

To me it's simple. If a person works, that person deserves 5 things, Food, clean drinking water, a walm place to sleep, free medical care, and an education. Most developed nations provide this. Why can't we. There will always be evil in people, but worse is evil in government. It is easy to see why a person will give up on himself when the government has for years. Meeting the needs of its' people is the primary goal of every government. In the United States the lower rungs of society lose ground daily and with it they lose hope, self-esteem, and even faith in the Almighty. Finally, as each rung befor the next gains space people are perking up and noticing. Go Barack!