News-Record.com

Being a Believer with a Libertarian view of secular matters, I am reminded time and again by Jesus to submit to authority (both Heavenly and earthly).
California voters passed Prop22 by a 61% margin, thus enacting the law of the land. That law has now been overturned by judicial fiat.
This brings us to two questions- since it is the will of the people, do activist judges have the moral right to nullify a law without regard to the wishes of the citizens?
Why is marriage regulated by the state in the first place? Is this not the ultimate expression of freedom of choice? What role should the government have in regulating whom we choose to live with? Isn't God the arbitrator of this contract? And if you don't have room for God, isn't your conscience your ultimate arbiter?
If we are to be a country of laws, this is a grievous error.

It bears repeating here that our nation is NOT a simple democracy. It is a Republic, where the Constitution is the primary ruling principle in matters of legal decisions, with the "will of the people" being a secondary mover. You will need to read the actual text of the decision before you can accuse these judges of being "activist." If their reasoning was based soundly on the state and/or federal constitution, then they were only doing the job they are paid to do.

I know it's pretty tough, reading through 171 pages of logic, but you never know. You might learn some worthwhile things about your system of government.

Nancy, thanks for placing something that is CIVIL in the RELIGION area.

GLBT people are not seeking any religious acceptance in the marriage aspect. Rather, what is being sought is acceptance in the eyes of government. I still find it extremely frustrating when people (even those without any official religious connection) strive to bring religious argument into a civil debate! That only gives the populace a glance at what the voting public resembles.

Shalom

When anything and everything is "acceptable," you will get this kind of amoral ruling. When there are no absolute moral standards, bestiality has as much right as GLBT practices to be ensconced in law. The ONLY way that perverted sex can be even considered normal or acceptable is to totally reject the Creator's pronouncements and laws, and to proceed blindly down the slippery slope of moral decay into the most repugnant practices the old sin nature can spew forth. Such acts are not insulated and irrelevant, but inject a moral and spiritual infection into the well being of society, and are always accompanied by other godless and unbiblical practices which, together, bring down the ultimate demise of a society.

A culture and government which decide to ignore God’s Law/Word, forget that, historically, we have seen ourselves as a Christian nation, “under God” – not in the sense that we are actively intolerant of other religious belief systems, or wish to institute a particular denomination as the state church; but that the Law/Word of God provided the legal and legislative standard for all law (especially moral ones) and policy – until the last few decades. I am fully and painfully aware that this is no longer the prevailing view, and that we are now shaking our rebellious fist in the face of Almighty God, making rulings such as this one. We should have never allowed gay marriage to be mentioned in the same breath as holy matrimony.

If this ruling is not overturned, and if we do not roll back all public acceptance of the sin of homosexuality (and other degraded practices) we can expect the judgments of God to fall upon us in terms of economic crises, enemy attacks, social unrest and disintegration, corruption in high places, etc. Righteousness is the cohesive force that binds people together in peace, prosperity and blessing. OT Israel learned the hard way what happens when a people who once honored God turn their backs on Him. “Sin is a reproach to any people.”
You see, divine judgments are BUILT INTO the very fabric of life itself, and are God’s judgments because He designed and created the universe, moral and physical, to operate a way that brings glory to Him and blesses His creatures; the transgression of which organically causes negative reactions. And the very fact that we have a judiciary that would rule in favor of “gay marriage” is a judgment in and of itself. “If you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption.” How true this is, and how rapidly, of late, we are corrupting ourselves as a people. May God grant FULL success to those Californians who are opposing this ruling; and may God grant this nation a comprehensive return to biblical faith and principles. Otherwise, we will surely join Belshazzar as he watched the hand writing:

“God has numbered your kingdom (nation) and finished it. You have been weighed in the balances and found wanting. Your kingdom has been divided and given to the Medes and Persians” (or whoever God will allow to overwhelm us, from within or from without).
Daniel 5. 26 – 28. We are fast losing our freedoms, and may soon lose it all!

Nikos, thanks for the expected and anticipated homily. You keep on proving me correct, I thank you for that.

Shalom

Daryl, please take pity on poor Nikos- since many, if not most married heterosexuals participate in oral )sex ( something he deems " perverted", " repugnant" etc in his lengthy diatribe, since gays and lesbians also do these things), we can only assume either his wife is frustrated and angry and won't speak to him or he's nearly dead from jealousy and frustration and sublimating by writing and writing and writing...

Nikos- the bible is not the " law of the land". Neither is the koran or any other so called " holy book." The Constitution Is ouir law of the land and the CA decision upheld many many previous court decisions across America- decisions which described marriage as a fundamental right; marriage as a cornerstone; freedom of association etc. That you or your beliefs don't support a same-sex couple's right to marry DOESN'T MATTER. This is not a theocracy. Comprende?

Alice: "This is not a theocracy. Comprende?"

I comprende just fine. The fact is that ALL governments on the planet and around the universe (if other worlds with sentient creatures exist - and they may) are theocracies – i.e. under God’s sovereign authority. The ONLY question is: do nations/cultures submit to the inherent theocracy of God, or do they rebel against it. And so it is YOUR opinion – or millions of other human opinions – that does/do not matter. God’s will and God’s Law are immutable and sovereign. Jesus, as the divine corner Stone, said that those who reject and oppose his teachings (OT & NT; including the Law of God) will be utterly destroyed:

“And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.” Matt. 21.44

This “grinding” implies a gradual erosion of their existence. On a national level, it insinuates a gradual and progressive disintegration: economically, socially and governmentally.

No government, or judicial system, is ultimately “legitimate” if it departs from the moral and ethical standards of God’s Law/Word. This NOT based on any genuine, intended Constitutional “right,” – it is sheer legislation from the bench at the behest of the moneyed gay lobby through a process of legal erosion. Man has true and lasting authority on earth only in so far as he governs “under God.” Human authority is derivative, not absolute. We have become a spiritually blind, shortsighted nation, arrogantly assuming that we are beyond judgment, and can do whatever we wish with impunity. How foolish!!

“ . . . most married heterosexuals participate in oral sex ( something he deems " perverted", " repugnant" etc in his lengthy diatribe, since gays and lesbians also do these things)”

It is not the mechanics of God ordained hetero sexuality that is in question here; it is the FACT that people of different genders are doing ANYTHING sexually that is the sin, and therefore under the judgment of God. We stupidly surmise that because judgment fire is not descending upon modern Sodom-fornia that God is not and will not judge this nation. On the national level, it takes longer for judgments to become apparent, because of the scale. An individual may contract an STD or AIDS in one perverted or illicit encounter and experience the almost immediate judgment of God; on the national level it may take decades before it impacts the medical, social, and economic sectors.

We (and Europe) are only now encountering the debilitating effects of feminism and the zero-growth population movement: marital and family decay, too few working young to support a ballooning senior population, the need to import millions of immigrants to bolster our depleted labor force. Every sinful practice has consequences, according to Scripture, and the more we condone and sponsor sin, the deeper we dig our national grave. We may be able to arrogantly ignore divine Truth in the short term, but it will become all to painfully obvious in the not too distant future.

“He who has eyes to see, let him see.”

Parond my typo: "it is the FACT that people of different genders are doing ANYTHING sexually that is the sin"

should read: ""it is the FACT that people of the same gender are doing ANYTHING sexually that is the sin"

like I said.. he's sublimating.

"The fact is that ALL governments on the planet and around the universe (if other worlds with sentient creatures exist - and they may) are theocracies – i.e. under God’s sovereign authority."

Nikos wants no truck with that crap about "government of the people, by the people and for the people." The basic flaw in this mythical "God's authority" business is the fact that God never actually does anything directly - only through his regents on Earth. When they get full political power, they become autocratic, even to the point of despotism.

No, I think I'd prefer to be ruled by a more enlightened form of government. One that holds its rules together using trained judges and a system to overrule human errors whenever possible. As we see happening in California. Perhaps the matter will be referred up to the Supreme Court, and pehaps it will be overturned as the forces of inequality hope. I only hope that if that is the case, it is done with the utmost care in reasoning and weighing the points of law logically, rather than through an appeal to unreasoning fear and bigotry.

I think the good people of CA may be reluctant to vote to take rights away from a given group.
Woe the day when a gay or lesbian couple married in CA moves to the Triad. Heaven forfend- they might move next door to Nikos. Can you imagine passing at the mailbox?

G or L couple " Good morning, neighbor."
Nikos " You dare say good morning unto me, lo you fornicators and perverts?... God’s will and God’s Law are immutable and sovereign. Jesus, as the divine corner Stone, said that those who reject and oppose his teachings (OT & NT; including the Law of God) will be utterly destroyed: “And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.” Matt. 21.44 and yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada etc. "

Neighbors " OMG! the realtor neglected to disclose that defect! "

alice said ................................
"yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada etc. "......... "OMG! the blog editor neglected to disclose her defect! "

nikos,
darryl continually complains about the length of your posts (yet he still forces himself to read them , hmmm?) - alice takes her usual 'no brain' approach and namtac weighs in with a modicum of sincerity.
the world (especialy the usa) is softening to the glbt agenda albeit more slowly than they would prefer.
namtac said "God never actually does anything directly - only through his regents on Earth"............
i'm not convinced this is totally true but i do believe he (namtac) is on to something, in as much as he realizes that God uses His people as ambassador s(which i prefer over regents) to affect change here on earth. something alice cannot fathom is the fact that we as Christian would be in error and totally remiss if we did not speak out against those things which God has spoken out against - in this case the glbt lifestyle. darryl is more concerned with the acceptance of the government than he is concerned with the acceptance of God. - go figure !

I very much doubt that most people are looking at this as only a civil issue -- isn't that why many people of faith are upset? Isn't it because they feel this is against their faith?

But a bigger question: Is it bigotry when your faith says it's wrong (and I think that's the point of view of many in the faith community)?

I consider it bigotry because I think that the urge to exclude comes first, and religion is used to justify that exclusion afterwards. The fact that people who say they follow Jesus and have studied the Bible fall on both sides of this (and so many other issues) appears to me to confirm this idea.

The same thing happened in the struggles to end slavery, allow women to vote, desegregate. I believe that once society as a whole comes to accept the idea that gay people should be allowed to form families on the same terms as straight people, religious justification for that acceptance will follow, just as it followed all those other moves toward equality.

First - Buz, when I see Nikos' name I check the length before even reading a sentence. So with that in mind, please cease and desist from speaking for me as I am able to do that for myself and do not need the provided assistance offered/given.

Second - namtac, thanks for the excellent position raised regarding bigotry and justification for said bigotry. Humanity is good at offering bigotry without justification and then seeking to offer same (after the fact) as has been noted.

Nancy, the problem is that people of faith fail to realize that the right to marry is not a religious right, rather civil. The problem is that far too many people of faith view life solely through their "religious glasses" and see nothing, absolutely nothing without that "religious tint." These people can be found out of touch with the basic realities of the life of the very people with whom they hope to "reach for Christ." Until they are willing to go to where these "untouchables" live, they cannot be reached. When going to said places, the "religious glasses" have to come off to see people for who they are.

Shalom

Nancy, you may or may not be a sudent of history, but your question " Is it bigotry when your faith says it's wrong (and I think that's the point of view of many in the faith community" I only wish Mildred Jeter Loving was still alive to sit you down and tell you that yes, yes it is.

Bible verses were used by " good christian " legislators and judges to interpret the law of the land and discriminate against her.

Mildred was brave, smart, beautiful- and famous. Google her- I'd like to read your opinion.

By allowing the dictates of a religious group to color court decisions and permit discrimination against people.. well, if that's okay, then Sharia law should be a piece of cake if that group gains the majority and influences legislation.

"The same thing happened in the struggles to end slavery, allow women to vote, desegregate. I believe that once society as a whole comes to accept the idea that gay people should be allowed to form families on the same terms as straight people, religious justification for that acceptance will follow, just as it followed all those other moves toward equality."

This is where there is total and fundemental error in your thinking Namtac, et al. Slavery was a no-brainer in terms of moral rectitude - and Christians were in the forefront of efforts to end it. Sufferage was simply a social issue, not a strictly moral one.

Homosexuality will NEVER be in these categories, because it is utterly contrary to the key institution God created to perpetuate the race, mirror His very image, and to bless society. To vitiate this core reality is one of the worst sins possible. In fact, St. Paul even cites it in Romans 1 as the end game of all unbelief and idolatry.

It is NOT a matter, therefore, of equality and justice at all. And sin has no “rights.” It is a matter of allowing a horrific sin to infect the nation, which will be the floodgate through which all manner of destructive, vile and damnable practices will flow. Anyone who has seen footage on TV of a gay pride parade has seen what I mean. It is pure lust. Even if there is a friendship involved, the sin makes it detestable to God, for the reasons I stated at the beginning.

And Namtac, you’re wrong! I DO treasure our form of government. It is a form through which God can rule and reign by His omnipresence AND through His representatives. Tyranny emerges because of sin’s being unrestrained by the governmental checks and balances, such as we have - by God's grace. But any form of government, monarchy or democracy, will become tyrannical if it departs from an awareness that it governs by God’s will, and according to His Law. If we will not have God’s Law/Word as our standard and protector, we will have hundreds of versions of man’s sinful and perverted laws. The CA decision is an example of the latter. It is neither beneficial to our society or legitimate before God – which is the only tribunal that counts!

"This is where there is total and fundemental error in your thinking Namtac, et al. Slavery was a no-brainer in terms of moral rectitude - and Christians were in the forefront of efforts to end it."

Your view of history on this matter is far from accurate, Nikos. Christians were at the forefront of defending slavery during the 18th and 19th centuries, and they used the Bible extensively to defend it. If you read the Bible, looking for any condemnation of the practice of slavery, you will be very disappointed indeed, because it doesn't have any.

So instead of the slavery issue being a "no-brainer," it was a matter that ended up killing half a million Americans, and it is STILL not resolved in the minds of many devout "Bible-only" believers. Just as gay rights will still be an issue for many "Bible-only" believers a century or more after society has changed its mind and decided to move on.

"Your view of history on this matter is far from accurate, Nikos. Christians were at the forefront of defending slavery during the 18th and 19th centuries"

No, it is YOUR view that is skewed and inaccurate. There were MANY Christians in the South that condemned and opposed slavery. Have you EVER heard of abolitionists, or the Underground Railroad! - many of whom were ardent Christians of many denominations? Have you EVER heard of William Wilberforce!!

Nobody denies that Christians have been in error in interpreting and implementing Scriptural truths. That just comes with the territory of fallen minds and motives. There have been numerous times throughout history when churches or individuals did things in the name of Christ, or the Faith, that were simply done in ignorance of Scripture or in rebellion against it – for their own selfish ends. Even Paul had to deal with it in his day. All this Church-bashing verbiage is simply a straw man to dodge the Truth.

And the Bible is replete with anti-slavery statements and stories; not the least of which is the God-ordained, Moses-led liberation of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt – the liberation of the Jews from Babylonian slavery. Com’ on, man: read your history - correctly. And Paul talks ALL THE TIME about how Christ has liberated us into the “Glorious liberty of the children of God.” And there were his efforts to aid the slave, Onesimus:

“ . . . that you might receive him forever, no longer as a slave but more than a slave—a beloved brother, especially to me but how much more to you, both in the flesh and in the Lord.”

And it must be remembered that Paul was not a social activist, but a spiritual proclaimer, who was forced to work within the dominant Roman establishment. Even Spartacus could not overturn the imbedded institution of slavery.

It was the spiritual principles pf Scripture that ended slavery in all Christian societies of the West. Admittedly, it took far too long – but it did happen. Once oppression and sin are imbedded in a culture/civilization it is extremely difficult to dislodge it – as Wilberforce and his American counterparts so painfully found out.

Likewise, if we allow sexual perversion to become imbedded in our own culture and laws, it will be very difficult to dislodge it. There was the sin of slavery, and there is the sin of homosexuality: both wrong; both in need of rejection and opposition.

The gay lobby and its liberal humanist dupes have done a good job of mind-bending the public to accept this very dangerous practice. The fact that our courts have now jumped on the bandwagon only magnifies our dilemma. If the present trend continues, of the glorification of sin, atheism, ecclesiastical apostasy, and socialistic government there can be no redemption for our nation – only further judgment and ultimate demise. I pray God this trend does NOT continue, and that we will turn again to the God of our beginnings and avoid the horrors of going our own rebellious way.

Alice, I appreciate your question and I do know her story. And I wasn't making a judgment. I was simply throwing out a question I've heard many times in this debate.
Some Christians believe that they have as much right to disagree with same-sex marriage or civil unions as others have to support it -- and it's not just a matter of keeping their opinions to themselves. They see these unions as touching their lives as well.
Some Christians also don't see this as the same as Mildred's journey.

Now there are some points to explore.

First, how does the existence of a gay couple living in the vicinity affect any Christian's life? If that couple has a government issued license, what real difference does that make? All it does is give legal rights to the couple -- taxation, property inheritance, insurance and so forth. What's the big deal there?

Secondly, did Christian objections to mixed-race marriages really have a different dimension? Did they not oppose such things on the basis of opposing a decline in society?

Certainly, they have the right to express their disdain for anything their religion says is wrong. But whether their opinions should be the law of the land is a different kettle of fish entirely.

Nancy, what do we do when we get more and more Muslims ( their convert-rate from Christian to Muslim in the US is astonishingly high) and they decide our laws should be governed by Sharia? Getting a divorce will be a nightmare, women won't be permitted to drive... widows will be in deep doodoo if they have no male family members to support them, and it'll be the right of the Muslims to, as you say " that they have as much right to disagree with X or Y as others have to support it -- and it's not just a matter of keeping their opinions to themselves. They see X or Y as touching their lives as well." They'll enact and interpret laws to conform with their book.

People are free to disagree all they want and to tell their church not to perform weddings for whomever ( hey, i'll bet I couldn't marry a black guy in one of those Christian compounds in TX!) but the law should apply to all equally and fairly and not be determined by a particular religious belief.

Otherwise... what the heck- let's let Christian or Muslim belief direct medical treatment while we're at it. . Engineering too - maybe we can use the biblical version of pi for calculations...

"What's the big deal there?" - Namtac

The big deal is that homosexulaity is a brazen denial of God's created design, and consequently a sin; i.e. transgressing the way this were created to be to the glory of God and the blessing of man - along with murder, theft, child abuse, racism, exploiting the poor and defenseless, adultery, et al. Thats the big deal.

We seem to have this absurd notion that what people do "in private" has no effect on anyone else. The fact is that people work, play and interact on many levels and in many ways with others in the community, where their lifestyle is on parade for all to see. Gays have a habit of being very vocal and deomonstrative - sort of in your face. Just the very fact that kids would go to school and say, "my daddies will be coming to the play tonight" and countless other like scenarios.

Gay "marriage" is not, and NEVER will be true marriage in any sense. It is repulsive to even think about - and to have it become an "accepted" social institution has ominous implications for the sanctity and purity of true marriage; which is already in deep trouble.

My suggestion, if you want to avoid Sharia, Alice, is to embrace the Gospel of grace and come to know the glorious liberty of the children of God. If Christians are becoming Muslims it is because they are either not true, regnerate Christians, or they are in churches that are liberal, antinomian or unable to teach and disciple them.
Lawlessness creates a terrible vacuum which people know intuitively must be filled if their culture is to survive. Islam offers a highly legalistic solution - but without grace and true liberty - as their cultures deomonstrate.

Immoral, atheistic, and lawless Western nations are sitting ducks for Muslim legalism and fanatical allegiance.

One thing for sure: there wouldn't be any public gay lifestyles. And if they tried to have a gay pride parade they would probably be executed forthwith.

Oppressive Islam makes our great Judeo-Christain cultural traditions look like paradise. Trouble is, we have abandoned them in favor of amoral, lawless, and god-less secularism, which in doomed to failure.

Jesus said: "I have come that they might have life, and that more abundantly"

Nikos, I think it's a shame that you are so small-minded as to want gays to be "invisible" to you and everyone else in the world. That won't make them stop existing, you know. All the oppression, killing, torture and fear for centuries hasn't made them go away - it has only made an awful lot of people suffer, made an awful lot of families hate their own brothers. sisters, sons and daughters.

You try to differentiate between Sharia and "our great Judeo-Christian cultural traditions," but the way you sound, I can't see that your proposed treatment of gays is really that much of an improvement. You want to punish people for being different, keep them from upsetting your ideal world order. Happily, you haven't suggested following the Bible's prescribed treatment of gays, but if you gained political power, I wouldn't put it past you.

Nikos said " to have it become an "accepted" social institution has ominous implications for the sanctity and purity of true marriage..."

So, Nick- how will someone else being married affect your marriage?
We'd love to read how YOU will be affected- in your own words- not by cut and pasting Bible verses or blathering about " society" but by writing CONCISELY. What actually will happen under your roof? Do you worry one of you will leave the other? Have an affair? Treat each other unkindly? Start drinking, drugging or slugging?

I believe only 30 years ago many Christians like you said permitting interracial marriage would negatively affect the institution of marriage as well as their own marriages AND they used Bible verse upon Bible verse and " history" to support their positions. Can you list a few ways their marriages might have been- or were negativly affected? Can you please explain how their religious beliefs which prohibited interracial marriage, based upon YOUR holy book, were or were not correct? I assume, since it was the Christian, Bible- based position that your marriage has also been negatively affected by interracial marriage. When the value of your marriage license was diminished because " those" people got married to each other, how did that make YOU feel?

WOW!

Shalom

"All the oppression, killing, torture and fear for centuries hasn't made them go away" Namtac

And of course it won;t "go away;" as murder, child abuse, and racism won't either - because we are living in a sin-filled, sin-full world. This condition will continue until it is ameliorated when the Kingdom comes in its power, and be totally eliminated when Messiah returns in glory at the end of this world order. But that doesn't make any of these things right or societally advantageous. Its amazing to me that humanists and libs will virulently oppose racism or war or child abuse, but cozy up to the gay lobby in seeking ot excuse and promote its perverted, sinful, and detestable acts.

Homosexuality is contrary to the Creator’s design; as are adultery, bestiality, child molestation, and prostitution. Perhaps you approve of all these perversions/sins as well. I doubt it. But the gay movement has been extremely adroit at bending the public mind in their favor, through propaganda, TV sitcoms, movies, and academic approbation. It has become part of the liberal identity to be “OK” with the gay lifestyle – ignoring completely its wretched inner world of disease, wretched practices and psycho-emotional problems.

It is my opinion, Namtac, that it should be legally and socially repressed – as are all other sinful and criminal acts. Sodomy laws should have never been repealed, but rather strengthened. And Alice, interracial marriage is NOT a sin. Equating race issues with sexual perversion is specious and absurd. I am not advocating hatred of anyone – just of practices that are destructive to the perpetrators as well as to society at large, because of the unavoidable detrimental effects of sin. St. Paul put it this way:

“For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.”
Romans 13

Paul is not here saying that everything any government requires is godd or righteous; but that as a principle of human existence one must submit to the just demands of the law of the land. But also to work to see that one’s “rulers” uphold the good, the just and the morally pure. Once a sinful practice is “accepted” and enshrined in law, the lawful authorities are not “God’s minister to you for good,” but are abusing their authority to the detriment of society. We are now poised on the brink of this scenario in our own nation.

It is not being narrow-minded to resist evil and perversion, but it IS being so to not see the larger implications of accepting it.

So, Nikos- have your answers for us yet?
HOW was the value of your marriage dimished by the legalization of interracial marriage?

( It HAD to be. Loving v. VA was only decided in 1967 so the resulting interracial marriages had to affect yours negatively , whether or not you were married or married afterwards. Otherwise, those Christians who fought so hard against it and used Christian beliefs and Bible verses to both make and interpret law were incorrect, bigoted and unchristian- and their Bible must have been wrong. )

How will your marriage be further destroyed by gay couples marrying? My goodness- all this external impact on your marriage must have taken quite a toll!

uhmmm alice - your hate is showing !

you must be aware that some diseases have no outward effects but are ravaging ones insides. acceptance of the glbt lifestyle slowly erodes ones morals to the point (eventually) where seemingly nothing is taboo in our society. where were you when God placed orion in the heavens or how did you help God to commands the oceans to stop at a certain point and who are you (we) to tell God what He has commanded is wrong?
while the perversion of the glbt lifestyle may not have directly impacted what happens in my home (yet) - given time and more aceptance of their lifestyle, society will eventually deteroriate to a point where rampant and accepted sin will affect everyone existence (i.e Gods judgement).
some here strive to receive acceptance by our government of their immoral lifestyle - believing that it is 'game point and match' - but in the end God gets the final say in this game we call life.
btw you never said how you like your coffee - but i suspect you are a straight black coffee drinker, no sugar and no cream !!

It's not hate, dear Buz. It's an honest question how this will impact his marriage. I asked for concrete examples. he's given none.

By the way, Mildred Loving- She who could not live in VA because she, an African American, had married a white man? Her widower could certaibly tell you all about hate. Their marriage, and the resulatant acceptance of their marriage by society, had been deemed to be capable of bringing about the downfall of society by Christians using Biblical arguments to enact and interpret laws. Interracial marriage was deemed to be sinful, " an abomination", " disgusting" etc by those Representatives of Jesus.

So, I guess by your Christian logic and reckining, because of Mildred and her hubby and other married couples like them, we've been relegated to hell long before gay marriage ever hit the news.

Alice I appreciate what is being attempted in asking for exact ways in which others have been affected by what has transpired in our society. As can be seen, nothing is stated. All that is given are broad generalizations. Do not ever expect anything specific.

My stance is share love, openness, and acceptance. If I am wrong then I am the one who will answer to God. If I am correct then God will be pleased. Use Pavlov's theory and see which way would be best!

I would rather err on the side of sharing God's love and be wrong than to err on the side of condemning others and be wrong.

Shalom

Darryl, somehow I can't see you as being one to use his holy book as a weapon to threaten others, persecute others, discriminate against others or to justify hate, abuse or " acting better than."

I just have this image that some who state that same-sex marriages threaten their own fear that either they- or their lawfully-wedded spouse- will be tempted to run off with a member of Promise Keepers ( PK's are all men, BTW.) Kind of like the Rev.Ted Haggard ... who apparently believed that denigrating gays from the pulpit while surreptitiously having big ol' gay sex while cranked up on speed would protect him from people figuring out he was a big ol' meth-tooting FAAAABulous " sodomite."

(

Interracial marriage was deemed to be sinful, " an abomination", " disgusting" etc by those Representatives of Jesus."

For starters, interracial marriage is not a moral, biblical issue, but rather a social one. Those who tried to moral issue were bound to fail. I suspect they were fringe "fundies" who had a personal bias, and not a legitimate biblical case. They may have represented themselves or a particular constituency, but they were NOT “Representatives of Jesus.”

This is NOT the case with homosexuality, which is clearly presented as wrong, sinful, abominable consistently throughout Holy Scripture; in that it contravenes the key element in procreation and in portraying the image of God in the Adam/Eve dynamic (Ephesians 5, I Cor. 10) - not to mention the anatomical disconnect and absurdity involved.

Again, Alice, no one is saying that gay marriage affects MY particular marriage, as Buz also pointed out. But we all have a compelling interest in the direction our society is headed, and the implications thereof – for our children’s and grand children’s sake. The issue is how a policy or practice impacts a culture over time, not its immediate affects.

I oppose Homosexuality simply because it’s such a total contradiction of all God designed and instituted marriage to be. I find it difficult to understand that a sane and intelligent person cannot see this. Sexual union is the union of the male and female total persons (“They shall become one flesh”): all that maleness and femaleness means, emotionally, psychologically, spiritually - as well as physically The marital union, as God designed it, is holistic in nature; and all these constituent elements are NOT POSSIBLE in the same-sex counterfeit. Friendship, intellectual affinity, and general rapport may be exist, but these are possible in all human relationships. To add sexual involvement to it is the problem; because God intended sex to be the exclusive preserve of covenantally united men and women, whose mind, emotions and bodies were SPECIALLY and uniquely created to manifest that reality. Homosexual relations simply cannot accomplish it; and is therefore viewed by God as a corruption of the holy and blessed purposes in marital union.

So, Alice, to honor and promulgate this travesty may not directly affect any individual marriage, per se, but it certainly impacts the morals and direction of society at large, in the long term. No rational person could fail to see that it will change MANY things about how society functions. Just the fact, as Buz noted, that it is accepted and talked about will lower the moral threshold considerably. Once you open the sluice gate of anti-biblical morality it creates a downward spiral into uncharted depths of sexual deviancy. Our society already manifests this tendency to an alarming degree. I saw a bit of the McCain-Ellen Degenerates conversation, in which she mentioned her upcoming “marriage” to her female partner. That young people all over the nation should have to see homosexual “marriage” portrayed as right and acceptable is testimony to my point. IT simply IS not and NEVER can be true marriage.

Well, I know I’ve transgressed grievously by going on so: my apologies. This is just such an appalling development in our country’s history. To attempt to somehow connect it to racial justice is absurd and pointless. I’ll stop, I’ll stop. Sorry

Nikos, give up, honey. The people who legislated against interracial marriage based their arguments on the KJV and they were Christians, plain and simple. It wasn't Rastafarians making those state laws. Face it, you need to read a little US legal history. And do try to keep up. You'd be pretty dismayed to see what your Talibaptists did as Representatives of Jesus. Or maybe not.

Alice thanks for make me laugh loudly this morning!

Shalom

darryl you never disappoint - yet again you fall into bed with atheists.
nikos call himself a brother in Christ - while alice is anything but. if nothing else you are very predictable.

alice without question you heap all Christians into one pile - you cannot see past your own disdain for God and his Messiah. i think it would be nice for atheist to have their own forum where they could share their own brand of love for the hatred of God.

perhaps if you knew more about history you would quickly find out that many who called themselves christians (i.e followers of Christ) - were probably not.

Well, my dear Alice, YOU atheists/humanists/Marxists have nothing to boast about, with your guillotines and gulags. All those humanists were anti-biblical, anti-Christian mass murderers, oppressors and freedom haters. Those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones!

See how it feels to be lumped in with related humanists who do not represent moderate Western liberal socialist atheists. A bit of fair-minded, subtle differentiation sure beats the heavy-handed clubbing approach you seem to embrace.

And some wonder why there is a disdain for things relating/pertaining to Christianity. Reading this one blog alone could turn some away. Then again maybe a way to better understand one another would be to have a sit-down face-to-face type meeting. If any are amicable to that just say so. Maybe Nancy will join in and moderate. What do you say Nancy? Is anyone up for this? Post a response.

Shalom

"And some wonder why there is a disdain for things relating/pertaining to Christianity."

How about: "And some wonder why there is a disdain for things relating/pertaining to atheistic humanism." Alice's disdainful, ad hominem rejoinders are certainly reasons for disdain. My defenses were reasoned and principled, even if some do not agree with me. I think this statement, Darryl, shows the prejudice and animus against Christianity that others in this blog have also shown.

So, any takers on a nice sit-down face-to-face meeting? The potential for a more humane (human) dialog is very great. What better way seeking to relate to what others post than to dialog in person?

I await any responses on this blog.

Shalom