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For what it's worth, Jews have a word for people who believe that Jesus was the messiah: Christians. In other words, Jews don't believe that "Messianic Jews" are Jews. Like "Jews for Jesus," they're Christians. And there's nothing wrong with that. Some of my best friends are Christians! But Jews they ain't.

Definitely part of the controversy.

I think we hear a lot more about splits among Chrisitan sects in the U.S. than we do about splits in the Jewish community. Maybe because our news coverage of religion is so heavily Christian (which sort of makes that "Jews control the media" thing seem either ridiculous or dead on depending upon your perspective) -- or it could be because there are more splits.

When some Baptists say "I think women should be pastors" or "I think homosexuals should be allowed to attend the church, maybe even be married here" other Baptists say: "Well, then you're not a Baptist."

And whether they're right -- whether you have to believe in the whole thing or can believe only certain bits of it are essential -- is something we're not likely to stop arguing over for a long time.

Among Jews the question here seems to be -- does believing that Jesus was divine disqualify you, even if you conduct your religious life as a Jew otherwise?

Joe, that's an excellent question, because it seems reasonable that a person who lives her life as a Jew--with one exception--would be seen by Jews as one of them. But as I understand the rabbinic tradition, the teaching for many centuries has been that this particular exception is a big one, big enough to put the Jesus-believer on the other side of the line. Hence from the Jewish perspective, one who believes in Jesus' divinity is a Christian. And I'll bet that most Christians would agree with that.

Is this consistent with other Jewish teachings? Not entirely, but what religions are entirely consistent? Moreover, this teaching no doubt derives from the particular history of Christians and Jews. If Jews had never had contact with, let alone suffered at the hands of, Christians over the centuries, this teaching might never have emerged.

All this squabbling -
Thank god I'm an atheist.

Give them peanut and jelly sandwiches.

"If Jews had never had contact with, let alone suffered at the hands of, Christians over the centuries, this teaching might never have emerged."

Actually, if Christians,(translation: "Messiah-ans" Greek "xristos" = anointed one) had not suffered at the hands of Jews (early Jewish converts), including their founder, "this teaching might never have emerged." But shall we just leave that whole can of worms aside for now.

IF - Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah and Son of God, (Adam was made in the "image and likeness of God") then Messianic Jews are the only true, or "completed" Jews. Of course, I, as a Messianic (non-ethnic-Jew Christian) believe this to be true. I believe that Jews who trust in Yeshua ha-Messiah (Messianic Jews) as the perfect atonement and Lord of Glory are generally what the Apostles intended followers of Messiah to look like than the Hellenized and Latinized versions that later evolved; although the latter were true and genuine Messianics as long as they held to the essential truths of the Gospel and apostolic teachings - although the cultural trappings than attached themselves to the Church sometimes made them less than apostolic and scriptural – less Messianic.

I do think Joe's point about partial belief and belongingness is a good one in this context. It seems to me that what most Jews place under the umbrella of "a true Jew" covers a rather wide spectrum, and that followers of Yeshua are much more in line with the core Jewishness of the Tenakh than many modern Jewish sects - especially Reform Jews, many of whom have jettisoned orthodox teachings rather extensively, and bear little resemblance to the OT model.

Christians/Messianics (the true variety that is) deeply love the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and seek to follow His Law of in its essential spirit; but believe through regeneration-revelation that Yeshua was the great Paschal Lamb who satisfied ALL requirements of true atonement. IMO, only if Jews see faithfulness to God and His Law/Word as more ethnic than spiritual could they push the idea of non-Jewishness to the point of excluding Messianic Jews. It would seem to me that such faithfulness and love for Adonai could be seen as a variant, among the many others, of true Jewishness; unless prejudice and antipathy clouds the issue. I do realize that there are theological points, Tradition, and ethnic attachments involved in the whole conversation, but certainly the idea of essential scriptural “Jewishness” should play a major role – if we can get past all the error, misunderstanding and historical static that emerged from both Jews and Christians.