News-Record.com

Well, then you will love the latest comment that I left over on Lex's blog.. the one where he takes Bob Cauthorn to task...

Years ago I started listening to Rush Limbaugh. Before I knew it, I found myself reading- at his insistance- the NY Times, the Wash Post, Wash Times, WSJ and various columnists. Yet the mention of his name marks me as a close-minded, brainwashed Republican without an original thought of my own. I mention this here because I think people like Rush and Laura Ingraham understand what your local readers want more than the N-R.

Most Triad residents, a huge majority, are against same sex marraiges. Most want to limit abortions. The list go on and on. Your editorial staff has always been extremely liberal, in stark contrast to your clientele.

You are no longer the only game in town. If you installed an editorial staff more in tune with your readership, your numbers would go up.

Your industry reminds me of the way the book 'Moneyball' describes MLB. Billy Beene, GM of the Oakland A's looked at how the traditional ways of doing business in MLB most often resulted in failure. So he started going against the grain by ignoring the way things had always been done- and basing his decisions on facts. The results: His A's have the winningest record in baseball over the last 6-7 years...with the 2cd lowest salary cap!

There's another result... most all of baseball haates the 'Moneyball' method!

"If you installed an editorial staff more in tune with your readership, your numbers would go up."

Is it the job of a newspaper to echo the opinion (however C.S. found those statistics other than his personal opinion) of a region or is it the job to make sure lots of opinions and voices are heard? Are editors selected because of a region's "red" or "blue" -ness; do they swing undecideds to a red/blue color; do they simply present an array and take a stand every 2 to 4 years during elections?

The Town Square, if it works itself into what I think it's visualized to be, would be the the soapbox, the place everyone can rant or opine and chance being shouted down or agreed with hopefully in a safe and sane environment. The paper would defend your right to say what others disagree with (just say it politely), I suppose, as would most liberals and I hope, as would most conservatives.

It's all about our right to speak (politely), be heard (if not listened to), and feel safe doing so.

Actually Sue I was always under the impression that it was the newpapers job to REPORT the news with no opinion one way or the other. The N & R, along with most other MSM doesn't do that. Hence the reason why most of MSM is suffering from low viewership and readership.

http://lenslinger.blogspot.com/2005/08/and-media-splintered.html

Opinion and editorial flavor the paper based on the news. The fact that the paper feels they must appeal to the minority is, well, fiscally damning.

Look at Air America and virtually every other liberal radio show. They fail, while Limbaugh and Ingraham thrive. (It should be noteworthy that Limbaugh has been around since 1988- he's withstood the test of time. And that's where my Moneyball analogy really works.)

Why is Foxnews steamrolling over older and more experienced brands? Don't look at the facts.

As far as my claims...Gay rights, including Gay marraige has been soundly defeated (by 70-80% landslides)in every election from California to Massachusetts. Even the Canadians dissagreed with their elected officials when they legalized gay marraige.

On the abortion front, simply google "abortion polls" and you'll find I understated the fact that most people want fewer abortions.

I assume christspeak is referring to our editorial positions. I don't know where he/she got the polling data that shows what he/she says about the political beliefs about the Triad's citizenry and our readership, and I'm not sure that it's correct.

That said I appreciate his/her opinion on the matter. While I am not on the editorial board, I doubt it would change its fundamental beliefs based on popularity or selling newspapers. Politicians may do that, but newspapers don't. I doubt whether many readers would want the paper to, either.

Trish, the goal of the news content is to be objective. The goal of the editorial pages, of course, is not. It's the primary reason that the leadership of the two sections are separate and independent of each other.

And Lenslinger's link is well-worth reading because we're talking about the same thing. His perspective is from the local TV news side, which is in the same place newspapers are.

Christspeak and I were writing at the same time, and my reference to his/her comments refer to the first post. I wouldn't change or add anything as a result of the second post.

You can call me Chip. And you prove my point! The facts show readership/viewership/listenership up in mediums where the editorial leanings are conservative. re: The Washington Times. Fox News.

Is Greensboro different?

Chip, I can't speak to the Washington Times or a national broadcast network. I can't cite any hard data about the current beliefs of the local citizenry, although based on our paper's endorsements and who won elections, I can speculate. I was simply questioning your statement about the political opinions of our readership and citizens. (I include readers and citizens in that sentence because you seemed to use them as synonyms, and, unfortunately, they aren't.)

In any case, I don't mean to quibble over what Triad citizens believe. I get your point.

In my experience, journalistically speaking, Greensboro is not very different from Asheboro.

It's all in who you know.

Mr. Robinson,

The goal should be to just report the facts, that is all the people want. We do not want the writer's opinion and/or feelings. Here is the perfect example. Remember the TIMCO bust of illegal immigrants? What did the N & R do with that story? There on the front page above the fold on a Sunday edition no less, you run a sob story about one of the illegal's wife, Gigi I think her name was. Poor Gigi according to her, her husband was a nice man, just looking for work. Now tell me Mr. Robinson why did this story deserve above the fold, Sunday edition front page news? Did you go out and look for workers that were laid off from there and ask their spouses what a hardship it was for them to lose their job to an illegal immigrant? Did you write anything about Gigi and her husband breaking the law, walking over the backs of legal immigrants to take away "jobs Americans don't want"? I don't remember you mentioning any of that. I remember reading a sob story meant to change peoples' opinions on illegal immigrants. When in reality your job is just to report the bust and leave Gigi's story to the editorial pages. No you made it into front page news why? Do you go out and make front page news of every spouse of a criminal? No.

"The goal of the editorial pages, of course, is not. It's the primary reason that the leadership of the two sections are separate and independent of each other."
If only that were so, you might have more paying readership then you do now.

I actually don't believe there was much of the writer's opinions or feelings in that story, Trish. However, if you think our publishing it in a prominent place was an example of bias, I'd hasten to point out that most of our stories about the arrests at TIMCO were published on the front page. And by far most of them focused on the criminal aspects of those involved.

Mr. Robinson,

I will admit up front as to the other articles, I didn't read your paper. The Gigi article I happen to be standing in line at the grocery store picked it up and read it. Put it down and saw that nothing had changed with the News and Record. But once again I ask, why did Gigi deserve to be on the front page? What made her story "news"? First off if I can remember correctly wasn't she also here in this county illegally? But more to the point, what made her story above the fold news and not on the editioral page or even maybe a community page but front page? Also whether or not it had the writers feelings or opinions it did push an agenda which since you published it on the front page I take to mean you approve said agenda. It reminds me of "hollywood" and the tv shows and movies they put out, always pushing an agenda when I just want to be entertained. Same with your paper pushing an agenda when I just want the straight news with no added filler.

Just as a side note, it is not only me that sees your paper as biased. Didn't your community group have complaints as well? When your paper delivery person calls to find out why you dropped the paper and you inform her because of the leftwing bias and she then states that yes she is getting that with every call. When I walk into a Home Depot and the guy selling the subscription says that is the main reason he is given for turning down the paper, you know you have a problem.

Can I believe my eyes?

Sue says she wants a place where EVERYONE can rant and opine.? A place where lots of differing opinions and voices can be heard?

That's kinda hard to do when people block your IP address from making comments.

I believe that you can take any paper in the country, read it only one day, and find some content you don't like. I believe the same is true of any news broadcast. The story you're referring to is on the front page because it was a good story about a family in trouble. I don't believe we made a judgment about whether the trouble was of their own making. We had done plenty of reporting both before and afterward about the criminal charges involved. But the story of the rest of the family was worth telling. It shows another part of the story.

I'm not sure how that can be described as "liberal," particularly as we have been so aggressive in writing about the illegal immigrants in the state and at TIMCO, which some might suggest would make us "conservative."

To me, GiGi's story made the point that the guys that were arrested were not terrorists. They were not Saudi nationals who got a job at Timco because they wanted to sabotage the airplanes they were supposed to fix. These were guys who had one way or another run afoul of and out of luck with our immigration system. They had lost their visas or hadn't been able to renew them. GiGi was just a face behind the news, kinda like the guys in Iraq that were featured in last week's N&R. Also, the unemployment lines aren't crammed with folks who know how to fix airplanes and the argument about taking jobs that americans don't want doesn't fly, Trish. We're talking about airplane mechanics, not hotel maids. Lay the blame on Timco's doorstep. They're responsible for checking the credentials of the people they hire, not hiring illegals, and keeping up with the status of the foreign born folks they do hire. How Timco got away with this in a post-9/11 world is beyond me. And when it comes to the hiring of illegals, the employer has a lot more power and more to gain than the illegal does.

Christspeak makes a good point when he talks about reader opinions and abortion. With the ease one can obtain and use birth control these days, the number of abortions being performed is criminal and we should work to bring that number down significantly. I'd like to see that become a part of a party platform or an editorial policy.

Susie: "To me, GiGi's story made the point that the guys that were arrested were not terrorists."

So to you it doesn't matter that they broke the law? I guess it is ok then to have an "undocumented" withdrawal from the bank (robber) as long as he doesn't shot anyone right?

"They were not Saudi nationals who got a job"
Well according to the New York Daily: "Most of those arrested came from Central and South America. But four came from Sudan and the Philippines - countries on a Department of Homeland Security watch list for potential terror links." So since they were not Saudi nationals, then it is ok that they broke the law.

"These were guys who had one way or another run afoul of and out of luck with our immigration system."
Correct me if I am wrong no matter bad luck or not they BROKE THE LAW correct?

"GiGi was just a face behind the news, kinda like the guys in Iraq that were featured in last week's N&R."
To my knowledge the guys in Iraq haven't BROKEN THE LAW. Now maybe your analogy would work if say the New and Record did a story on Muhammad's, the terrorist, wife.

"the unemployment lines aren't crammed with folks who know how to fix airplanes and the argument about taking jobs that americans don't want doesn't fly, Trish."
Really Susie, have you been done to the umemployment office lately? I have and I also happen to know a guy who was laid off from Timco a year prior and another group of layoff's six months prior. So why don't you go ask them if these were jobs they didn't wish to have because they beg to differ. This is happening to all kinds of industries. Go ask a house painter, construction, manufacturing etc. ask these people Susie is these are jobs they don't want. Better yet, go to Johnson Controls and at shift change ask those workers how they feel about their pay being cut so much that 10 years of working there they are making less then they started. Why? Because they can be replaced with cheap labor. But again I guess you are right, what do legal citizens need these jobs for anyways.

"We're talking about airplane mechanics, not hotel maids"
Really? Then explain this: "All work performed at TIMCO, including work performed by the individuals detained by ICE (U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement) was supervised by properly certificated TIMCO employees," the statement said," and this: "The criminal complaint against Percy Alberto Vega, 53, of 127 Meadowood St., says he lied about his experience and qualifications" and this "The rest worked under the supervision of licensed mechanics on airplane interiors and less critical ares, according to a spokesman for DOT's of inspector general office."
So according to you they were all skilled workers, how come then most worked in less critical areas and all worked under supervision not to mention one guy who lied and qualifications, if he was a mechanic why the need to lie?

"Lay the blame on Timco's doorstep."
I lay it at the companies who hire them, the state of North Carolina who allows them to get driver's license and the politicians who allow them into this country to begin with, along with people like you and the N & R who find nothing wrong with someone BREAKING THE LAW well as long as they aren't Saudi right?

Susie you missed the point of my response. Mr. Robinson said that objective news is for the news section and the other belongs in editorial section. Again where is the news in a person who BROKE THE LAW? The only reason this made front page was because this person was from South America. I highly doubt that if a man robbed a bank that the News and Record would run a front-page article, above the fold no less on a Sunday, doing an interview with the wife of said criminal. Tell me Susie how many of those have you read? Although you did prove my point, this had no news value expect to bring sympathy to a family who BROKE THE LAW.

Mr. Robinson: "The story you're referring to is on the front page because it was a good story about a family in trouble."

Once again can you point me to any other "families in trouble" stories the News and Record has wrote involving a person who has broken the law and got front page, above the fold Sunday edition?

Again this is why the News and Record continues to lose readership (or paying readership), trying to push an agenda that the people do not want. You can continue to believe that this has nothing to do with your bias, however the falling readership proves otherwise.

Have you taken the time to talk with your carriers or the sales people you put in the stores to sell your paper? Have you personally asked them what kind of feedback they are getting? I have. More so, I have seen as the years go by in my neighborhood less and less driveways don't have the paper. At one time, everyone had them, now I have counted a total of 10 out of about 100 houses. That is not saying much.

Trish, there are many, many reasons people don't read newspapers. Perceived bias is one, but it's not the primary one, according to our data. It's not even high on the list. You select one story from weeks ago to make the case that we're biased and disregard many that talk about the very thing -- the crime involved -- you complain about. That seems unfair to me.

Consider this: If you ask people if they want a free gift certificate to McDonalds, you would get those who take it and then you'd get those who say, we don't eat fast food. So when you ask the vendors why people don't accept the gift certificates, he'd say people don't eat fast food. So, you conclude that most people don't eat fast food. In fact, that's only those who have turned down the gift certificates, not the entire pool.

I say that only to suggest that you aren't getting the true picture, not to disregard your personal experience.

Mr. Robinson,

First off I admit I am really bad at writing and I have a tenadence to write novels and at the same time not actually getting my point across. I will try again. I took one example of a story from you paper to show that the News and Record is out of touch with the people they are trying to sell to. You see it as a story worthy of the front page, a " good story about a family in trouble". Ask the majority of citizens if they feel the same as you do. I have a feeling the answer would be no. Most people are fed up with illegal immigrantion, to us (the majority) this story was maybe worthy of a story in the community, life or maybe the second page however no where near the front page above the fold and that is why you are out of touch with your readership.

Also to use your example is McDonalds going to go to a weight-watchers meeting and try to sell a Big Mac? That is what your paper is attempting to do, sell to the minority.

I think it might be a good idea to actually talk to your people who sell the paper and not "data". Try it and see what you come up with. Have them keep a list. I am not sure if you even bother any more, but a while back I could go into Lowe's, Home Depot, Food Lion and Bi Lo and a person trying to sale the News and Record would be there. Everyone said that a major reason why they didn't take it was because of bais. Like you said, yes sure some just didn't want the paper however if a person states that they get a lot of replies to one reason, I would have to look into it. This is what baffles me you say I am not getting the true picture, yet at the same time, I talk with my neighbors who don't get the paper any longer, I talked with my carrier when she asked if it was her the reason I stopped getting it, I have seen my father who at one time could not go without reading the paper with his cup of coffee in the morning, to just taking the paper on the weekends to get the tv guide, till even that was no longer needed and stopped the paper all together. So although you think I don't have a true picture, I also happen to be a consumer. Again just my opinions but if I was you I would really consider talking to the workers on the "front-line" and see what kind of feedback they are getting. What could it hurt, it wouldn't cost you anything to talk with your own employees.

Trish -- That's a sign of the times, I'm afraid. With a war in progress, there are a lot of outside forces battling to control the message, and they're battering the people trying to bring you that message. That brings up a lot of disingenuous arguments (including the mistaken belief that editorial pages influence the newsroom -- fact is, those of us in the newsroom often laugh at the edit pages) from all sides as they try to spin things their way.

Newspapers these days are trying to tread lightly and let everyone have his or her say. In the long term, that may be for the best. In the short term, it means a lot of mud is flying.

A large part of it is the media's own fault, particularly the cable networks. They parade a bunch of extremists across the screen every day and encourage America to take one side or the other. Truth is many of us aren't represented by James Carville OR Robert Novak, by Tucker Carlson OR Paul Begala, by Ann Coulter OR Michael Moore. But the media, which are supposed to reflect society, are missing that part of the reflection.

So we've sold the American public a myth about itself. It's worked in the sense that cable networks have carved out a greater audience (though, it has to be said, still a tiny audience compared to other forms of entertainment -- and make no mistake, it's *entertainment*, not news). People are consuming an awful lot of "news." Newspaper circulation is dropping for a lot of reasons, as John notes, but online readership is way up.

So I think traditional newspapers -- where the reporters and editors focus on informing the public and don't even know each other's politics (see http://poynter.org/forum/view_post.asp?id=10011) -- will survive. I *hope* we'll survive. The alternatives seem a lot worse.

You write perfectly clearly, Trish. I just don't agree with your argument. If people are fed up with illegal immigration, they should be applauding our coverage of it. We have written about how easy it is for illegal immigrants to get licenses in N.C. We've written about raids on employers to arrest illegal immigrants. We have published most of these stories on the front page. You single out one story that attempted to show the human side of someone affected by the arrest and say that it indicates our bias. I can't buy that broad brush.

I know that people think we're biased. Visit any city and a week won't go by in which the newspaper won't publish letters accusing them of bias. Personally, the vast majority of the time I hear someone saying the paper is biased pertains to our editorial pages.

I'm not saying we're perfect, by any means. But publishing a story about someone whose husband had been charged with a crime doesn't indicate bias, particularly when that was one in about 20 stories we've written on the topic.

Interesting discussion on bias - some very good points Trish.

The first thing you have to do as a journalist (if your just a reporter - or a "opinion columnist") is pick up your pen and show up. Case in point, the High Point insert in the Asheboro edition of the N&R. Down here in Randolph county, we're on the other end of the political spectrum . . . drowning in the Courier Tribune's "perceived conservative bias" (translation: business rules no matter what and at all costs - relevant to some of the conversation in this thread). There's not much alternative - and it would be nice to see a balance in the form of some competition. But after a lot of posturing and broken promises to the "red rurals", the N&R pulled out (as I recall, with lots of egg on its face - but that's another story).

There's a reason for the "lack of common knowledge of civic affairs" and it's because, for a long time the state government got a free pass from the big city (mostly "blue") press . . . including the N&R. It's all about power and who's got it and who wants to keep it. Our schools are failing and billions of dollars have just quietly disappeared in healthcare (again, into the coffers of big city hospitals), but Easley & company (currently withholding healthcare benefits for state employees as the General Assembly hobbles through yet another continuing resolution to make ends meet) pretty much can do no wrong . . . even though much of the mess happened on Easley's watch - either as jovernor or attorney general.

Over at Raleigh's N&O, the beat reporters complain that the governor never answers phone calls or questions. I wonder if he would be more receptive and more communicative if more reporters & "opinion" columnists from more newspapers would just show up - with a more critical eye.

Beau, newspapers are treading lightly in large part because "libel" (example: my on-going dispute with Randolph Hospital . . . I'm still waiting for some news coverage that might put Roy Cooper, Garland Yates and a couple of hospital administrators on the hot seat) and "SLAPP" (example: BCBSNC v. ProCare) lawsuits are on the rise. Business leaders don't want anyone saying anything bad about them - even if it's true. So the First Amendment notwithstanding, they sue (to muddy the waters & divert scrutiny) and people cower in fear. In the case of "not-for-profits", the public is actually subsidizing the lawsuits that are designed to keep them in the dark! Moreover advertising (and therefore operating) budgets are controlled by one big pocket or another. Money is power - and make no mistake, it controls what we see and hear in the press.

I can testify from sad experience that everyone is NOT having their say, being heard, or being listened to. If that were so, I've have been back home in Asheboro long ago. I post the occasional comment on blogs because the "traditional" press has ignored the story - a story that is "embarrassing" for someone somewhere who matters more to the paper(s).

Trish, I don't have a personal stake in the issue of Timco and it's illegals. I don't have a family member who works in that industry and may have been displaced by an illegal alien. I do have a family and I can empathize with someone who is just trying to feed his family. He broke the law, but I see mitigating circumstances surrounding the crime. That's my perspective and that's how I read the story. Your perspective is obviously different but equally valid. I get upset about other types of stories that I feel have an impact on me and my family. I didn't think too highly of the story in the Life section yesterday about the sleaze broker who makes a living selling celebrity porn. That's because I have a 12-year-old son who reads that section and I don't think that's suitable reading material for someone his age. A story like that should be in the news columns because if you're adult enough to read about politics or world affairs, you probably can handle a story about a sleazebag like this guy. John Robinson knows that every time I see a story like that, he'll probably hear about it and maybe one day, the N&R will decide stuff like that isn't fit for the front page of the Life section. So tell him what you like and what you'd like to see more of. Maybe the N&R needs to do a story about the people who are displaced by illegal aliens and how it affects their lives. How about it, John?

Mary -- Yes, many state governments are getting a free pass. Project for Excellence in Journalism has documented the decline in state government reporting, and it's a sad thing. In rare cases in which the governor faces serious questions, he often feels he can bully the newspaper (see Gov. Ventura (I-Minn.) or Gov. Ehrlich (R-Md.)).

It's a chicken-or-egg argument -- did readers lose interest first, or did journalists assume readers were losing interest? There are several problems. First, reporters too often frame a story in terms of conflict alone -- the issue doesn't really matter in the story except as a function of whether the Democrats or Republicans benefited or "won." Second, as we all ignore our local papers and tune into national news services, we're all becoming less and less plugged into local issues. That's especially true in areas in which many people live in one town and work in another, spending much of their time in transit and not feeling particularly rooted to one area.

Greensboro has the potential to be different. There's an interest in reviving downtown, though it'll go in fits and starts because there were still a few "white elephant" buildings last I heard. New businesses are coming in, but the area isn't growing so quickly that no one knows where they live. (It may seem otherwise, but trust me -- when you move into an area that's really growing fast, Greensboro's growing pains seem minor!)

That's why I still feel attached to the town even after being away for a few years. Well, that and the fact that you can't get good barbecue up here.