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I think Marcus' observation is overbroad, but it is his own, so I respect it.

I agree with Ed to some degree that jabs now and then shouldn't be taken too seriously.

People blog for different reasons and have different styles. Some like the sport of the back and forth sparring, some only want a library discussion, and some are in the middle.

Rather than reaching a consensus and how it should be done, perhaps we are better off recognizing that blogging has different genres.

Some prefer a Crossfire style, others prefer McNeil/Leher or the Sunday talkies. Neither is more valid than the other- they are just different.

Occasionally, I will write a serious dissertation on a subject, and other times I will throw out some red meat on the same subject. That doesn't mean there is any less truth or validity to the discussion. It's similar to a comedian's observation of affairs (Bill Maher, Jon Stewart) on one hand and an academics observation on the other. They are just different ways of approaching a subject.

I understand what Sam is saying about genres, and I agree with it as far as he's taken it.

If a blog owner (is that the right term?) chooses to allow commenters to use obscenities, call others names or take off on their own pet tangent, that's his or her prerogative. But if they don't want to host that kind of discussion, commenters should respect that, too.

I don't see civility as a transient quality that's in the eye of each beholder; I see it as basic courtesy.

I agree with Liz. Civility is a basic courtesy in human interaction. But you can read condescension and hostility in many of the comments on this site. Try checking out The Chalkboard and Letters to the Editor if you really want to see some nasty stupidity. There are a few respectful commenter, trying to make a point, but there are more people who are there to pat themselves on the back or make themselves feel better by putting someone down.

As Liz note, one problem comes when the Crossfire group decides to mix with the Library group. The fact is, most of the bloggers here are on a short leash when it comes to responding to hostile commenters. So, when a Crossfire commenter comes on, the options for the blog host here aren't many. They certainly can't respond in kind. (Generally, we happen to believe that reasonable people will see the Crossfire commenter as the provocative ass that he is. And I'm using Crossfire loosely here. I think you know what I mean.)

In the end, I submit that the number of bloggers interested in talking about, debating and improving Greensboro and Guilford County has plateaued. And I think a big reason is that the environment is too negative. You have to be pretty thick-skinned to enter in. Some of us are. But if we ever want to invite others in successfully, we need to make it safer.

I think Marcus' observation is overbroad, but it is his own, so I respect it.* Sam

Are you kidding? Blogging is a waste of time for losers with lots of time on their hands. Just look at Marcus when reality stories like below sink in about his politics.

I agree with Ed to some degree that jabs now and then shouldn't be taken too seriously.*Sam

If you agree with Ed, that means he is a god of the political blogging Universe in your life and you should look elsewhere for expert opinion why you are addicted to the internet.

National Young Republican Chairman caught giving a Monia to a sleeping Republican

* Blowing a Republican Karl Rove political career away!

* GOP Gay tricks backfire!

* I thought it was a ecaping Democrat alien lizard and had to be stop your Honor!

And you thought we have had elephant loads of Republican sex scandels in North Carolina.

You just can't make this stuff up? What's next? Cheney having sex with dead people!

Glenn Murphy Jr. born 1974 is an American Republican political activist. For a time he was thought to be a rising star in the Indiana and national Republican Party. He was the president of the Young Republicans (since July 2007) and the chairman of the Clark County, Indiana Republican Party (since 2000) until August 2007, when he resigned both positions during a criminal investigation for sexually assaulting a sleeping 22-year-old man after a Young Republicans party on 29 July 2007

Murphy runs a consulting firm, December Media, that advises congressional candidates, including former U.S. representative Mike Sodrel. Murphy lives in Utica, Indiana and is reported on the lamb to Thailand. The sleeping male republican victim claims he was not aware of the assault until he woke up to find a note that said.." Vote for me as your next Chairman, and you will be bless" * Glenn

A lawyer for Mr Murphy said this was all blown out of context and his client was simply drunk and thought he was being attack by snake.

Back in the early days I used to analogize blogs to yellow pads: you can use them to write shopping lists, or sonnets, or novels, or political commentary, etc. That's what makes generalizing about them pretty pointless.

To say blogs have "little or no impact on issues or social redeeming value" is demonstrably false.

Locally, you could look at the publication of the RMA report at Greensboro 101, or the long posts and series of comments at my blog after the N&R layoffs this summer, and see real impact and value.

On a state level, blogging (or bloglike sites) helped lay low Jim Black, helped boost Larry Kissell, and (arguably, at least) help seal Kindley's own fate as he ran for GOP chair. Etc etc at a national level...and that's just political/media stuff, there are also tons of creative sites out there.

That doesn't mean the signal to noise ratio is high, or high enough.

Another thing to remember: it's early days. We've just started this stuff. And as the post JR linked mentions, new techs keep arriving that make limiting the conversation to blogs seem a bit dated. Not everyone's a writer -- other tools may suit some people better than blogs.

I've seen interest and usage of local blogs plateau before. The economics remain uncertain. The social atmosphere, as discussed ad infinitum, is raucous. And a lot of the movers and shakers haven't caught up to the front of the curve on this stuff yet. The use of the web in local campaigns to date has been pretty weak; that might not change on a wide scale until someone wins an election by doing it right.

One good way to promote blogging (and online communication in general) is to keep plugging away with good content and perhaps safer environments for discussion.

I have expressed the opinion before-- and I still hold it-- that it is better for bloggers and commenters to discuss the issue at hand instead of discussing each other. The temptation is often great to do otherwise, but in the long run, it is destructive.

I agree with you in principle Joe, but I have also learned that patterns emerge when the interlocutors become accustomed to one another.

Too often while discussing topic B with a person, you recall the same person had a completely different and contradictory position while discussing topic A. That leads to a lot of conflict. I don't think you can have an honest debate with dishonest people. So again, personalities are impossible to separate from issues many times- but not all the time.

Your option is to realize what is going on and choose to avoid that forum, or fight it out. Sometimes I elect the former, sometimes the latter.

Like I said about genres before, there are plenty of places to go depending on what suits you. If you are going to run a library blog, you have to run it like a library for everyone, not just people who agree with you. Ditto for a Crossfire forum. If civility is the goal, then it must demanded from everyone.

I also think Crossfire type forums can be civil as well, but just in a different manner. People fight, it gets heated, but nobody leaves feeling like they have made or become an enemy. That's how I see it 90 percent of the time anyway.

The people who really are trolls who do it just to pick a fight are another story, but I don't equate getting on someone's case over an opinion of theirs where there is an honestly held disagreement with trolling.

I think greendog who frequented Ed's blog for a long time was completely a troll. He would drop in just to call names and never offer any substantive points on anything. Bubba and I have sparred with Ed for a long time, but I don't doubt that Bubba is trying to present a sound argument. He usually has facts to support his claims, and the fireworks between he and Ed are a mutual engagement as are the bouts I've had with Ed. But I don't take it personally.

I've had bouts with Lex which started off civil, but degenerated when the sarcasm (started by Lex by the way) intruded. But even in the midst of the back and forth bickering and sharp exchanges, there was a substantive analysis of issues being discussed. I feel the same way about most of my discussions at Ed's. Of course I was banned by Lex because I used the word a.. on his blog. At least that is the reason given, although I doubt it is the real reason, but I digress..

There is a lot of rocks in glass houses out there that needs to be recognized and is another reason why the quest for "civility" can be elusive. Many people think that when dealing with people other than the greendogs of the world, civility depends on whose ox is being gored. A person could run such a blog, but they should make that known from the get go, or else not complain about it later.

Maybe we are simply arguing over semantics, because what we mean by civility as it applies to blogs has yet to be clearly defined. Clearly, nobody supports comments that offer no substance at all and are just an excuse to call names. But I submit that is quite different from what usually transpires and may be considered incivility by some but not others. JR's experience may be different.

On a state level, blogging (or bloglike sites) helped lay low Jim Black,*Ed

Not really! It was decided by the Democrat establishment that the Feds had the goods on Black long before one individual took a shot at it. He would still be blogging with himself today, if not for the Feds dropping the leaks to the mainstream state media.

and helped boost Larry Kissell,*Ed

Larry campaign was jump started by Blue NC and the massive political turning tide against the Republican Congress in 06. Blue NC is not a blogging site, but a info site that performs well for progressive democrats about Republican screw ups in this state, which is easy or like shooting fish in a barrel.

and (arguably, at least) help seal Kindley's own fate as he ran for GOP chair. *Ed

Poor Marcus was done in long before he even consider running for the chair like many others, who did not have the approval of Art Pope and his neo-con republican machine politics. Hell, Marcus didn't even know what a blog was until a year and half ago, since he thought it was a spelling and grammar contest with others of like persona mind.

One good way to promote blogging (and online communication in general) is to keep plugging away with good content and perhaps safer environments for discussion.*Ed Cone

Blogging is nothing but the party telephone gossip line of the past, except it has no roots in the political community, nor will it ever have that connection in the 21 st century of politics.

One of these days I'll write a post on how Kissell came to prominence over Tim Dunn, who was the superior choice. I haven't talked to Tim in awhile, but I have talked to some of my Democrat friends who were involved in that campaign, and what I have heard is interesting.

I'm waiting to get Tim's side of the story the next time I see him.

"Blogging...has no roots in the political community, nor will it ever have that connection in the 21 st century of politics."

Uh oh! Better tell the campaigns.

Too late!

"Blue NC is not a blogging site."

Sure it is.

Blogging...has no roots in the political community, nor will it ever have that connection in the 21 st century of politics."

Uh oh! Better tell the campaigns.*Ed Cone

Right! Have you look at the poll numbers of those Democrat candiates recently. You could blog for a 100 years in row in South Carolina and it would never move the state racist republican good old boy party from power. They own South Carolina lock stock and barrel in politics. The mind set of the South Carolina white male, retired military, religious base voters is still in the 19 th century of politics and will continue that way for a long time. Us former boys and sons know that...wink..wink

---------------------------------------------------

Too late!* Ed Cone
"Yearly Kos Convention Draws Presidential Contenders"

So! If that is true, than Howard Dean would be president and Senator Joe Leiberman would be a limo driver from the Baghdad International Airport to the Green Zone.
---------------------------------------------------

"Blue NC is not a blogging site."

Sure it is.* Ed Cone

Right! So how many times have you blog your information opinions at their site on how they are doing it all wrong according to your blogging standards of being fair and balance. Hell Ed! You didn't even know the Kissel campaign existed for 6 months after they won the primary like the Republicans.

Ed, I am sorry. When it comes to the ins and outs of North Carolina politics, Connie hits more than he misses (the "fish in a barrel" crack made me laugh out loud). He's right about Blue NC. It's a lefty/liberal propaganda machine . . . little better than John Edward's campaign blogs. Try posting anything that does not agree with Angelico.

Three trys. I was out.

Meanwhile, you protest too much (three times in row . . . OBTW citing your own article is always nice touch).

Changing the world starts from the bottom up, not the top down (which is the way you've been trying to do it). If you and JR and the rest want to convince the rest of us that blogging (and "citizen journalism") is relevant and worthy of our time and attention, then you and JR and the rest are going to have to DO SOMETHING relevant.

You put up a post a few days ago wondering aloud how Joe Sinsheimer became the influential man he is. And I told you. It's simple. He saw something bad and instead of sitting on a fence, he faced his own party down, spoke truth to power, and took on the most powerful man in the state. He did not mince words. He did not take prisoners.

Meanwhile our prominent bloggers (not to mention most of the North Carolina newspapers that have treated the politicos in Raleigh with kid gloves - because Democrats can do no wrong) have waited to be spoon-fed the latest scandal (scandals which exist, in large part, because investigative journalism in this state is dead-as-a-doornail), and only offer mealy-mouthed opinion afterwards.

I'm here for the same reasons Joe was here. I was there when Joe got started. He's been nothing but encouraging to me as I literally fought the things that my own city hall would cover up (to serve our local hospital's best bottom line). What were you (in your "living room")? In two and one-half years, JR can't spare a reporter for thirty minutes to talk to me? Please. And (for Hoggard's benefit) I was hammering away at Blue Cross's nasty business tactics on the ProCare blog (because I was HURT by those tactics) . . . and stayed there until ProCare was sued out of existence. Where were the rest of you?

When you guys manage to do something . . . ANYTHING . . . that takes on the local and state issues that hit the rest of us where we live . . . something to bring bad guys over-and-under your noses down and/or put them in jail for abusing the public's trust (no matter who they are or what party they belong to) . . . I'll cede a card in the relevancy game to you.

Right now, you're just trying to hang on to the status quo, and to get your guys elected nationally. But I've seen what the Dems have done since the big wins in the last election cycle (and with the exception of one freshman Senator who was not in office at the time, they ALL voted to support Bush's decision to go to war). Nothing changes. Everybody's got two faces. It's all about power.

I daresay you gave up your shot at a stay in the Lincoln bedroom when buttered-up Elizabeth Edwards for the sucker-punch and got your CNN link.

I'm tired of the hype and I'm tired of the sorry excuses.

And JR, I honestly think you got into this blogging business expecting all "the voices" to merrily skip behind you. Have you considered that they don't chime in (and worse, don't buy your newspaper) because they don't skip to your tune?

I think I speak for a lot of people: Put up or shut up.

One of these days I'll write a post on how Kissell came to prominence over Tim Dunn, who was the superior choice. I haven't talked to Tim in awhile, but I have talked to some of my Democrat friends who were involved in that campaign, and what I have heard is interesting.

I'm waiting to get Tim's side of the story the next time I see him.*Samuel Spagnola

Sam! You have no F#### idea what went on in the Kissel campaign and Tim Dunn at the start. I was there you figging conservative Bush suck up republican idiot when Tim disappear into the afternoon sun that day. Where in the hell do you get the idea about taking another Art Pope John Locke cheap shot about Tim being the superior candiate after the Kissell amost sent your republican candiate flipper rich white boy packing. Hell son, you were shocked when you found out that Good old [Hayes buddy]boy Coy was holding up with a transgender HO. So how informed are you about political races and candiates with your limited republican knowledge about anything in your addicted blogging life.

I didn't wonder how Sinsheimer succeeded -- that was pretty clear by the time I first linked to him in early 2006 -- I merely noted that he's being recognized for doing so; it seems worth mentioning here when the impact of blogs is not just questioned but denied.

As for Blue NC (from the "about" page: "Anyone is welcome to create his or her own blog entries"), if the question has shifted from whether it's a blog to what kind of blog it is, then I'm satisfied that we've established that it's a blog.

All of this stuff is relevant to the question of how to encourage broader participation on the web: one, identify useful content amidst the noise; two, educate people on the different types of content and media; and three, acculturate people to find value in discursive and sometimes hectic conversations.

Remarkable. A blogger asks for comments on raising the civility bar and we end up with... off-topic rants, name-calling, insults.

This is THE reason that a lot of us refuse to engage in these discussions on a regular basis and a lot more refuse to participate at all.

Let's try again. All you commenters who feel you absolutely have to say something, try resonding to the topic at hand. But this time don't talk about what other people should do; talk about what changes you are willing to make that will serve to invite more people in to blog conversations.

Remarkable. A blogger asks for comments on raising the civility bar and we end up with... off-topic rants, name-calling, insults.* Elizbeth

I agree! How in the heck did Ed and Sam get themself into this mess is beyond me? You got Ed off Elizbeth Edwards speed dial cell phone for future comments from her and Sam being a republican psyc-ops disinformation fool for the military-industrial complex in 8 th district Congressional politics.

No wonder our country and state is going to hell with their political blogging leadership expert abilties.

Thank God! They are nothing but blogging waterboys for the establishment in this state and have no political affect on our future.

As discussed in the related thread, I've come to believe (after many years of trying to avoid it) that promoting online participation and conversation may have to involve active management of comment threads by the blog owner.

I think this thread bears out that theory.

Incidentally, Connie is the only commenter I've banned permanently for online behavior, of which this thread is not atypical.

You actually give Kindley's comments credence? I thought you'd be too sharp for that, JR. Kindley's "observations" are a red herring to keep us from remembering why he really exited the blogging scene.

Connie's remarks are exactly the kind of firebombing with no substance that most people ignore.

FYI, Connie, I know Tim. I know the people who were in his campaign. I know Robin and the people in his campaign. You have no idea what you are talking about when you attack me.

Perhaps you were just trying to give us an example of what real trolling is for the sake of this discussion on civility.

The rest of us seem to be having a good discussion despite our many disagreements.

Roch, I mentioned Marcus's comments because they accurately describe a pretty widespread opinion about blogging. I tried NOT to make it personal, but dealt with his opinion.

Incidentally, Connie is the only commenter I've banned permanently for online behavior, of which this thread is not atypical.* Ed Cone

Right Ed! So how does it feel to be the biggest establishment liberal hypocrite in your unreality blogging world. We certainly know of your online political behavior too from your past looney " Batshit" comments. Banning is simply another tool of a coward or a rat when corner about real facts.

So Ed! What is your next step to bannish me in your political blogging world. Line me up against a wall of silent persona's and shoot me with your "Batshit" award winning journalist words?

Isn't it interesting how I got your attention once more. You are such a sucker and a wimp when it comes to kick blogging.

Connie's remarks are exactly the kind of firebombing with no substance that most people ignore.* Sam

Keep thinking that way Sam! It appears that you have not taken a poll why the American people are ignoring your political party and it's past agenda to destroy America. So how does it feel to be like Custer with your 28% republican Bush-Cheney Storm troopers?

FYI, Connie, I know Tim. I know the people who were in his campaign. I know Robin and the people in his campaign. You have no idea what you are talking about when you attack me.* Sam

His campaign lasted 2 weeks and had less than 2 people in it. I am not attacking you, you are simply a victim of your own conservative republican Orwellian Batshit like Ed. Are you a fearless leader or a major power player in the world of politics or simply another idea of a small time want to be in Greensboro republican politics?

Perhaps you were just trying to give us an example of what real trolling is for the sake of this discussion on civility.* Sam

Define Trolling Sam! Is there a special club or some secret ring knocker religious rites that one has to go though to join your special blogging world.

Sam! have you consider riding republican goats to prove how loyal you are to your elite little Bush blogging world.

The rest of us seem to be having a good discussion despite our many disagreements.*Samuel Spagnola

Right Sam! It proves once again that you have too much time on your lazy legal hands and have a serious addiction issue with the internet for getting in the last political blogging word like Ed. When are you going to get some therapy for this enabling blogging republican disease you have?

Do use a favor! Go to Iraq and prove what a blooging chickhawk republican man you are!

Res ipsa loquitur.

JR, I don't think it's personal to point out that Kindley's condemnations of blogs is a red herring offered as a diversionary excuse for the real reason he quit blogging--that he wanted to run for state Republican party chair and his words, on record at his blog, were an obstacle to his self interest.

Res ipsa loquitur.* Samuel

legal latin phrases are not a substitute for actual legal reasoning* Cicero

It appears that your night law school training miss the most important thing by not proving your theory of political negligence with your legal career at this point in your young life.

Are you aware that you use western latin instead of the original Roman latin by Cicero? You do understand that Cicero was a lawyer first and a Senator second when dealing with the issues of State.

I don't comment much here anymore because it is a tremendous waste of time.

People (N&R folks, but especially Lex) only want to essentially hear validation of their ideas OR very quite extremely passive questioning (not even disagreement. Sort of the way very "smart" people disagree -- with never actually saying they are.)

Others only seem to hunt down and make posts that support one way of thinking -- read Liberal. For example: I remember Lex saying he would be just as hard on the Democrat majority in Congress after they were elected and I think he's made only 4 posts on them (over several, several months) as opposed to one a day for a while about Republicans for a LONG time...

So, what is the point?

I can argue with a Stop sign all day and not even have to bother to start up my computer -- it's the same difference and the exact same outcome.