This is in response to the editors note - the Surgeon General's report is far more interesting than the News and Record. You really should try reading more than the first line of the paragraph to which you refer and remember not all printed information is boring, mundane garbage. However, it does beg the qusetion - Why would gay kids really want to kill themselves when they have people like Aaron McKinney, John Lotter, Tom Nissen, Jason Cazares, Jose Merel and Michael Madigson to do it for them. Not to mention the safe, secure environments they find themselves in everyday, understanding peers and parents and the love of differences that is so apparent in American society today. Gay kids killing themselves in greater numbers - no way - they have far too much to live for.

I find any posthumous study of gayness suspect. Kids are so mercurial, only half formed, not sure who they are yet. Not to be harsh, but if you have a teenage suicide and you ask around, you're going to find someone who says he was gay. You can't interview the teenager, obviously. You might find circumstantial evidence--a note, a diary, or whatever. Or he might have come out to his family and friends. But here you have a teenage suicide without a note, without a diary, who hasn't come out, but some of his friends say he was gay or may have been. How do you count that suicide statistically? Even if you could determine a person's sexual orientation at autopsy, and you have absolute proof that this person was gay, I suspect that in many, many instances, you would now know this was the motivation for the suicide. So I'm skeptical of this kind of statistic.

That said, there is no excuse for anyone to mistreat or ostracize a gay person--and especially a gay kid. Life is tough enough. Everyone deserves to be supported and no one deserves to be discriminated against.

Many people take homophobia as an article of Christian faith (the Pope, no less, for one). I have always challenged people to identify the statement made by Christ or by God which indemnifies either homosexuals or women who have abortion. I'm still waiting for an answer.

Christians follow in the footsteps of Christ. We take our faith from him and live by virtue of his grace. We strive to emulate him in our lives. If Jesus wasn't upset about gay people or abortions, it is obviously unChristian to focus on these things. While there are children who are hungry or living in the streets, we have no business even enquiring about someone's sex life or orientation. There is plenty else to do.

"instances, you would now know this was the "

should be

"instances, you would not know this was the "

and of course, I was thinking "condemns" when I typed "indemnifies."

I believe that the N & R should do a little more research. While some try to mistify the possiblity of teen completed suicide because there are not "definites" as to whether the young person was or was not GLBT, the numbers are there! Teen suicide completions are at a very high rate. Sadly, trying to completely survey as to whether or not one of these is GLBT is difficult at best and nearly impossible at worst.

The current administration is like its last two republican predecessors; Reagan and Bush (Sr.). There was a comprehensive study completed with fairly factual numbers pertaining to GLBT youth competed suicides. However, this was during a very rigorous religious right-wing frenzy. So, there were only a limited number of this report published and those have mysteriously vanished!

The sad part is that with the evidence/information gathered, the people still refuse to listen! There is a problem. GLBT young people are completing suicide at a higher rate than there heterosexual peers! And from my on perspective, there is substantially much more reason for this to happen. As a troubled and struggling gay young person, I look back and can only wonder at how I survived. I attempted suicide on at least three occasions before I turned twenty-years old! From my own experience I know that there is something that needs to be addressed that fails to even be mentioned!

Again, the current administration is not concerned with the "little people," the rich are all that matter!

Perhaps the reason more gay young people are killing themselves is because they are depressed and unhappy. As much as some people would like to blame this on other people's homophobia, the reasons for their depression and unhappiness may stem from something else. When your entire lifestyle is outside of the will of God, you are going to be unhappy. While none of us is promised a rose garden here on earth, when we live our lives in a way that is an 'abomination' to God, we can't expect to be happy. And the word abomination is not something I chose to make up. These are not my views. I have many gay friends and coworkers who I love very much. But 'abomination' is what God refers to homosexuality in his book, the Bible. If you disagree with this viewpoint, then you disagree with God. Jesus did not address every single sin when he was here on earth because many sins had already been adressed in scripture. He said "I did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it" While I don't believe in people 'using' the Bible to point fingers at others, it is impossible for anyone to use the Bible to support homosexuality.

I had to add to my post because I want to be clear that I'm not picking on Gay people. The Bible says that EVERYONE has sinned. "Surely there is not a good person on earth who always does good and never sins" Ecclesiastes 7:20. We are all guilty of something. Jesus said "I also don't judge you guilty. You may go now, but don't sin anymore". If I put that in my words, it is "I know you aren't perfect and I forgive you for your past, but in order to please God you must change and live as He teaches."

once again, I challenge anyone to uncover a shred of evidence that God disapproves of the "gay lifestyle." Or Jesus. Just saying so doesn't make it so. Using the name of God to support your own bigoted agenda is the very definition of "using God's name in vain." That sin made the top ten. Forget about the gay kids, forget about gay people in general. Your soul is in jeopardy. Look to your own life. When you are without sin, we'll let you have a stone to throw.

I'll take Gabby's point one step further. I challenge anyone to uncover a shred of evidence that any "god" even exists. Moreover, I'm really more interested if anyone can describe a god that is metaphysically and logically possible.

So it is a sin to call homosexuality a sin. Is that what you are really saying? If you haven't seen biblical scripture that refers to homosexuality as an 'abomination' then you haven't looked very hard. But what difference would it make to you? You don't put any faith in the Bible anyway, do you? You can't really because it is obvious you haven't read it. You're asking a human for proof in God? What kind of proof do you seek? You breathe air in day after day. You think that just happened by accident? I don't mean to be patronizing but when someone acts like every Christian that speaks Biblical truth is a moron, then it gets kind of old. I think Mr. T was pretty clear that he wasn't throwing stones at anybody. Did you see where he said he 'loves' his gay friends? Do you think he would have gay friends if he was a homophobe? Can we leave it at having serious differences in opinion without attacking viewpoints? Can you prove that homosexuality isn't a choice? Can you prove that there isn't a God? I didn't think so. It is downright sad and pitiful when anybody takes their life. And people arguing about that isn't going to make it any better. But when someone comes out and tries to point a finger and blame for someone else killing themselves, that is wrong. The person who committed suicide did so of their own free will. And each individual had individual reasons for doing that. Gay and lesbian suicide rates may be higher but let's stop trying to blame people and try to find a way to help them. I actually had a gay friend who killed himself. He suffered from severe depression. And believe it or not, his depression did not come from his being gay.

A question that I suspect probably won't get any answers, but here goes. How many of you who point to Leviticus (the only place in the Bible where homosexuality -- and only among men -- is admonished) abide by the other instructions in that book?

I ask, because as any good Christian knows, Leviticus would also have us:

- Not eat shellfish
- Not eat pork
- Not wear clothes of mixed fabrics
- Not eat cheeseburgers
- Not shave our sideburns
- Not get re-married after a divorce.

So, I'm just wondering, among those who use Leviticus to condemn others, are you living by its tenants, or are you being selective in choosing what parts of the Bible should apply so that you can point at the speck in others' eyes?

And if you are eating BigMacs, shaving your sideburns and wearing polly-cotton blends, while shouting "abomination" at homosexuals aren't you a, oh, what's the word... hypocrite?

It's hypocrisy to condemn another. The rules in the bible were written for each of us as individuals, not an excuse to condemn each other. Using the name of God to condemn a person as if you sat in judgment is simply blasphemy. But, as I say, I try to avoid blasphemy in my own life. You do what you want. Bear in mind that your instincts, your belief that you have a direct line to the judgment of God, were responsible for nailing Christ to the cross.

As Stephen Hawking has said, "there may be a God, but there isn't much for God to do." Everything seems to follow natural laws, clear back to the big bang, and extending forward to the death of the universe either through implosion or entropy. I am loath to interfere with anyone else's faith, but I've had extensive experience with prayer of all types and I have never seen one answered except, "thy will be done." If God is aware of what is going on, my prayer seems pretty futile. In fact, it even seems a little insulting--God would know what is best much better than I. What value does my opinion have with the Creator of the Universe? None that I can see. The Lord's Prayer is a pretty humbling thing--feed us, forgive us (but only if we forgive others), don't tempt us, prevent us from doing evil, you're swell, amen. Nothing about making time run backwards, showering us with wealth or good health, giving us an edge in the lotto. Hardly a conversation, much less a petition. As one theologian said, "the central message of the Bible and all religions on earth is this--do unto others as you would have them do unto you. All else is commentary." OK, I get it. I'm ready for the rapture.

Can someone please point out to me where anyone condemned anyone else on this page? Can someone point out to me where anyone 'shouted' abomination at homosexuals. And as far as pointing out specks in other's eyes, I personally made sure that I included scripture that stated that ALL people are guilty of something. That doesn't sound like someone who is sitting in judgement of a particular group, does it? That doesn't sound like a pious person who thinks they are perfect does it?

As far as the other items in Leviticus (pork, fabric, shellfish, etc), I couldn't tell you. I've heard all kinds of explanations about these things myself. Just because a lot of Christians eat pork, does that mean God approves?

One thing that people are correct about is this: instead of trying to justify what you are doing by pointing out faults in others, you better make sure you are right yourself.

I have. I have aked for God's forgiveness, I asked Jesus to change me so that I might be more like the example he set for me, and I try daily to serve God in the way he set out for me in his Bible. Do I fail? Yes. But I don't live in denial. I know my faults. I admit them. I don't say that because Joe is a homosexual, then that excuses every thing that I do that is wrong.

People can pick the Bible apart. They can point at pork, shellfish, whatever. That doesn't make participating in homosexual acts any less of a sin. The same with adultery, taking God's name in vain, and anything else that God made it a point to warn us against.

God destroyed Sodom and Gamorrah (probably spelling that wrong because I don't have an old testament on hand) for a reason. It wasn't because they ate shellfish, but it was because they were disobedient to him and lived in complete wickedness. They even tried to rape the Angels that God sent to warn them.

God loves you regardless of who or what you are or what you have done. But God hates sin and he has demonstrated that time and time again. And if you do not renounce sin and follow him, you will not be a part of his kingdom. That goes for ALL of us.

And yes, there are many Christians that are hypocrites. Hypocrites exist in all circles. That's because we are human and flawed. But there are Christians who have a real relationship with God that will still tell you that homosexuality is a sin. If they didn't love you and care about you as a human being, they wouldn't say anything to you. But as Christians, we ARE responsible for our brothers and sisters on earth. In order to 'do unto others' we are REQUIRED to let you know that a life of sin without salvation will lead to an eternity in a place of pain and torture. We are required to tell you about the gift that God offers to everyone. Whether or not you accept that gift is up to you. But if we didn't tell you about it and warn you, then we would not be doing our duty to God or to our fellow human beings. You may not see it, but there is a lot of love out there. It isn't easy being a Christian. It isn't easy telling people things they don't want to hear. It isn't easy getting your head bit off and feeling the hatred and bitterness that people have for Christians. But we go forward because we have to.

Mr t, what's it going to be? Are you going to abide by Leviticus and quit eating shelfish, shaving your side burns, wearing poly cotton blends and eating cheeseburgers or are you going to continue to use Leviticus to denounce homosexuality as an abomination with while violating its other tenets?

You see, it's not Christians that irritate people, it's hypocricy.

There are three choices, either live by Leviticus if you want to use to justify your opinion of homoesexuality as an abomination; don't follow the instructions of Leviticus and quit claiming that homosexuality is an abomination; or disregard Leviticus for your life while insisting that others abide by a single verse in it and be a hypocrtic.

"I do not sit with deceitful men, nor do I consort with hypocrites;"
Psalm 26:3-5

Roch, your argument is a two-edged sword. For example: The Bible condemns murder. Do you dismiss that as invalid because the Bible also prohibits eating shellfish?

Doug,
Nice try but the logic doesn't work backwards like that...
Roch could dismiss the Bible's condemnation of murder but still find murder to be wrong for a variety of other reasons.
In my opinion, there is no content in the bible that is valuable to me simply because it is in the bible. The bible, in my opinion, is merely a collection of stories written a long time ago. I may hold some of the values that are espoused in the bible but not because they are in the bible.

Doug, You'll notice that my discussion was specifically regarding the book of Leviticus. (Not the Ten Commandments.) There is only a double edge sword if you misrepresent what I've been discussing.

But, if you wish to extend the conversation to the entire Bible, I would be curious to know how one is to choose which tenets of the Bible to abide by, since obviously some are considered unquestionable while others are ignored. Could it be, as Bob suggests, that our morality is shaped by more than the words in the Bible?