I have the "right" to expect my government to protect me in the best way they know how.
What would you suggest...we abandon the government and fight our enemies in the street?

"Why does the federal government want colleges and universities to submit the names, addresses and Social Security numbers of all students to the government?"

Newsflash, if you are an American citizen, the Federal govt. already knows your SS#. Who the hell do you think gave it to you in the first place??? If you pay taxes or receive benefits, they also know your address, ditto for the state govt if you have a drivers license.

If you are a university student and not an American citizen, our government has the right to know who you are and where you live.

This Patriot Act is so overblown. Moral of story, don't hang out with terrorists and the Patriot Act won't affect you.

The government has the obligation and the right to protect us at all cost possible but without destroying our rights under the constitution. Bush declared that following 911 that bin laden should not change the nature of our country. Through the Patriot Act we now have people including some americans who are being held, not charged with a crime, cannot see their families or a lawyer. This example alone means bin laden has won. If the US government has a case against the people bring on the charges, convict them and then give them the sentence fitting their crime. Which means for me the death penalty if they were involved in an act that brings the lost of life. Our justice system may need some work but we should be able to handle this in our system without forfeiting our rights.

Sorry Dan about your last comment. On the AFN,american military station which you may know from france, radio show one morning aired an exchange between a military lawyer and a federal judge about arresting people under the patriot act. He was asked if an old lady sent money to an organization that unbeknownst to her gave money to a terrorist organization would you seek to arrest her "For aiding terrorists". The lawyers answer simply yes we would. Then how long would you hold her. Answer Until we felt she was no longer a threat. Point being here you can unkowingly support a terrorists but then be held indefinetly. This should make you wonder a little about the Patriot Act.

Lynn, Please list here all the items in the Patriot Act that have been used against you to deprive you of "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness".

Hayes, in your fictional description of a situation, what's the problem? Someone is funding terrorists and you would prefer that they be allowed to continue to do it? Now that makes sense.

It does seem like the many are having to suffer for the fanaticism of a few. The immediate deportation of all Islamics would remedy that.

"Fictional" based on what are you making this accusation. Second if it makes you feel better I can try to contact AFN and get the information. I dont know how easy that would be, that is to get them to give me the info here.

I am not saying and have never said that an organization or a person which or who funds an terrorist group should not taken down. They should be.

My point here Mac is that someone like you can donate money to a group thinking you are helping someone and this organization turns around and gives this money to a terrorists group. And based on this exchange between the lawyer and judge you Mac will fall under suspicion could and probably would be arrested and held until the military saw fit. If you can live with that then good. What happened to innocent until proven guilty.

And personally there are many factual reasons to question the patriot act and quite frankly if the only thing I can use in an arguement is "fictional" then I know when to shut up.

After reading this letter, I can't believe that it didn't end with 'Over my dead body!"

Hayes, You seemed to have overlooked your own words. "Answer Until we felt she was no longer a threat". Sounds to me like if it was determined that there was no threat then the little old lady would be in the clear.

You need to consider that there is a group of people in the world that, A. Want you to join them. B. Will kill you if you don't. C. Will kill any American, any time, any where, just because. D. That are being funded by the very people that they would kill without even looking back.

It is going to take extraordinary measures to slow them down. They will never be stopped.

First I dont see why, Mr t, you feel I would even in my comments with over my dead body. I do try to keep things in perspective and for anyone who uses this comment, ove my dead body, is a little over the edge. Just me.

I did not overlook my words. Actually it was the sentence that threw me the most. I agree with your logic but this is the answer he not me gave.I expected a more common sense answer in that yes not only would we release her but would not even arrest her. It has just stayed with me.

I do consider your points and agree with your arguement for the need of extraordinary measures. My point and strong belief is that we could and still can deal with this problem under our previous legal system, ie pre-patriot act. That some imbalances could have been corrected or changes could have been made to help against this war without intruding on our rights as a citizen. I am sorry but the fact that any person especially an american is being held without being charged with a crime, no rights to a lawyer, and family goes against everything I believe this country to be. Again charge him, put him on trial, convict him if the evidence is there and if his act involved the lost of an american life then hang him.

"It does seem like the many are having to suffer for the fanaticism of a few. The immediate deportation of all Islamics would remedy that."-- Steve
I say let's deport the Christians as well. They too are always spreading hate.

If we deported all the Christians, all that would be left would be you secular humanist types. Hillary and alot of Democrats would be considered too conservative so they would be gone too. So you would elect George Soros as prez. and Moveon.org would rule the land. Probably be a utopia for you huh?

I guess I would move back to France, as it would be far more conservative than the US.

Didn't know you had such disdain for Christians to brush us all as hate mongers in one fell swoop.

Ooops, I put Brians name in the name field by accident in the previous post. Sorry bout that.

"I say let's deport the Christians as well. They too are always spreading hate."

Brian,
The mere fact that you have generalized speaks volumes. I RESENT your comment! I am Christian, but I DON'T hate. It appeears that you are accusing others (i.e. Christians) of the very thing (i.e. hatred) of which you, yourself, are guilty (reference your quoted statement above).

I find this interesting Dan and Bunny. Brian was criticizing the logic of Steve of deporting people of Islamic faith for the acts of a few by saying the same about christians and acts of a few.

You are bothered by his generalization of christians but not islamists.
Should we take from this from you that you find generalization is OK unless it is you who is being generlized.

There's a very dangerous logic at work here amongst the people who are supporting the Patriot Act. It goes like this:

"Why should I care if the government is destroying people's consititutional rights, as long as they're not coming after me right now?"

People would be well served to heed the words of Pastor Martin Neimoller, survivor of the Nazi concentratrion camps:

First they came for the Communists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, but by that time, no one was left to speak up.

In other words--don't think you're "safe" just because the government is going after anyone who they feel they can get away with labelling a "terrorist".

They have already demonized the entire Muslim community, as the horribly bigotted call to "deport all Islamics" above shows. They have moved on to immigrants and their attorneys, as the attacks on immigrant workers at TIMCO and on attorneys like Manlin Chee, Brandon Mayfield, and Lynne Stewart shows. In fact, we could update Neimoller's quote to read, "First they came for the Muslims, then they came for the attorneys..." I'd rather not wait to see who's next on the list--I'd rather get to work stopping this police state in its tracks.

You have a choice--understand what's going on and stand with the first victims of this new police state, or get with the fascists and help usher in a new American Reich. Or stand in the middle and act like a good German--blissfully and willfully ignorant.

Hayes,

I know this is going back to the top of the stream of letters, but my "over my dead body" comment was made to the original letter writer. It just seemed like it would fit perfectly at the bottom of the letter. Right behind "Hear my voice now!"

Since the government doesn't know who they are looking for they treat us all as if we are under suspision. It doesn't sound like the mark of a free people to me. With improving technology the government databases are going to put Stalinist Russia to shame on the amount of data that they can gather on us.

A free people should be jealous of their freedom and not so eager to trade it from a false sense of security. Russia is infinitely less free than us yet they are no less vulnerable to terrorism than us. Ditto any number of other countries.

I'm not sure how much the PA has done for us anyway. I'm not aware of any of its provisions making any material difference in any case (admittedly it might not be something that is publicized).

Scott, You have used some strong words and ideas in your posts but have made some very valid points. People seldom realize how insideous evil is until it bites them in the proverbial butt.

Evil does not stand up and scream "I'm evil" but rather wears the face of patriotism in this case. When one dares, therefore, to question evil they are called unpatriotic.

Then there are those who blindly support the president in anything he states is necessary and good for the security of the nation (patriotic inference again).

The Patriot Act is anything but patriotic. It gives the president, the FBI, the CIA, the secret service, congress at the state and federal level and local law enforcement the right to violate any personal freedoms you thought you had. Smacks of McCarthyism doesn't it? Especially when the previously mentioned folks do not have to justify or prove anything before launching an attack.

I'd bet most of those family, friends and neighbors that someone accused of being a communist felt they had nothing to fear, much like some of the people posting here.

Osama outsmarted us as a nation. We have reacted to fear by supporting Bush in this Patriot Act BS just as he wanted us to. Osama was wise enough to know when people are fearful they make foolish mistakes.

Osama has succeeded in tricking us into war (that he didn't have to involve himself in because we took Sadam out for him), spreading ourselves too thin militarily, bankrupting ourselves as a nation, creating a nation divided and encouraging Bush to lead the American people into thinking we are invincible.

In his book "The Art of War" Sun Tzu addressed the arrogance of leaders who think like Bush (invincible and infallable) by saying "...if he is arrogant, try to encourage his egotism."

When are we, as a nation going to quit encouraging Bush's egotism, by refusing to blindly support him in actions that do not benefit us as a nation? When are we going to stop allowing ourselves to be controlled by a leader who uses fear to conquer us?

Like you said Scott, we may think collectively we are not at risk. But individually we have a lot to lose if we happen to innocently become a target.

Tim, Brian mentioned Christians, so I was replying directly to his post, not the ones for Islamists. Besides, I hope you can spot the humor in my post, I was not being serious at all EXCEPT his wide spread condemnation of Christians as hate mongers.

I want to clarify a statement I made earlier. 9/11 was a happy time for our government. They used that unspeakable event to widen their powers. It was an EXCUSE, not for any noble reason.
To exclude themselves from prejudice, they took the liberty (literally) of making everyone a victim of their greed for power.
If a solution, other than their power grab, were found to be viable, it would never be considered.
WHEN the next terrorist attack occurs, it will not be, according to their disinformation, their fault. We will be led to believe it was because they were not comprehensive in their pursuit of total control.

Don't have much time, but Yvonne & Scott, you guys sound so paranoid. I get up every morning, work, play, drive anywhere I want, go anywhere I want and don't feel that the government is going to watch my every move and make me a "target". The only exception being when I pay my taxes.

I guess Scott supports illegals working on aircraft at TIMCO which could be used as missles or bombs. Before you say I'm crazy, the exact same thing was done on 9/11.

You guys need to lighten up and not feel that black helicopters are chasing you.

I didn't mean seriously that I wanted Christians deported. Was just making a point about mainstream American views of Muslims. Sounds scary when you replace "Islamist" with "Christian" eh? It's the fundamentalists that we have to worry about, in any religion.

Dan, I, too, enjoy life every day and give thanks to God for each and every one of those days. But that doesn't make me impervious to the possibility that one day my life may change in a flash because of a document that gives others carte blanc to violate my freedoms.

Does that make me paranoid? Possibly. But I challange you to pick your favorite search engine and read the personal accounts of people who thought they had nothing to fear from the PA. People like you and me who were living their lives without ever thinking they could be affected by some Washington generated document that sets aside all civil liberties.

Mr t point taken or accepted, didnt loose any sleep over it actually slept quite well.

Dan, I cant and wont speak for Yvonne and Scott, but I dont look over my shoulder in fear that some black helmet government agent is watching me. But my concern is that in a society where already people rights are being abused or imfringed upon either intentionally or not, that we have open further doors for this to happen. I only wonder where this will take us down the road. I will us your example about the illegal aliens. I agree with you that something needs to be done and the fact this exists shows we have not learned that much from 911. But can we not find a solution to this without giving the government the right to come into my emails or enter my house without permission? I think is it is dangerous to assume they will use these new laws only against "terrorists".

Brian like your last sentence about fundamentalists.

Quite frankly I wish the moderate politicians in both parties would come together and give a loud voice for those in the middle of all this and if not actually form a party for the middle. I still believe most of this country is in the middle and can actually sit down with someone of different views and have a good and energized conversation.

Or maybe I am drinking to many Mountain Dews and my head is all screwed up.

Bottle or can Hayes? I have heard drinking from cans has been linked to all sorts of ailments, including alzheimers. Also heard artificial sweetners have bad side-effects. So are ya drinking the leaded or unleaded varity?

Um... Perhaps I can blame my ailment (liberalism) on drinking diet sodas from a can, sue everybody and retire from the work force.

You have "gotten" the point I was trying to make about the PA, Hayes. Your style of stating your point is superior to mine so I'm glad you posted.

Before I enter into a discussion I like to google the issue. I do not look for validation of my views but try to enter my search from a neutral starting place. When I looked up the PA and its uses since initiated, I was shocked. I could not believe such things could be happening to innocent people right here in America. People who just happen to be in the right place at the wrong time.

Although I classify myself as liberal, I am pretty much in that middle you are talking about (regarding most subjects). As Mr. P and Marshall often point out, they think the extremists on both sides are in the minority thus making the middle the majority. So, why can't we find a representative?

Yvonne, I would be most happy to stand for election and have you, Marshall and Hayes in my cabinet and one of you for VP.(you all have to fight that out amongst yourselves, hahah) Dan you are invited to come on board also. Unfortunately some of the others on here will not be invited to join since I have no need for a propaganda machine. I can head up the "war room" on psychological warfare since that was one of my areas of expertise and offer suggestions while someone else actually does the writing and publishing.
There will be some planks in my platform that some of you will not agree with but I am sure that we can find a good middle ground on subjects concerning welfare (will be changed to workfare which has worked well in many states and a program I designed in college is still working in several public housing authorities), education,(no more teaching for the test, no more bussing of students which is illegal anyhow, teachers will be assigned for the good of the service, sorta like the military when it comes to duty assignments). social security,(will be overhauled from top to bottom with no fear of losing votes cause I don't care. No stock market direct stuff but a plan simular to the THRIFT plan that works so well for Congress and other government employees.( defence(that's one where I insist on a strong plank)medical care, energy policy(the eco-terriorist will hate us on this one because I don't give a rats butt about some dang weed growning in the middle of a Texas oilfield that keeps it shut down while I have to pay out the ears for gas.) I beleive in compulsory military or civilian duty for all indivduals upon reaching the age of 18 and completion of the secondary education program. Two years will be served period, no and if's or buts .If one is not physically able to serve in the military then civilian programs in which service is given to the elderly, the disabled, the mentally impaired, the undereducated and illiterate, medical fields and a few more. There will be a 4 year active reserve time for military and those in the civilian service and an additional 2 years inactive duty)I know lots of folks ain't gonna like that deal. Upon completion of this service then university or technical training will be made available on a low costor no cost program provided by the government and the investment of the individuals in these programs. This is simular to the VA educational bill of rights but with no outright money grants going to the individual only free titution and books and fees.) After these individuals have completed this time of service I strongly believe that they will be in a much better position to evaluate their lives and make better decisions on their life's work. It also relieves parents of the financial burden that "some" of these with no clue of what where or whence they are going creates.
Foreign aid will be a thing of 'Needs" basis not who can we buy friendship with. No foreign aid will be given for military hardware or weapons development. If it is found that the aid is or has been used for this then all aid will be stopped and all monies will be returned on a payment plan. There will be no outright grants to any country with the ability to repay, all aid will be in form of loans and repayment will be enforced by a collolition of nations with no vested interest. Money for aid will first be given to those nations who are making an attempt to cure the maladies which are facing them and lack the monetary means to do such. Money will go to feed the nations and not arm them. Money will go to educate them on how to feed them selves and not arm themselves first. My plan is based on the idea that it is better to teach a person to fish rather than give them a fish just for today.
The UN will reform or disband. (Hayes, this may be your area of expertise )
Well that is the beginning of my platform, anybody want to get on board

Sounds like a plan to me. Count on my support and vote. I just wanna make sure Dan has absolutely no access to any cyanide before being in a closed room with him. He is a nice guy most of the time but even nice guys succumb to temptation sometimes.

I say pick a bar and lets meet and solve the worlds problems. So long as the bar has Mountain Dew. Heck we cant to worse than our noble politicíans in washington.

Yea, I pulled Dan in there to keep us on our toes and bring a little excitement to the group because it is for sure, one never knows what Dan will be up to or say next.

Don't hang in bars anymore and don't remember many who had Mountain Dew. We may have to find us a good ole fashioned "redneck" country store and resturant to meet in. I am sure they will have lots of Mountain Dew on hand. hahahha. Don't ya just love it!! I take a Serria Mist or Sprite or good sweet ice tea myself. If it is early enough bring on the strong, full leaded coffee and hold the cream and sugar. I like the kind that can be use to kick start a battery on your car.

mrproduce, I am hurt you didnt invite ME! LOL.. Where would all the fun come from if I wasnt on board? Who never gives up to get to the bottom of a good mystery? Who loves you mrproduce? LOL Geeeeeeeee....

I must say I am honored to be invited to the pow wow, and we do need to have Lilly there as well. I guess I will have to scrape my "W" sticker off the back of my SUV, lest it be damaged in the parking lot.

It's funny, when I started this blogging, I would tend to have negative thoughts about the person like Yvonne & Lilly in addition to their ideas. But now I feel like were kinda like a family who likes and respects one another even though we don't agree on everything.

Don't worry Yvonne, I only want to poison your mind with conservative thought, I will leave your body alone!!

To Yvonne
I would not say my stlye is superior. You make some very good points. I would only make one suggestion and if you tell me to stick in my ear then point taken.
If someone loses the ability to debate your ideas and can only attack your personally dont react in kind ,walk away ,and take it as a compliment.

I practicing to take over Dr. Phil's job here. i understand he wants to retire.

Hayes, You can relax. I'm not going to respond negatively to your suggestion. I actually think you are right and most of the time withdraw from the discussion when I think there is nothing to be gained by continuing. I do, however, get carried away at times. So thanks for reminding me to be more diligent about keeping those times to a minimum.

Now about that Dr. Phil understudy position. You know you would have to come up with some original hard hitting short phrases. "How's that working for you?" and "What the hell were you thinking?" are my favorite Philisms. What do you have in mind for Hayesisms?

Naw Dan you don't have to take the W off your SUV. It will fit well next to my pickup truck. You remember we gonna meet in a country place not a city bar and the hot bed of "farleft loonies"(this doesn't fit anyone in this group I have selected for my cabinet and advisors) We are the core of this country and we don't really care if you ride on the back of a donkey or an elephant. What we care about is if you can think and understand that there will always be differences but that those differences are never too large to overcome when folks can think and share opinions without screaming, ranting and degrading the other person because they think they are the only one that is right.

Yea, I guess Lilly can come along too. Wouldn't want to leave out a breath of comic relief along the way. Don't go messing with Yvonne's mind to awful much since a different view point is always needed along with her medical skills. Don't know about her body so I ain't even going there. Don't want to be accused by some of acting like , well, you know.

Dan,

About TIMCO--there have been NO allegations that any of the workers arrested there were involved in anything remotely connected to terrorism. The fact that you assume that they were goes to show how far the government has gone in criminalizing whole groups of people in the public mind.

If you're going to investigate terrorism, and terrorist plots, then that's what you're going to do. If you're out to make people think that all immigrants, or all Muslims, or all dissidents, or anyone else who doesn't "fit in", is a threat to national security, then you pull publicity stunts like arresting all the immigrants at TIMCO.

I'm like, excuse me, has anyone ever heard of Timothy McVeigh? White Americans are just as likely to be terrorists. This was not a terrorism investigation. It was a publicity stunt designed to do two things: make people fearful of immigrants, and elicit support for the state to crack down on immigrants.

And it's obviously working.

So if they can go after immigrants who aren't terrorists in the name of the war on terrorism, what's to stop them from coming after you?

Scott my friend, here is my quote "I guess Scott supports illegals working on aircraft at TIMCO which could be used as missles or bombs. Before you say I'm crazy, the exact same thing was done on 9/11."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this statement does not say the illegals at TIMCO had anything to do with terrorism. My point is that it COULD happen. Terrorists are crazy in my mind, but they are not stupid. They find weaknesses in our system and exploit them. Having access every part of a large jet would be an excellent way of carrying out a terrorist act, like planting a bomb somewhere where it would not be detected.

While you are on your pro-immigrant high horse, I will let you know I have no problem with immigration if it is legal. The people at TIMCO, no matter what nice folks they are, were here ILLEGALLY. What part of illegal do you not understand? When I lived in France, I got all the of the proper documentation and moved there LEGALLY.

I agree with you that a large majority of immigrants are good people who want the best for their family, but we do have laws. If they are not respected, or not enforced (which they aren't) what good are the laws?

I also agree that we have nuts like McVeigh & Eric Rudolph, but look at the majority of terrorist attacks over the last decades. They were all carried out by Muslims.

"So if they can go after immigrants who aren't terrorists in the name of the war on terrorism, what's to stop them from coming after you?"

This quote takes the cake. You fail to mention ILLEGAL immigrants. What's to stop them from going after me? I am a legal, law abiding U.S. citizen who has no ties to terrorist activity. That's what will stop them from coming after me.

Dan
this may come as a shocker but on most of your points I agree on. Terrorists are not stupid and time and patience is their greatest advantage over us. I am not sure what TIMCO is maybe someone can explain but there are certain industries as I live in germany now that need extra attention in safety and security. Ilegal or legal can be irrelevant as some of the 911 terrorists were here legally. Maybenot as immigrants but in the country nevertheless.

My only difference here is with Timothy Mcviegh. There have been three major terrorists acts in this country and one was homegrown. After listening to a leader of an Aaryan(?) group and how they view bonbing govt buildings I wonder why the govt doesnt pursue them with the same aggresiveness. I doubt the victims and survivors of Okl. City go to bed at night and sleep better than those of 911 because their terrorist was homegrown. Terrorism is terrorism and if the task of Homeland Security is to protect us from terrorism it should cover the whole spectrum.

Hayes: TIMCO is a large company with multiple locations, one being at the Greensboro airport. They do contract maintenance on large jets for the airlines, cargo companies, and others. The jets are there for weeks or even months at a time, which would give someone ample opportunity to tamper with them.

hmmmm Hayes didn't know you were residing in Germany when I asked you to come aboard the Presidential run. I am sure however that you could well serve as the foreign affairs person dealing with the EU and could be of great aid in working with Germany and France.(Dan may have to be returned to France since he has intimate knowledge of that part of the EU) I am sure that Yvonne, whether serving as VP or Sec of State will be visiting you quite often. Perhaps since we will be running on a very tight budget she could at least sleep on your sofa while she is on business there.

Hayes, You may not have read or heard about the young NC college student who put weapons on about 15 planes in order to call attention to how poorly airline security is being managed. If you know about this perhaps you can appreciate Dan's position about illegals at TIMCO.

I think his concern (correct me if I'm wrong Dan) is the lack of security at places who would knowingly hire illegals whose background checks cannot be obtained. As you pointed out, those who would undermine our country come in all flavors.

Personally, I think any employer who knowingly hires illegals, whether US security is at risk or not, should be fined. Just try telling a cop who stops you for speeding that having to pay a fine was unfair because you were not breaking the law but by a fraction over the limit. He/she will tell you illegal is illegal so shut up and pay up.

Dan, Like you told me, I hope you have plenty of patience. I'm a hard sell. And don't go getting the idea that because I understand and agree with you about illegals that I also support the PA. I think your hero flubbed this one too.

Kidding aside, I have some liberal and conservative leanings. Does that make me a libecon or a conlibe?

"Kidding aside, I have some liberal and conservative leanings. Does that make me a libecon or a conlibe?"

Make you an honest person and certainly one to be admired for admitting such in time like these.
Too many want to look into the tool box and see many hammers but only want to claim that the one they hold in their hand is the only true and right hammer for the job at hand.

First Dan thanks for the info.

Yes Yvonne I read about the student which one of the reasons why I stand behind Dan on this.

Yes I live in germany with my beautiful german wife, but very proud to be an american and I am a born and bred carolinian southerner from greensboro. Still have my southern accent. Actually wear it aa a badge of honor.

Mr. P,

Throw in the CAFE into an energy policy & I'm on board. I don't want to be VP. The big money's in the cabinet. Companies that your regulate can be most generous

Yeah I can count that payola after I leave the government already.

Patriot Act intruding on our private lives
[How much longer will Americans permit the Bush administration to interfere in personal lives?]

I think the administration is doing all it can in an era of non-stop party bickering. Everyone wants security, but nobody wants 'civil liberties infringed upon'. I say -> IF YOU DON'T LIKE USA LISTENING IN ON YOUR PHONE CALLS TO TERRORISTS - THEN DON'T CALL TERRORISTS! Like one of the others said (bOB), if you aren't doing anything wrong, then it doesn't effect you! Remember what they (the gov't) is actually doing - they are monitoring calls, emails, etc,from people INSIDE the USA to people KNOWN to be terrorists OUTSIDE the USA.

If you can read this letter, thank a teacher. If you are reading this in English, thank a Soldier!