If the elected officials cared about the citizens of this state, they would resolve the high tuition that in-state state students already have to pay! It should be apparent to anyone with an ounce of common sense that the average citizen of this state no longer matters to the legislature.

I don't think state legislators are thinking clearly on this one. There is a lot of opposition to this bill and it will only get worse.

My response to this whole matter:
here.

looks like a bright red herring. undocumented students have to qualify for entry to the college. if a background check is required and they can't pass it because they have no documentation, they can't get in and tuition is a nonissue. besides, more people will be killed as a result of increased poverty than the freak coed killer, so even the hysteria falls flat.

how many of our documented kids will be denied? all those who grew up with the wealth of the US and got 12 years of first world education but still can't beat out an economic refugee from latin america. i defy you to watch the documentaries Born Into Brothels and Lost Boys of Sudan and not feel a little uneasy about denying these innocent kids an opportunity.

folks complaining that lower tuition encourages harmful immigration is one thing (and doubtful). but here the middle class is arguing that they don't think their entitlement should be shared with anyone else. entitlement as in charity, even if it happens to be squeezed out of fellow taxpayers by law. usually we means test charity and entitlement - we help the needy, not those who can do for themselves. and spare me the i pay taxes speech, we all do and then we funnel a bunch to a few who happen to go to college here.

there's a pragmatic reason to give illegals a break. they're here, and if we don't begin promoting them into the middle class with education soon, we'll end up with a persistent underclass. populations are projected to damatically shrink for all major western nations through 2050, causing concern of economic collapse. the exception is the US because of immigration. these immigrants, properly cultivated, may in fact be our saving grace. but i'm not an economist.

as for high tuition, depends on whether your complaint is that the taxpayers should subsidize more or it should hold the universities more accountable on the way they spend. i can agree on the latter, but you can probably guess from the foregoing i think the former is dead wrong. college education in a reasonable major is easily the best investment you can make. you can finance it without any real collateral. why should someone contribute to your kid's education when no one contributes to, say, another kid's new business? heck, i didn't even expect my parents (who worked their way through college and out of poverty) to pay for my education, why would i have expected taxpayers to? bear in mind i'm not suggesting we spend any less on education or even tuition subsidies, only that if the justification is social engineering, let's do it right, and if the justification is rebate on taxes we've paid, recognize that in that regard it's merely a redistribution from some taxpayers to others.

I really don't know what folks in Raleigh are thinking of. Let me get this straight: If you are a U.S. Citizen and you live in Virginia and want to go to college in North Carolina you have to pay out-of-state tuition; if you comply with the law and apply for a student visa to come here and study from, say China, you have to pay out-of-state tuition; but, if you break the law and come here illegally, you get a break on your tuition. Talk about perverse incentives. These folks really want to reward folks for breaking the law. As Yakov Shmirnov (sp) would say "Whaaat a country!" We need to run these legislators out of town on rails.

why would you want to subsidize students from virginia or china? sure there some reasons (diversity, etc), but not significant. why would you want to subsidize an illegal? because they are already here and if you don't they will stay here and be poor, and poor people are a burden. educate them, they wont be poor, you won't have to support them, and they may even contribute to your social security and buy your products and services. perhaps the offer of half-priced tuition will encourage immigration, but considering why they come now, seems it wouldn't have any real effect. also, we might gain some utility from knowing we helped someone rise out of poverty with education.

Paul,

If that same student in Virginia, already a U.S. citizen, moves to North Carolina and graduates from a North Carolina high school, he/she will be eligible for in-state tuition. The proposed law makes the immigrant go to high school for four years and apply for citizenship before he/she is eligible for in-state tuition.

"Whaaat a country!", indeed.

Dave, I responded to the comments you left on my blog here.

One argument I'll make here, in response to your question. why would you want to subsidize an illegal? because they are already here and if you don't they will stay here and be poor, and poor people are a burden.

If an illegal immigrant is here, why not apply the law and return them to their country of origin? Just because they are already here doesn't mean they haven't broken U.S. law and shouldn't entitle them to stay and take advantage of the benefits of a U.S. citizen.

Let me iterate: I am very much in favor of legal immigration. I think immigration is our legacy and our strength. I do not feel inclined to subsidize those who would enter the U.S. illegally at the expense of those who follow legal channels to pursue the "American Dream".

Don't know if any of you have been keeping up the the Minutemen on the AZ border this month. A group of volunteers who are patrolling the border and notify border patrol when they see illegals crossing.

I heard they have had over 14,000 requests from other Americans who want to join in, and are organizing other Minutemen groups to patrol in other areas.

People are fed up with illegal immigration and both parties are doing nothing about it. In fact there are birdbrains like our state legislators who want to reward illegal immigration. That leaves the people itself to do something and I applaud the Minutemen.

I just got a solicitation from the RNC for money this week. I mailed back the envelope with no money, but with a statement "No border patrol no donation".

i responded to kehaar on his blogsite.
unless you really believe that lower tuition is going to draw illegals, it has nothing to do with the level of illegal immigration. want to fix that, penalize employers hard for hiring illegals and provide a fast track to legalization to meet the employer's (and consumer's) demand.

the kid didn't do anything "illegal", his parent did. you feel good about sticking him for that? would you still if he were a white protestant? regardless, until you can deport him (which won't happen), we have to deal with him. he is an asset you can either make productive or just pay to maintain. we and he will both be better off if we do the former, otherwise it's self-fulfilling prophecy.

you should tear up the GOP solicitation until they commit to balancing the budget anyway. that's taking far more decent jobs than immigrants ever could.

I would like to share an experience I had while living in Puerto Rico. My father had recently been killed and my baby brother (14 at the time) needed a home. I invited him to live with my (ex now) husband, myself and my two young children. All was well until it was time to register him in school. In order for him to attend school where teachers spoke English, I had to pay an enormous amount of money for a private school.

I realize that was a long time ago but I think of it every time someone wants to give illegals more of our American kids' school money. Puerto Rico is a US domain and was then. But they did not provide an education for my brother for free. And we were there legally.

My objection to illegals having any benefits of the American taxpayer has nothing to do with security. It is all about right and wrong. Americans are penalized in some form or another for breaking the laws of the land but some pc goofballs want to REWARD illegals for breaking the law. There is something too twisted for words about this.

I do hate being so harsh and bull headed about this but I really don't care if it is not the fault of the children of illegals. Illegal is illegal is illegal and no amount of argueing about it will ever make illegal legal.

It really burns my butt that there is a bill to prevent American kids who have made a mistake a second chance in our educational system but some bozos want to allow in-state fees for illegals at state supported colleges. Such reasoning is beyond my comprehension.

I'm with the minutemen in Arizona. Find um, load um up and deposit um back in their homeland. If the government had any gumption at all they would start enforcing our immigration laws.

The US did subsidize your brother's schooling in Puerto rico, albeit indirectly, by allowing duty free trade with the US, enormous tax incentives for US companies doing business in PR, and mandating a minimum wage. If we did that with Mexico we wouldn't have any immigration! Anyway, the world is full of people more needy and deserving than me, you or illegal immigrants. So what? Forget PC, giving illegals instate tuition isn't charity, we want to give it to them for our own social engineering objectives. Keeping people stupid who could be smart is expensive - there are people who benefited from Jim Crow, but as a country we did not.

If I'm hearing you right, you're saying regardless of whether it promotes our economic objectives, we should not provide the benefit as a matter of principal. I find that "principal" disturbing coming from a citizen of a wealthy, democratic nation. Are the children of illegal immigrants illegal as a personal status like Dredd Scott being black http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aia/part4/4p2932.html ? Like an Untouchable in India ( http://magma.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0306/feature1/ ) ? Like a Tutsi in 1994 Rwanda http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_Genocide ? Illegal like women voting in the US before 1920? Illegal like the interned Japanese in WWII (as argued by California farmers who didn’t want to compete with the hardworking Japanese farmers and politicians who wanted to inflame voters)? Immigration is "illegal" because they come in when we say not to. But for us it's simply a matter of fluctuating economic policy, even when illegal it's not immoral or inherently destructive like stealing or disobeying the speed limit. My point is not that immigration should be freer or we shouldn't deport, but that it is not a taint or debt that carries to the son and justifies writing him off as a second class non-citizen - there is no moral justification for cutting off our nose to spite our face. Illegal may be illegal, but he didn't do it. And there IS an economic benefit to us in providing him with a college education.

I also find it odd that you can be so dogmatic against someone on the bottom rung while so forgiving of "second chance" students who started on a higher rung and blew it. Thee are literally billions of kids desperate for half that chance.

I paid well over $20k in NC state income tax (not including payroll tax for employees), which is a lot more than most. I don't get squat from the guv'mnt. So, what burns MY butt is hearing all these people who aren't destitute, don't work as hard as most of these illegal immigrants, and who essentially enjoy my charity (which is "legally" taken from me) complain about giving a modest benefit to some innocent kid who beat the odds. Lots of talk about core values these days, but all I'm hearing is self-interested nationalism.

Final note: it's doubtful illegal immigrants currently cost you anything. Check out
http://www.economist.com/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3738772 . Mentions Puerto Rico, and includes this nugget:
"The difficulty is to reconcile economic reality with political reality. Most economists believe immigration is an economic plus, not least because most immigrants arrive as young and healthy adults. Taking the difference between taxes paid and benefits received by immigrants, the National Research Council reported in 1997 that there was a “significant positive gain” of up to $10 billion a year to native Americans, noting that while an immigrant with less than high-school education had a negative long-term fiscal impact of $13,000, a better educated immigrant produced a long-term gain of $198,000. In 2002 the President's Council of Economic Advisers put the gain at up to $14 billion a year."

I think I'll go be a border patrol person for a while. *cleaning my AK-47* Enough is ENOUGH. Ola, Que Pasa.. *rat-ta-tat-tat*

I think people who jokingly refer to violence like this should go be border patrol. At least they won't be in North Carolina.

Dave, Here are a few facts for you to chew on for a while: "Illegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. Lou Dobbs recently reported that 33 percent of our prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, 36 to 42 percent of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work."

"Illegal aliens absolutely do not contribute more than they cost. Certainly the millions in prison and on welfare aren't contributing a dime to our economy, and the ones who are working often are paid in cash with no deductions for taxes at all. The ones who use fraudulent social security numbers and qualify to pay taxes and social security have so many deductions for dependents that they pay little if any taxes. We have seen them pay less than $100 in taxes and get back $4,000 refunds (thanks to earned income tax credits and multiple dependents). The Center for Immigration Studies estimates that the average Mexican illegal alien costs U.S. taxpayers a whopping $55,000 each. Some bargain, eh?"

"Mexico is NOT a poor country. It has the fifth richest economy in the world, and by sending its teeming masses to our country, that status keeps on rising. Mexico has more resources per square mile than the U.S. and plenty of money to take care of its own people. Why should the taxpayers of this country subsidize Mexico's corruption?"

"The economy does NOT depend on illegal aliens. Sure, greedy CEOs (making $50 to $150 MILLION a year) and business owners depend on illegal aliens, but the only thing illegal aliens are contributing to is the collapse of our economy and making the rich richer."

"An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration and the cost for providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a year - FAIR research."

"FAIR research shows "the net annual cost of immigration has been estimated at between $67 and $87 billion a year. The National Academy of Sciences found that the net fiscal drain on American taxpayers is between $166 and $226 a year per native household."

"Even studies claiming some modest overall gain for the economy from immigration ($1 to $10 billion a year) have found that it is outweighed by the fiscal cost ($15 to $20 billion a year) to native taxpayers."

"$60 billion dollars are earned by illegal aliens in the U.S. each year. One of Mexico's largest revenue streams (after exports and oil sales) consists of money sent home by legal immigrants and illegal aliens working in the U.S. Economists say this will help Mexico reduce its $17.8 billion defecit and may bolster the peso. $10 billion dollars are sent back to Mexico annually, according to the Pew Hispanic Center, reported in an Associated Press article, up $800 million from the previous year."

For more reading and facts you may go to www.theamericanresistance.com.

I know this thread is about in-state tuition for illegals but I just wanted to give you an example as to why American taxpayers (who contribute to state supported colleges) should not have to support crime in this manner. I'm sorry but your theory comes up short when one sits down and makes a pro/con list. You can manipulate this issue any way you desire but there are many things that work in theory only. This is one of them, IMO.

My statement was, is and will be no more support for illegals. Round them up and send them back to Mexico. As you can see from the short examples I have given you, it is in our best interest financially to send them home and keep them there.

It is past time the citizens of the US stand up and demand our government stop this takeover of our economy and country. If we're not going to do that, annex Mexico, make it a state and tax the hell out of them the way the government does us. Then this issue would be a non-issue.

Facts? Thats funny Yvonne. The opinions you wrote above are from a vehemently anti-immigration website. Facts? Ever heard of a vested interest? These statistics are from organizations that are not unbiased. That means the data is suspect, and is more than likely exaggerated.

Now, for my opinion. Undocumented immigrants are less of a threat than the drug dealers down on the block plying their wares to our children. Sure, in any population, there are bad apples. But seriously folks, if you're worried about Sept. 11, all those religious radicals entered the USA legally.

Educating people is a good thing. Maybe, just maybe, the next 'illegal' will be the person who discovers a cure for AIDS. But, since we want them stupid for our labor, that'll never happen. If you are that fired up about people coming here to better their lives, then I ask that you look back at how the Italians were treated; how the Irish were treated; how many immigrants were treated prior to their acceptance into our society.

And this doesn't even touch how africans were teated.

Give them a break and quit worrying.

Jim, The information I gave was not the only info available to those who want the truth about what is happening to our nation.

The reason I did not include governmental information re illegals is because I could find only old info from 1995. But even then according to the US government's cost/benefit analysis, illegals were putting the American taxpayer in the hole to the tune of 9 billion dollars/year. As folks are always saying, do the math.

With illegals coming here and taking jobs you would think US citizens would top the list of those on welfare. Not so, according to the government. 9.1% hispanics were on welfare as compared to 7.4% native citizens.

Most of the drug dealers in my neighborhood ARE hispanic. Most of the drivers without license and insurance involved in wrecks are hispanic. Most of the admissions to our hospital for aids and TB are hispanic. Most of the visits to the ED for non-emergent care and without insurance are hispanic. (Beginning to get the picture)

You may think illegals are not a threat to our country but you are dead wrong. However, if it makes you feel better to think I'm being dogmatic or any other term you choose, then so be it.

You and Dave both are championing "give the poor kids a break so they don't end up stupid". If they didn't start out stupid and have any motivation whatsoever they won't end up stupid. You have only to pick up the papers to read about motivated people overcoming tremendous odds to educate themselves. I think, if these illegals want a higher education, let them get it where they are not illegal, Mexico.

If illegals want the perks of native citizens, then let them become legal. If they have graduated HS, then they are old enough to start the process. In my town the Hispanic Coalition is very strong and helps those willing to help themselves. If these kids are smart enough to go to college, they are smart enough to become legal.

I agree even legal immigrants have been mistreated in the USA. So why would you expect illegals to be treated better. Besides the issue is not treatment, it is giving aid to illegals or making special concessions for them.

As I said in an earlier post, my concern has little to do with security per se. My concern is the loss of our culture and heritage. The threat of that is insideously creeping in and we are supporting it. We are talking illegals, people who are in violation of the law. Laws Americans are bound by but not illegals.

What other country have we made so many concessions for? Hired Spanish speaking teachers, police, health care professionals, interperters, firefighters and on and on? If you don't already know Spanish, I suggest you learn. Otherwise you are going to be a stranger in your own land!

Yikes! I checked out your link to the anti-immigration website, Yvonne. It is a real winner. I loved all those “facts”. Dave made his case with unbiased information. You should try again.
Lilly, are you going to “rat-ta-tat-tat” the women and children? How about pregnant women? What will you do if someone “rat-ta-tat-tat’s” back at you?

All these opinions and letters and longings for resolution are the effect of a misguided notion. We still believe the government should care!

They don't, they can't. Individual progression outside the constraints of their imposition is the only hope. Does our cowardice need an enemy?

Henry, Apparently you did not check out the web sites Dave gave. I did. What relevance he thought they had on our discussion about illegals getting to go to a state supported school and pay in-state fees was lost on me.

An example is the Dred Scott case, the first one listed. He sued to try to become a legal citizen of the US. Illegals today don't have to sue. All they have to do is exercise a little effort and they can become legal. In fact, as I said, were they to do that we wouldn't be having this discussion. The problem is not that they can't become legal rather that they won't.

Somewhere in this discussion some of you have assumed I am aganist hispanics and immigration. I am not aganist any group of people who come to this country LEGALLY and do not have their hands held out for government assistance upon arrival. But I am more than a little weary of rewarding illegals for being illegal.

I will reiterate, if these kids are smart enough to go to college, they are smart enough to get legal. If they aren't that smart, then shoveling money and opportunities at them won't make them smarter.

Steve, Well spoken. In an earlier post on illegals, I thought your post about them possibly being here by design rather than happenstance was far-fetched. I was wrong. You made sense then and even more now. Sorry.

lou dobbs?? you must be joking. see
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/dhenninger/?id=110004778

"mexico the fifth richest economy"? is that a typo? anyway, you can spin numbers a million ways, so "do the math" is meaningless unless you "show your work".

as to becoming a citizen, the proposed legislation requires they apply for citizenship in order to qualify for instate tuition. why might they not have applied earlier? because they (or more likely their parents) were afraid they'd be deported or punished by ratatataters?

you said "My concern is the loss of our culture and heritage." this phrase has become a euphemism for white supremist doctrine. that's not worth arguing.

my point with the links was that it's absurd to make a decision on the premise that "illegal is illegal" because even in fairly recent times our law has been clearly immoral and self-defeating and has been the product of racism and base economic self-interest. i'm blown away by your bizarre analysis of Dredd Scott. maybe we havent come all that far.

taxes? the top 5% pay about 68% of all income taxes. chances are you're still getting a killer good deal even if the immigrants soak up some of the government gravy.

i think you're letting your sense of victimization cloud your judgment. if you can deport or kill them you might save some tax dollars. if you can't do that, the cheapest solution is education. inhibiting education will cost more, and that will be the price of your revenge (on a kid who surmounted a bunch of big obstacles to do what most of the natives cant or won't do - get into college).

here's an analogous situation: crack babies. crack is illegal like being here undocumented, and we want to discourage crackhead moms like undocumented moms. suppose someone determines we could make crack babies self-supporting rather than a drag by paying for a special college tutorial program. would you say illegal is illegal and no way you're going to pay for that illegal baby? what's the difference? the crack mom didn't take your job?

btw, WHO is losing their job to an illegal immigrant?

immigration per se is a separate issue, but i hope you're not just getting your info just from the hate and fear mongers. because they probably won't mention the main reasons people are losing jobs, reasons like failure of workers to adapt to modernization, a soaring trade deficit, uncontrolled spending, a personal savings rate of less than 1%, an unbelievable high school dropout rate, trade wars resulting from special interest tariffs, and the list goes on like that. those reasons aren't simple or sexy, and sometimes they point back at us.

Dave, Your analogy of the crack baby and illegals' kids is like comparing apples to oranges. If a crack mom is a native citizen she is still a legal citizen and therefore her baby is legal. She DID something illegal but that doesn't make HER illegal. But if illegals bring their children into the country, their children are also illegal.

You may not agree with the laws of our land but that doesn't make them null and void. As I said, you can put any spin on it you want to suit your agenda but that does not make illegal, legal.

I am not feeling any sense of victimization. Perhaps you are doing some projecting here. Just because I disagree with your questionable rationalization doesn't mean I feel like a victim.

Fact: Illegals are here in violation of the law (which, btw, I didn't make).

Fact: Illegals (according to the US government) are a drain on the American taxpayer; their costs outweigh their benefits.

Fact: Illegals can become legal if they have enough motivation. There are several organizations who will help.

Fact: Many native citizens are losing their jobs to the cheap labor illegals provide (while illegals are keeping low paying jobs, low paying).

I am equally surprised and blown away by how little regard you seem to have for our laws and how determined you are to reward illegal behavior. I would think anyone who seems to be as intelligent as you are could see rather than making exceptions for illegals we should be giving them the motivation to become legal.

Exactly what obstacles are illegal kids overcoming? They are getting a free education (at the cost to the taxpayer of 7,000 bucks per kid), free healthcare, free food (in many instances). From where I'm sitting they are fareing as well as most American kids.

I sincerely hope you do not feel the contempt and lack of respect for American kids and adults that you are projecting in these posts.

I have come, have said what I had to say and am through with this thread. Good luck to you Dave. You haven't convinced me I should just give up the fight to try to make some very wrong things right but maybe you have someone else.