I read the other day that Army enlistments were down 42% in April - and the anouncement for May was being delayed ... (the months might be March / April) ... and this is with Our Tax Dollars PAYING signing bonuses "up to $20,000" per man.

This is only part of the unfunded liability in Iraq, the "war that would pay for iteslf in ool revenues ... the quick skirmish that would be over as flower carriers greeted our we marched into Bagdad ... "

" ...we want to fight them there and not on the streets of America ..." I actually sort of agree with that, but I'm not convinced we've done anything but incite hatred that will eventally come to our home streets.

... but of course, I'm considered unpatriotic. There's an old word riddle: "You can believe me because I never lie."

Chuck, with all the negative Iraq press of the Bush hating media, why would anyone want to join the military.

When was the last time you saw a positive article about the military on the television?

Kids today get their education from MTV, and CNNMSNBCABCCBSNBC, etc. as well as the liberally infested indoctronation centers known as public schools.

With all that cerebral stimulas that suggests "Military=bad" you question why there is a decline in recruiting?

If I were in a position to choose whether to join, the main disincentive in my mind would be "Who would I be killing for?" I firmly believe that the military is in Iraq to provide massive benefits to the ultra-rich of America. Why should a poor slob like me become a paid killer just to line their pockets even more than they already are?

You go Chuck. Hugh Jorgan is your first bush-head recruit. Hugh you head on down to the recruiting station and we'll see if you're still a bush-head when(if) you get back from Iraq.

Well I reckon everyone else who is asthmatic, suffering from myopia, and has previous surgery on their knee is a hypocrite and a coward. My wife and I separated a while back so I started wondering if I could enlist in the Army. After all, I believe in what our country is fighting for and my father was a Drill Seargent for a number of years.

You see, not everyone that supports the war CAN enlist. If you have asthma, regardless of how mild it is, (like myself) or previous surgeries on your knee (like myself) they won't take you; therefore, not everyone CAN go. So before you make such idiotic statements, generalizations, and inflamatory comments that blast anyone who supports the war....make sure you know what the hell you are talking about and can actually grasp the entire subject/audience. Being called "yellow" does tend to make a few people a little ill....

I don't think he was referring to the people who tried to enlist and couldn't. I think he was talking about the people who never even thought about joining or sending their kids, shout loud and long how much they support this war, slap those yellow ribbons on all their SUVs, and call the rest of us "unpatriotic" for being against the war.

Okay, all of you Bush supporters that have been going "rah! rah! rah!" for this war the past two years and now want us to go into Iran: you like to cheer and praise the heroes. Here's your chance to be one.

If you can send someone to fight and die for you, you should be willing to take up the gun and possibly die for another.

Or could it be that you are all for going to war, so long as it's not YOU that's actually doing the "going"? Robert E. Lee had it right: it is good that war is so horrible "lest we should become so fond of it." Too many people - and an uncomfortably large majority of them seem to have "W" stickers on their cars - want the war without having to see how terrible war is firsthand. It's *okay* to send other people's husbands and wives and sons and daughters to "go over there and fight for our freedoms" but if THEY get asked to do the same, they refuse. Some even dare say that "oh, I'm much more useful to America over here. Somebody else should do it."

There's a word for people like that: "cowards".

These people don't care how many Americans have died. They don't shed tears or offer up any sincere prayers for the families. Oh, they'll give some lip service to honoring the dead, but for the most part they despise being inconvenienced with "petty" matters that "only serve to boost the morale of our enemy."

I'll probably get labelled a "liberal" or "Democrat" because I dare speak out against Fearless Leader(tm)'s anointed wisdom. In fact, I'm neither... and people who reduce serious discussion to such meaningless appelations only prove that they have no right to serious discussion at all, because they can't even *think* for themselves without the Democrats(tm) or Republicans(tm) thinking for them.

People who support this war, without the will to go themselves or the will to even *question* said war, do this country a treason that their children will little doubt suffer for.

I think it is entirely possible to support our troops without being in the military.

I have NEVER had the desire to be in the military. Even during peace times. (They wouldn't take me anyway, but that is besides the point). The fact is that I have never had the desire to have someone bark orders at me and tell me what to do 24/7.

That doesn't mean, however, that I am a coward. I still support our troops in whatever endeavor they take on. And if you hear a "Rah, Rah, Rah" out of me, it will be for our troops.

Nice try, Chuck, but calling everyone who disagrees with you a coward or other insulting remarks isn't going to win you any converts.

Everyone knows I am not a Bush supporter, but I do believe this war is justified. Again, not a secret...you all know that about me.

But please understand. I AM SCARED!!!! Hell yes I am! That is exactly why I did not join the military. Because our country's military is there at the beck and call of our commander-in-chief. Our military is voluntary. Our military understood when they signed up (or at least should have) that as military personnel they could be called to active duty. If anyone joined the military thinking that would not happen, I can only say....DUH!!!!!!

Now as for my son...he is 14 and wants to join the airforce when he graduates. God that scares me, and I have told him to think long and hard before he goes. I have told him that I do not want him to do that. Because as a parent, I can't fathom the thought of losing a child. But I have also told him if he joined, I would NEVER be more proud!!!

To reiterate...Tony = scared...military = voluntary.

Any questions?

Tater, I don't have any experience with the military and asthma...however, I do know about knee surgery and I have to call you on that one. You see, my son will be going to Parris Island in August after having had knee surgery to remove a plica band. So...I guess either the miliary is more desperate now than when you tried to enlist or you misspoke with your generalization about knee surgery. Just wanted you to know. Oh, and just for the record and to reinforce the original author's point...our family does not now nor have we EVER supported Bush. To put it mildly and in language that can be printed here, we think he's an idiot. Yeah, yeah, I know...Commander in Chief...my son's boss and all that...he's still an idiot.

There is nothing wrong with joining the military. There is nothing wrong with NOT joining the military either. Each of us must walk to the beat of whatever drum our heart hears most. Strive to, anyway.

That said, it IS wrong to view those who have chosen this kind of service as a cheap, expendable resource, which has sadly become the mindset of many who fashion themselves "neo-conservatives". But they also tend to be the kind of people that believe it is perfectly okay to lie to those they are governing over (the "philosophy of deception" taught by Leo Strauss). EVERY life - be it American, Iraqi or whatever - is sacred. No one person should ever be fodder for the benefit of another.

Sorry Hugh, but it's not the liberals out there making enlistments decline. It's a rather simple thing. Dying.

I was still teaching during the 9/11 attacks and you should have seen the look in the young women and men's eyes who were reservists or guardsmen when I said, "It looks like war. You're MTV days are over." Every last one of them realized they were looking at the possibility of an early death. Of course, some had the bravado from memories of Desert Storm until I recommended several films and books on Vietnam.

Blame who you will. It boils down to the same thing as the late sixties and early seventies. Self-preservation and nothing else.

My dear Kel,

Based off what the Army recruiter said in Asheboro, NC a few weeks ago...it is UNLIKELY that I would be accepted. They "generally don't accept" people that have gone through major surgery to repair torn cartlidge, remove scar tissue, and an ACL tear just because they are unsure of how well it would hold up through basic. And also, the part about asthma is real because I don't think the Drill Seargent would want me in combat with him when we are charging a mound and I have to stop for a few minutes to puff on an inhaler. That just seems like common sense to me!!! So you may be right that they do accept people that have had surgery but it depends on what type. I could FORCE the issue and go through some sort procedure to be tested on the strength of my knee and severity of my asthma....but seeings that I am not that "hardcore" and thought again about being away from my 2 year old I chose not to pursue it any further.

I appreciate your enthusiasm and thank you for your comments but realize you did not "call my bluff" and there are exceptions to the rule.

Kel-

You said:
You see, my son will be going to Parris Island in August after having had knee surgery to remove a plica band.

Just so everyone knows, removing a plica band is not major knee surgery. It is arthoscopic surgery to remove an excess tissue growth. I had the same surgery in 1999. Painful for the first year afterwards, but nothing like what Tater is talking about. It's like comparing a tonsilectomy to a historectomy.

Well let me see. On the Fox 8 news this morning there was an "inspirational" story about a soldier from here in the Triad area who had part of one of his legs blown off due to a roadside bomb while serving in Iraq. Now, after being fitted with a prothesis and rehab, he is now RETURNING for a second tour of duty in Iraq.

This may be inspiring to some, however, to me, it is senseless. This is unheard of before in our history. Regardless of whether or not a solider wanted to return to combat, with an injury like this, military service was over. This too shows me the indoctrination that some of the military personnel have undergone.

And paying enlistment bonuses is ridiculous. This is in the same manner as employment techniques by bad company's. They offer nice employment bonuses. If a company (or whatever) is worth its weight, it need not have to pay anyone to want to join on with them in their endeavors. This is a defeatist mechanism to lure people. The human psyche is such that a desire of money will draw the weaker ones. So, the government is drawing on the last seeds seeking to fill the diminishing ranks of the military.

I agree with those stating that the current supporters of the administration that they should join up if they are in such aggreement and support of this conflict. Otherwise, stop wanting someone else to do your deed for you!

Tony and Tater,

Didn't mean to strike a nerve or be disrespectful. Just trying to clarify that the military doesn't automatically reject anyone who has had "previous surgeries on your knee" as Tater first suggested. Because, although it's neither a tonsillectomy or hystorectomy (whatever these procedures have to do with anything here), plica band removal is, in fact, knee surgery.

Kel,

No offense taken and sorry if I came off harsh. Really wasn't trying to be.... ;-)

I would like to pose a question to everyone who is saying "go join the military if you support the war". When we were attacked on 9/11 and we decided to go after Bin Laden, were you all saying the same things? Did you all support the invasion of Afganistan? If so, were you volunteering for military service because you supported the war?

You see, what urkes me is that people always say "go join the military if you support the war" when they don't agree with it but when they do agree with it they don't say a word and give praise (and don't question) anyone even THINKING about joining the military. My humble opinion is this, you should support the troops no matter what and your country's cause. Questioning authority is perfectly fine with me; however, the tone and accusations the people are throwing around are not only helping the terrorists' cause but weakening our troops moral and resolve. I would merely like to request that we make sure that we look out for God and country before ourselves and refrain from careless and useless accusations like the ones from Newsweek, ACLU, and Amnesty International.

Everyone is looking for the big scandal...if we'd focus more on the positive and getting through this together, refrain from trying to destroy each other, and lay off the comments that encourage our enemies we would be better off as a country and as a society.

"Otherwise, stop wanting someone else to do your deed for you!"

Darryl, that's exactly what I've been paying them for since the first time the federal government withheld taxes on my income and other sources.

Thank God Hitler, Tojo and Mussolini are all dead and that D-Day happened 61 years ago. I don't see a will to do today what was done then. Remember, too, all who are serving are VOLUNTEERS. They would no doubt appreciate all the name calling and finger pointing going over their service. To most of the above writers, I say "Vive la France."

Kel-

You did not offend me at all. I always enjoy debate.

I was just educating everyone on what a plica was v's what Tater went through. Huge difference.

I am still scared to join the military. Thank God I am a civilian...voluntarilly of course. But I will say, if the war comes on American soil, My fear goes away...and I will pick up my rifle and helmet!

My bumpersticker?

DRAFT YOUNG REPUBLICANS

My liberal friends are in the military, while my conservative friends are in corporate America. I've been wondering why the two 19-year-old sons of the biggest RNC voters I work with are sitting home on their rears while my 19-year-old friend whose Dad lost his job just joined.

Now I know.

Tater, I know you aren't going to believe it but I agree somewhat with your position. First off, I'm impressed you put your ideals where your mouth is. At least you tried. That means a lot.

Secondly, I do not agree with enlisting just because you choose to support Bush. This is America and we still have freedom of speech. No one should have to sacrifice more than others in order to exercise that freedom.

I'm also with you on supporting our troops. I do not support Bush's decision to send them into this ungodly war but our troops are only following boss's orders. I think anyone who posts on these threads feel the same way with regards to supporting our troops.

Where I disagree with you is regarding the effects on troop morale when folks speak out about the Iraqi war. I'd bet at least three-quarters of them had rather be right here in the good old US of A rather than fighting that war. I think they are so busy trying to stay alive they could give a tinker's damn about what some people are discussing over the internet.

Same goes with what our enemies are doing. Do you really think they are guaging their success or failure on what the citizens are saying about Bush? They want him in the WH because he is extremely valuable to them. As someone else said, Bush has done more for their recruiting efforts than any other factor. While their recruiting is up ours' is down.

Bush is also doing what they want done at our expense. Ossama wanted Saadam gone and he did it with very little loss of money or men to him. So there are two goals Bush has helped Ossama achieve.

When Ossama attacked us on 9/11 it was to destroy the US financially. He is mastering that goal also. Our financial backers are growing wary because of the risk we present. We have no way of making good on our debts because of our economy. It's not rocket science to figure out if you are spending hundreds of billions of dollars you don't have and can't borrow it, you are bankrupt, and are therefore in deep do do with your creditors.

Yet you continue to support Bush. Are you one of those just like him that cannot admit you could be wrong about some things. You are simply too smart to be that stupid.

Uhm....Yvonne....let's make sure we don't get personal here. I thought we just discussed that in another thread!

That being said, no I do NOT agree with Bush on everything (mainly the Mexican border, immigration regulation, and a timetable for Iraq) and I have said that repeatedly. I did not agree with Clinton on everything but I never went out on a limb and said he should apologize to the American public. (well maybe when he "got it on" in the Oval Office but I still felt that was more of a personal problem between him and his wife....until he committed perjury but that's a whole different topic)

I just think the downright hateful tone of the "opposition" is going too far and people should think about what they say when they criticize the most powerful man in the world. With great power comes great responsibility and I highly doubt that any of us could make it through one year of Bush's job. I know I couldn't at least....I'd have a friggin' nervous breakown!!!!

Now I could go on and on and ask you to reference how you came up with the numbers of troops who want to be home and present counter arguements to support my side...much like normal...

But instead I choose to say "good day" and "go have a beer" because that's exactly what I plan to do here in about 5 minutes at my trusty pub.

:-)

Tater, Even though it was a backhanded compliment, it was nonetheless a compliment. I know you to be a passionate (no minds in the gutter I hope), articulate, intelligent poster. You and Dan (I miss him this week) are a lot alike (Truth, you are more moderate but all those things too) and I respect and admire the fact you care enough to be passionate about our country. I just knew you were too smart to be dumb, so I asked. Sorry if you took my meaning in the wrong way. Enjoy your beer.

Tater,
I was a Navy recruiter for a number of years. You wanna know the secret?
DON'T DIVULDGE ANY NEGATIVE MEDICAL INFO ABOUT YOURSELF!
There's no medical database for recruiters to look up your history, so if you don't tell them, they will not know.
I helped some young mena nd women get in yes, by not telling the whole truth. But when a patriotic person wanted to join up, I did everything I could do for them. (as long as they had no current problems)
It's really that simple.

"This may be inspiring to some, however, to me, it is senseless. This is unheard of before in our history. Regardless of whether or not a solider wanted to return to combat, with an injury like this, military service was over. This too shows me the indoctrination that some of the military personnel have undergone"

Sorry, but the former CSM of the 82nd Airborne continued to serve and JUMP with a prothesis. Another memeber of the 82nd continued to qualify for jump status with dual prothesis and both retired after long and benefical service. This was not indoctrination by the military but a willingness to serve that many of us decided on with out anyone "indoctrinating us". There have been others who decided to serve after being severely wounded and even loosing legs. Be grateful that they decided to serve to defend your right even to be wrong.

Brian Harper,

What you did sounds illegal. Unethical at best. Getting people in who don't meet the qualifications for military service endangers that soldier, their fellow soldiers and all American lives.

It's really that simple?

No truth , it is not that simple. It may be simple to get by an unethicial recruiter such as Brian but then you have to get past the Drs. at the AFES. If you make it past them, which is doubtfull then you have the DRs at your basic training facility to get past again and again. Believe me they ask about every scar on your body that they can see and then some that they can't see. I had to go through explaining scars on each enlistment even though it was in the record. As far as not telling anything about your medical history , that too will catch up with you in most cases. To enlist having a known disability that would endanger yourself and others is cause for dismissal from the military and it can be under conditions other than honorable.
Brian likes to run off how he got folks in or saved them from getting in and other BS. Guess they didn't have an AI that was on the ball or he would have been out on his ear in a heart beat, no matter what his numbers looked like. They certainly would have been suspect.
Oh, truth, I am a former recruiter and also an administrative inspector for a recruiting group so I ain't just talking bs.

mr p,

your version sounds more like the 'truth' to me.

Mr Produce,
What I did I don't consider to be unethical. When someone had an issue as a child and has no problems at present, why not help that person get in? Especially if that person played high school basketball and football.

As a former recruiter, you should know the doctors at MEPS got paid the same amount if they did a full phys or dq'ed them right off. You think I talk bs huh? Well, I could care less what you think of me because I am happy that I helped healthy people get in. And by the way, my bosses knew what I did. Many, many times, my zone supervisor was in the office when I briefed the applicants with minor past problems to not tell the doctors. It was part of the business. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't allow obvious detrimental problems to pass.

It's funny how back then I busted my butt to help young men and women get in and now I try my best to discourage them from joining Bush's slave military.

If they are anything like you, the military doesn't need them anyway. The last thing we need is a dishonest traitor during war time.

You're wrong about that one, Joe. Brian is an honest traitor, a dishonest soldier. :)

LOL, I believe the military DOES need them. Take a look at the Army's recruiting shortfalls. I'm sure there are many a Army recruiter bending rules right now. Heck, they did when I recruited.
just joe, what knowledge of this issue do you bring to the table? Any experience dealing with these issues? Or are you just emotionally upset that I helped good people get into the service? I say if you have no experience with it, then you really have no place to criticize. Except for maybe ignorant criticism.

Chuck, I think you have i right!

Bravo, Chuck, I think you are right on but I'd go a step further,I say that every Southern Preacher who encouraged their congragation, to vote for Mr.Bush because he was the moral choice, should now hold PATRIOT SUNDAY, and tell all able 18 to 30 year olds to run to the recruiting office. Join up! put life into there vote!

Lets not forget the Clerics, 'on the other side' have people so decicated to the cause there willing to become suicide bomers. Why then aren't good Christan Republicans willing to do the same?

Perhaps they can have Mr.Rumsfield himself address the crowds, via video tape, just like Bill Frisk did when the churches addressed the Judge issue.

Peggy Gilroy