Ya know - my sense is that even with a a Bible, a Quran, or the Sacred Brick, the integrity of America has been lost. We have Oli North bragging that he "lied to congress" - because he was given immunity (I guess legal immunity negat's one's personal integrity - my dad would have whopped my butt). We have countless government witnesses stating "Not That I Can Recall" ... OK - I'm stuck in the '80's, but don't forget Cappaquidic (spelling), or "It depends what the meaning is IS, ...", and Swift-Boat lies ... plus more contemporary examples like ....

Bernard Ebbers?
Ken Lay?
The Run-Away Bride?
(Add your favorite here _______.)
How about WMD's vs. Bucks for Halliburton ... Hot off the press (Direct From Oil Town USA):
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3243627
"Pentagon auditors have challenged nearly $1.5 billion worth of Halliburton Co.'s bills to the U.S. military"

No, the problem is much deeper than the Bible, the Quran, the Sacred Brick, or Harry Potter's latest Adventure.

Seems the "truth" depends on any number of circumstances and swearing on the Bible is no more of a guarentee of truth than whistling in the wind. Someone who is going to tell the truth will do so as a matter of integrity and those who will lie are going to do so because they are lacking in integrity and morality, imho.

I'm with the ones who say get rid of all semblence of religion in the court room.

Praying or swearing to Allah is the same as doing the same to a brick. He simply doesn't exist.

I doubt many will admit it, but just because a bunch of pissed-off, robed fanatics choose to manifest this "god" via paradigm does not mean he/she/it is "up there" duking it out with Jesus for supremacy. Amen.

Careful Steve, those robed fanatics might issue a fatwah against you and perhaps a jihad will break out in your front yard for defaming them.

Allah exists as much as YHWH, Odin and The Easter Bunny. All praise is due the IPU (phuhsh!)

http://www.palmyra.demon.co.uk/humour/ipu.htm

What would atheists swear on? Darwin's "Origin of Species"? The "Humanist Manifesto"? Or maybe themselves, since they don't believe in a higher power?

What about Hindus? Would they swear by the over 300 millions (and counting) gods that they believe in?

Should every courtroom keep every type of scripture or book available for whatever the person belief system is?

For that matter, why should the court by allowed to impose its moral beliefs about lying on me?

Many people who hold pluralistics beliefs and attitudes have not thought through where the beliefs can take us or the difficulty in trying to keep everyone happy and unoffended.

"For that matter, why should the court by allowed to impose its moral beliefs about lying on me?"

This is an interesting question. Courts should only be in the business of gathering objective evidence regarding each case before it, then applying the laws in a manner dictated by logic. When you look at it this way, the demand for honest testimony makes sense, as does the sanctions imposed for those committing perjury. It's not so much a "moral belief" as a necessity arising from its very nature.

Why do you all hate religion so much? Makes no sense to me....

Good point Ecuman. I find it interesting that before 9/11 we never heard of all "Quran rights" stuff. 9/11 was the result of people who believed the Quran justified what they did. Afterward, we have bent over backwards to accomodate Muslims and not to "offend" them in any way.

I believe as the law exists, if a person doesn't want to swear on the Bible, they have the option just to swear to tell the truth. Yvonne's suggestion that we take out any religious texts has merit, but I don't want us to surrender our heritage just to please people who do not originate from it. Leave the Bible with the option not to swear on it makes sense or we will end up with a library of religious texts like Ecuman states.

Oh my God! There's an airliner heading straight for my hou

Tater, why do you insist on bringing "hate" into every conversation? Are you some sort of strawman generator or something? Or do you have trouble parsing sentences of English?

What gives you the impression that anyone (let alone everyone) in this thread has a hatred of religion?

Dan and ECUMan have struck the right cord on the insane abudance of "holy" books it would take to please every religion. (Let's not forget the Necrenomicon for satanists.) That's why plenty of judges just have you "swear or affirm" to tell the truth without the use of a book.

Of course, as JDR and Yvonne aptly stated, it really doesn't do any good if the person is going to lie anyway. JDR really hits the point of a nation of liars. I trust about a tenth of a percent of what people in the public eye are saying today.

As a side note, since JDR opened it up, I figured out the whole runaway bride thing. It's a total scam to pay for the six hundred guest wedding. The entire family was in on it. With the book deal and interview fees, her little "fine" will be covered and still have a substantial amount left to throw a bash.

Tater, I will answer for myself since I'm included in the "you all". I have a very fulfilling relationship with God and try to live a life that glorifies His name. I fail at times but I know I am forgiven and am loved regardless of my humaness. All I have to do is ask.

However, I respect not everyone believes in the same God I do or any god at all. They are free to do this. I see no point in imposing my religious beliefs on others. Should they show an interest and wish to discuss it, I'm always ready to wittness for the Lord. But I'm not going to force anyone to subscribe to my belief system. And I do not need other people agreeing with me to validate my belief in God.

Yvonne, cheers to you! I wish there were a lot more folks like you on your side of the theism divide.

Who cares? It dosen't matter what someone swears the oath on, if they are going to lie in a court of law, they are going to lie to a balif no matter what he has in his hand. This is a non issue.

Eric, sorry to go off-topic, but what do you do to get bolding? I'd like to have that ability, and italics, too.

Thanks.

BTW, you can reply to my email, if you prefer.

Never mind. I think figured it out. No underline, though.

Dough, it was JESUS! Hal-le-lew-ya! You can do it now! ;)

"Praying or swearing to Allah is the same as doing the same to a brick. He simply doesn't exist."

It's totally irrelevant whether he exists -- a more relevant point is whether the person taking the oath believes him to exist.

In our courts you have the option of swearing on a Christian bible or affirming by raising your hand.
Very simple, we need no other options.

Amen, Anthony. Now I'll be passing the plate for offerings. Send them by email. Thank you, one and all.

Eric,

It's somewhat funny to me that you say I bring "hate" into every conversation yet you take the most radical approaches, have ridiculous and sarcastic remarks, and try your best to bash everyone into submission....yet me simply asking why you all "hate" religion is me being instigative.

How about this, why do you all DISLIKE religion? What is so scary about it that you, along with others, must get up in arms any time someone even mentions the sheer prospect of it being in a public arena?

I fear I don't understand nor I doubt I ever will.

There is that appeasing to you? I'd HATE to offend anyone by asking a simple and straight forward question....maybe it's just the "conservative" in me.

P.S. Yvonne, I could argue your point and ask your affiliation....but I won't. I respect you opinion, even though I disagree, and say to each their own.

Lilly, it was the Invisible Pink Unicorn!

Eric's mother was a jackal. bah-room gitchee-goom!

Tater says:
"How about this, why do you all DISLIKE religion? What is so scary about it that you, along with others, must get up in arms any time someone even mentions the sheer prospect of it being in a public arena?"

Okay... since we're backing off on the inflammatories, it will be less emotionally charged to discuss with you. I'm not "offended" by emotional exchanges, but I prefer to avoid them because people get less accomplished when they get started in them.

To begin seriously, I have no issues with ayone expressing their religious beliefs in public. So we can dispense with the idea that I object to religion "being in a public arena." That is not the issue, at least for me. You want to put a religious bumper sticker on your car, or go out to Fun Fourth and preach on a street corner, that's cool. That's what I always thought made America a great place to live.

And you may find this hard to believe, but I don't even "hate" Christianity. I join my wife at her church every Saturday night... I just don't participate in the communion or prayers.

What I specifically object to is when the government supports a religion. I agree with the founders of America that valid governmental functions do not include promoting any religion, either actively or passively.

I know that my view on this is a lot harder than many folks, but there are plenty of folks, even a fair number of Christians, who agree with me to some degree. Not many would agree that using Bibles in court for the "swearing in" of witnesses and jurors constitutes passive endorsement of Christianity, but that's how I see it.

Regarding any efforts to "bash everyone into submission"... I usually prefer to discuss things in a civil manner, but if I get pushed (as Trish often says), my first response is to push back.

Take it easy and I honestly look forward to hearing your thoughts. No pushing or bashing is necessary, eh?

Eric's babysitter was Anton Levay, they built tinker-toy mangers and set off firecrackers under the crib.

The invisible pink unicorn. LMAO.
That reminds me, I lost my invisible chickens somewhere quite a while ago. There is a huge reward offered for their safe return.

One of my favorite bumper stickers reads:

REWARD: Schrodinger's Cat, $10,000
Wanted dead and alive.

Lilly,

I've got your chickens. Bring the money and leave it at the back door to Yum Yums. Once I have the money, you'll get your chickens. (evil snicker).

ok "truth" how much?
I will leave the money at the back door of yum yums. :)
*doing happy dance*

How about this:

You must be a Card Carrying Christian to retain your American citizenship. That will lower our taxes by requiring only One Good Book to be purchased for every courthouse.

Wonder if Ann Dickinson is working just as hard to have the Bible introduced into the court system of Muslim countries? Perhaps she can give us a report as to how that part of the project is going.

Will the defendant please rise?

No, he's saying his morning prayer to mecca right now.

Would the use of a Quran be affirming Sharia law or the U.S. constitution?