Canada also legalized Euthenasia for humans. I would suggest that if you are gay and want to get married or you want to off your sick husband, move to Canada.

Those of us who have more traditional values will be happy to see you go.

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Yessssss! My plan is working perfectly. First, Canadians will offer gay marriages. Then all the gays run to Canada. It will become the new Sodom! Tourism will swell and Canada will become a national power!! They will take over America. Then all of you will have to call ham, bacon. Then you will say "heh" after every sentence. Then you will care about the NHL lockout! Then Celine Dion will be your queen!!! You will have to listen to her sing that Titanic song nightly. It will drive you all to civil unrest and war will occur between neighbors because they can't take it anymore. It such a purely evil plan it scares even me!!!

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ROFLMAO!!!!

The Canadian Parliment voted for Gay marraige despite the fact the vast majority (almost 70%)of Canadians are against it. It is rather funny that Canadian politicians allow themselves to be bullied by extremists.

Gay men and women enjoy all the rights everyone does. Legal marraige is unique to heterosexual couples, as it should be. Heterosexual couples are virtually responsible for all procreation.

I will not condone harmful or even disrespectful behavior towards any persons based on their sexual orientation. However, the political effort to legalize gay marraige and legitimize any homosexual rights without question is wrong.

Almost 80% of US citizens are against Gay marraige. It is not because of fear or hatred either. Scientific evidence has always led to homosexuality as a choice, despite desparate theories to prove otherwise.

The key questions in this debate should be: What is the definition of marriage and how do we arrive at that definition? How do those on this board answer these questions?

Good question, ECUMAN. Related to it is the distinction between a religious-sanctioned union and a legally-sanctioned one. It sounds like our friends up north have sanctioned the latter.

Those that don't think we should define marriage in a religious context, how do you arrive at a definition of marriage?

Currently the legal definition is the same as the religious one. The question is why change. Canada's leaders voted against the will of the people. It will never fly here unless the courts make up a law.

Ecuman,

I think there are two definitions. One is a civil union, and the other is marriage.

But, this again brings up this point:

I was married by a guilford county magistrate. My wife and I consider ourselves married. Does this mean I am married in the eyes of the Almighty?

Depends if you are nice to your wife Jim and take out the garbage on time.

In an attempt to answer your question ECUMAN, I'd say marriage is a commitment between two people to live together and love each other. That's pretty simple, but I've got too much work to do to be able to go deeper now.

"Depends if you are nice to your wife Jim and take out the garbage on time. "

That was too funny!

Now, seriously, Jim, is your wife a man or a woman?

Dough "I'd say marriage is a commitment between two people to live together and love each other"

Why not 3 or 4 Dough? How bout if my cousin & I live together and love each other? By your definition that's marriage.

Gay marriage advocates dismiss this argument as ridiculous, but once you change the definition, others will want it changed to suit their needs. That is a fact.

Perfect example: Look at page B1 in todays paper. A group wanted the Quran to be used when swearing the oath in court. Now there is a group "asking that texts from all world religions be allowed for courtroom oaths."

I believe gays should have the same legal rights as other couples, but the word marriage be left to one man/one woman.

I just don't understand why we can't end this whole debate by getting the government out of marriage completely. It's such a simple solution.

Hallelujah Paul!!

Sounds like a great idea Paul, but reality is the govt. gets more & more into our lives, not less.

It's kind of hard to get them out of it, Paul, when you have lobbyists, activists, etc. all screaming at them for "equal rights" even though they technically do have equal rights. In my opinion, the whole "gay marriage" issue is nothing more then a political football that is being used to rally the party bases. (and that goes for both sides) That being said, the government does have a vested interest in all of this since they have to determine tax brackets, who beqeathed what to whom, etc., etc., etc...... Therefore, they kind of have to keep their nose in it for various reasons, but also because the lovely courts seem to be trying to circumvent the legislative branches and create their own "laws/rules" by declaring certain things unconstituational.

We all know that it will never fly here because every little politician knows that if they vote to pass a law legalizing it they will instantly lose their job AND it will open up a whole can of worms that the country, as a whole, is not ready to deal with. (Ex. Polygamy. Legal or not?) Gays aren't being told they can't love someone, be with a person, beqeath things to them, vote, get a job, own land, etc. so I can't compare any of this to the African Americans in the 60's or women's suffrage. This is nothing more then people who know that they are out of the norm trying to force their way of life on people....and I resent that.

I have met and know several gay friends and I would say half of them don't believe that it should be legalized. Ironic huh? A gay saying that don't think that it is necessary. They actually say that they are having a more difficult time now because people get so ill talking about the subject that it causes them to be ridiculued even though they don't even really support it!

Anyways, that's about all I have to say. ;-)

Dan, I agree, it is my definition. That was what ECUMAN had asked us for.

Maybe I am a gay marriage advocate. If you want to marry a cousin, or if 3-4 people want to, it's no skin off my nose.

Maybe mr. libertarian Paul is on to something. Instead of one narrow legal definition, or a thousand diverse ones, have none! The problem that comes to mind with that is how does the IRS handle it? It'd have to redefine it's exemptions or something.

A person's immediate society will certainly have a reaction to a socially unacceptable arrangement, but why bring in the law?

ecuman, yes- you are married in the eyes of God! It is intersting because in the bible, marraiges of gentiles, jews and others is recognized by God. Abrahm and Sarai hid their marraige in foreign lands and were exposed. One of the Ten Commandments says "You shall not covet another man's wife" without reference to religion.

And, of course, biblically the marraige union has strong ties with sexual and spiritual union. It also is an illustration of God's commitment to us. Christ is the groom. And no matter unfaithful the bride, Christ remains faithful. Communion is a form of intercourse between Christ and the Church.

So Chip, I've had sex with Jesus?

Didn't even know I was gay.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one that thought that was creepy.

Chip says:"it will never fly here unless the courts make up the law". You have just defined "activist judges".

Again, I'm glad I left NC. I'm gay and, fortunately, my state is somewhat enlightened and we may yet have same-sex marriage. To infer that opening up marriage to gays can lead to incest, polygamy, etc is insulting. Most incestious relationships I know of as well as most polygamy is a 'breeder thing'.

Come one folks. I'm a born again Christian, and I'm about to marry....a woman. I believe that a marriage is when you profess to God, Family, and friends your undying love for another. Let God judge if it is right. While I don't believe it is, I accept that every one deserves equal rights. Let them marry, let them make decisions as a couple, how does this hurt us???? What is the fear? Heck they can't even procreate! This country is NOT founded on the idea's of taking rights away from anyone! The day our Government takes rights away from people who have done no wrong is the day we start the slide down the slippery slope.

Let me clarify my original question. Do we define marriage by describing something that already exists (that it's part of the "furniture of the universe") or can we define marriage anyway we want to?

I think there are basically 2 motives for gay marriage advocates.

1) Money. (As in the right to put your gay spouse on your health insurance, etc)

2) Acceptance. If it is legally accepted, then those who disagree with the lifestyle will be forced to accept it by the government.

Because whether or not you are gay or straight, love isn't something that has to be defined.

I didn't ask for a definition of love. I asked for a definition of marriage.

One test as to the "universality" of something is to ask "can you imagine a parallel universe where this could exist." For example, gravity. In some other universe, it'd still exist. Love, too. But marriage? I could easily imagine a universe where marriage was defined VERY differently.

I get so sick of people using the word "lifestyle". Being gay is not a lifestyle as though it's something people choose.

brian,
your post confuses me and seems to conflict with the written Word. you stated you are born again (praise God for brian)but you also state that
"The day our Government takes rights away from people who have done no wrong........ ", perhaps it is not our governments(perhaps it is, after all governmemts were put in place by God) place to legislate over gays (sodomites), but it certainly is in our charge as Christians to recognize that a sodomites sexual preference is not ordained or pleasing to God. can we still love and minister to sodomites, certainly for that is exactly what Jesus would have done. we as Christians should not turn a deaf ear or blind eye to this sin, but we should confront it when called for and minister to that individual in love. there is only one judge and it is not me ! thanks for the opportunity to share .

Tony- Being gay is absolutely a choice. No one forces you to have sex with men. And I do not think Gay men are any more likely to be abusers than heterosexual men. I do beleive a larger percentage of Gay men and women have been victims of sexual abuse.

Truth nailed it- Gay marraige is about money and acceptance. There is no question Gay men & women have been mistreated and abused by the heterosexual community. Such treatment is wrong.

It is also true that the Gay male community has been extremely reckless and self destructive in many forms.

I am a beleiver in Christ. I beleive any sex outside of marraige is dangerous and separates a person from God. I also beleive Christ died for the forgiveness of such acts.

Brian-its true. Google it.

Chip, people I've talked to that were gay, including friends, tell me unequivocably that it isn't a choice for them. That, however, may be a discussion for another thread.

I agree that gays are no more likely to be abusers, too.

Brian said: "The day our Government takes rights away from people who have done no wrong is the day we start the slide down the slippery slope."

Brian, I have to ask you what rights are being taken away from a homosexual person? The reason I ask is they have the same rights as I do. I can marry a member of the opposite sex and so can they. I cann't marry a memeber of the same sex and neither can they. So what right is being taken away?

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Don't worry about Brian!! He is not worthy of the republican party!!! I am worried that you have considered marrying another woman!!! Might I suggest you consider Jackie Keyes for a mate??!!! Oh what a wonderful menage we would have!!!!! Yes!!! Yes!!! Satan is real happy now!!!!

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I have decided to label myself as gayTony instead of regular Tony because I wanted to differentiate myself from the other Tony on the blog. After reading the posts, I am not sure this will work. So remember, I am 'gay married to a woman Tony'!

Chip said:
"Tony- Being gay is absolutely a choice. No one forces you to have sex with men. And I do not think Gay men are any more likely to be abusers than heterosexual men. I do beleive a larger percentage of Gay men and women have been victims of sexual abuse."

No one forces you Chip to have sex with a woman. So you chose to have sex with a woman. Right? Or did you have the attraction to women at a very young age??? I was attracted to men at a very young age. I did make the initial choice to have sex with a man...nobody forced me. Just as I am sure nobody FORCED you Chip.

To say that homosexuals should not be given equal rights does just not fly.

"We hold these truths to be self evident that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights...that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

That is the preamble to the constitution of the United Staes of America. That is why you cannot legally outlaw gay marrigae. Because it is a form of discrimination.

For God's sake people, it isn't like gays are asking for SPECIAL rights...which I don't support. They are asking for EQUAL rights. Thats all!

Sorry for the delay in repsponding. My wife and kids and I were all on vacation and I missed some days on the blog!

Geesh! Go on vacation and miss a heated discussion. That will never happen again!

Soooo Chip. Lemme guess. Jesus told you that gay people make a choice to be gsy. Funny, he told me I was he made me and that I'm just perfect in his eyes. You are one sick b******.

gaytony,
i can in no way get inside your head to know if you are gay by choice or by other means, i just can't speak for YOU. you bring up the preamble (unsure if what you cite is the preamble) to the constitution as proof to support your viewpoint. i've read the same words and find something completely different, i see it cititng that the creator (God) endowing (i.e. " to provide with something freely or naturally") men with certain rights that can't be surrendered. so if i say it this way...God has provided me with something natural and freely, which i cannot surrender. let me here cite what God feels about homosexuality....
Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. so this 'endowing' that God provides His people with, are to be natural and not surrendered and not aberrant. so the same words you cite as support ..i see as condemnation (there is a cure, He is Jesus). what are your thoughts. i truly hope i don't get called one sick b****** like you called chip, for sharing my thoughts.

Tony, If scientists discovered a gay-bashing gene, would that behavior then be acceptable and should those people be encouraged to behave in that manner?

ECUMAN, If scientists discovered a straight-bashing gene, would that behavior then be acceptable and should those people be encouraged to behave in that manner?

Whether or not being gay is a choice I guess depends on what you consider 'being gay'. If you consider 'being gay' to mean being attracted to people of the same sex, then maybe you don't have a choice. Because there is always temptation. If you consider 'being gay' to mean actually having sex with men, then you do have a choice.

I don't consider myself to be an adulterer because I'm attracted to a woman who isn't my wife. But that is MY definition, not necessarily yours.

The fact is, it sounds like the definition that Tony is using for 'being gay' isn't the same as the definition that Chip is using.

Yvonne, my point is that just because a characteristic is genetically coded (I don't think the evidence for a "gay gene" has been established, I'm merely conceding the point for now for the sake of argument.) doesn't mean the behavior is morally acceptable or beneficial to the individual, any participants or society as a whole.

Buz,

I didn't call anyone a sick b******. That was the other Tony. I never disrespect anyone by calling them names. That is not my style. I do however, debate my views openly and fairly. I have done so with Tater and Truth in the past.

You refernce the bible in your response to me. I can only say in argument, that the bible taken word for word is YOUR interpretation. I see it differently. I know that I recognized myself as different as early as age 9 or 10. I don't remember ever being abused by anyone. I feel I was born homosexual. Just as you feel you were born heterosexual. To use your religion as a crutch to influence someone else's belief, imo, is wrong. I used a part of the preamble of the constitution as reference...to prove that even though our founding fathers probably never anticipated gay marriage, they knew that equal rights was important. Again, gays don't want special rights. I don't want special rights! This country was founded on the principle that ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. If you disallow gay people the same rigts as straight people, what does that say? That being gay makes you a second class citizen??? That seems fair to me...NOT!

As for you being born straight, me being born gay---I can't walk in your shoes, and you can't walk in mine. I believe many factors may help to determine sexuality...from hetero to homo and everything in between. Lets face it...I am a gay man, married to a straight woman. We have 3 kids. I made the decision to live a straight life and be monogamous with my wife. I chose not to have sex with other men. But in my soul, the soul that God created for me, I am gay. Just as God made you straight.

And lets look at gay marriage. I am not asking you to go out and marry a man. Why does it matter to you that gays want to marry? Lets just say for the sake of arguement, that homosexulaity is wrong. You won't be the one being judged for it on judgment day. I will...so why does it matter to the straight community anyway?????

gaytony,
sorry i thought gaytony/tony were one in the same.

thank you for your very informative response. you revealed much about yourself that i was unaware of. though not worth much, i commend you on NOT acting upon your sexual desires. i believe that speaks volumes of your integrity. i am truly sorry that you believe i am using my 'religion' (i hate that word) as a crutch, i would much prefer you to see it in me as compassion and love, but you don't know me. please reread my posts and i believe you will find no persoanl attacks on gays (sodomites)or find me stating i am against gays fighting for their perceived rights. i do believe you will find me sharing my understanding of the written word of God. i once placed my job ( of 20 yrs.) in jeopardy b/c i refused to attend a class on homophobia. i do not judge or fear you. one of my closet coworkers was gay, she and i shared some very enlightening times together. gaytony who is straight certainly is an oxymoron, congrats ! be happy.

Greetings to all,

"GayTony" is correct when he says that we have had civilized discussions in the past about this subject; however, in the end we agreed to disagree.

As I have said in previous posts, I think homosexuality is a chosen lifestyle. Tony and I have had several conversations about whether or not it is genetic or a learned trait and I am a person that believes that it is learned/chosen. He, obviously, is the opposite. Being a heterosexual man that thoroughly enjoys women and all that they have to offer, I can't say that I have walked in his shoes; however, I have seen both sides and feel as though I have come to an educated opinion...not just a 'thought' or how I 'feel'. I have seen several people (some very close friends) come out and say that they have been gay for a long time and on the other hand, some people say they felt that way after several years of being in a heterosexual relationship and just decided they preferred the same sex. (not to mention the fact that some get coerced into 'trying it out' and get sucked into it even though they are hetero at heart, hence they say they are bi)

Either way....it just doesn't make much sense to me and by no means does it make any sense to mother nature. Gays cannot prouce offspring; therefore, in my opinion being gay is not a natural thing. I won't even go into a Biblical arguement because everyone interprets the Bible differently, but I do know that Buz was correct when he posted his quotes from Romans. Take it how you want.......

In my opinion, Truth nailed my thoughts about why the gay community is up in arms about the 'gay marriage' issue. The main reasons are:

1) Money. Gays want to save money by being able to add 'partners' to insurance policies, etc.

2) Acceptance. If it is legally accepted, then those who disagree with the lifestyle will be forced to accept it by the government.

Whether or not you are gay or straight, love isn't something that has to be defined. Some hetero couples live together for years and never get married (something I don't necessarily agree with) so why should make an exception for something that is clearly so out of the norm, controversial, and going against, pretty much, every tradition and value that we have in our society when it comes to marriage.

Tater said that some heterosexuals "get sucked into" being gay.

I'm sorry but that's the funniest thing I've read all day.

:)

gaytony and Tony, i've enjoyed our conversations but I wish you guys would discuss other issues more. i personally find both of you to be thoughtful, intelligent people and I enjoy reading your opinions on issues other than the whether it is a choice thing.

gaytony,

I have to admit that I can't see why you stay married to a woman if you feel you really are gay. i know it is your life and i can remember you talking about it before, but it seems kind of a sad existence. i mean, for you and your wife. my questions would be:

1) why would your wife settle for someone that wasn't 100% into her.
2) are you happy?

I guess the answer to the second question is the most important for your time here on earth.

i'm not trying to degrade or insult, just discuss.

you probably won't read this anyway cause nobody reads stuff over the weekend. but if you do, have a great weekend and i'll be checking the archives on monday!

T

Well, this has been the most heated blog I have posted to for a while. I do try to post to other subjects besides just the gay issue. It's just that when something you feel so strongly about is discussed, it is hard NOT to get involved. I also like debating why I feel we need to keep our troops in Iraq, why NC needs a lottery, the Red Cross and giving blood. It is just that the homosexual subject hits way too close to home.

Buzz- Forgive me for calling your reference to religion a crutch. I have struggled with religion a lot over the last few years, and am just now getting back to the point where I talk to God. I have been mad at him for a while. I understand that the bible says to preach the gospel. I just think that by doing so, one has to be carefule not to alienate those very people they are trying to protect.

Tater- You are probably right about your two reasons why gays want marriage. I can't speak for my entire sub-culture, and I am sure they wouldn't want me as a spokesperson. But imo, it is about fairness. My company already offers same sex partner benefits, so cost (other than the tax credit) isn't a factor. I believe Paul is right. When it comes to marriage, the courts will have to rule 1 of 2 ways. Either allow gay marriage to protect equal rights, or take government completely out of marriage.

Truth,

You asked:
"1) why would your wife settle for someone that wasn't 100% into her.
2) are you happy?"

1) I don't know that my wife feels she settled. I mean, I am a very devoted husband, I don't cheat, I don't lie...and I am 100% into her. Just because my sexual attractions lie elsewhere, our love is strong enough that we are able to enjoy a very satisfying sex life.

2) I am happy. I mean, hell. I married my best friend. She knows me better than I know myself sometimes. Not many people find that type of love. I am lucky. So it happened with a woman...not what I was expecting, but you can't help who you fall in love with.

I haven't been posting as much on the blog lately because work has been a bear. But I am going to try to make an effort to post more regularly on all topics. Because I have lots of opinions. And my wife likes that I take all my frustrations out here, rather than her having to listen to all of my jaded opinions all of the time.

Dude, I don't think I have to tell you that I, being a heterosexual, find it odd that you have a wife but profess to be gay. How in the world do you explain that to your kids?

Only my 14 year old knows, and we just explain that I am bi sexual. It's just easier that way. My 11 year old and 9 year old aren't quite mature enough to understand.