"Where can I sign up to show my support for Cindy Sheehan? I, too, would like to disrespect the graves of America's fallen warriors."

Please spare us. I have not heard or seen anyone showing a bit of disrespect toward any member of America's armed forces, living or dead. That propaganda is too tired to bother with any longer.

"I guess freedom is solely the right of the American people, and to hell with the rest of the world. Shame on our sons and daughters for trying to help the helpless and oppressed."

So this person apparently thinks that it's our responsibility to fight wars for the helpless? Guess what? There are "helpless and oppressed" people all around the world, not just in the places that are floating on an ocean of oil. Why aren't we fighting to help the oppressed people in Darfur or Palestine? I hear the people of China are oppressed... why aren't we fighting to free them?

If helpless and oppressed people want freedom and help, they should do their own fighting, the way our nation did. In the meantime, let's drop the pretense that we're in Iraq for any noble purpose, eh? America has acted in simple self-interest, both in Afghanistan and Iraq.

"Always remember, America would still be an English colony were it not for sons of other countries coming to help liberate us from tyranny."

You don't know that. England divested itself of colonies when it was no longer able to fully control them, and they lost interest in being a world power.

So why didn't we go to aid the uprising of Shiites that started when Bush the Elder urged it? If we were simply a noble nation, intent only to bring about the end of tyrrany, we would have gone to supply aid and fight for freedom in 1991. We were asked, you know. My guess is that we wanted to wait until the chance arrived where we could more readily control the shaping of the government. Some freedom fighters we are!

I second Eric's comments, and have been wondering how discontents in General Custer's army were threated -- oh wait, I already know:

http://www.hanksville.org/daniel/misc/Custer.html

"In 1867 he was brought up on charges of abandoning his command (to visit his wife) and having (other) deserters shot on the spot, sans hearing. He was convicted, on both counts, and sentenced to a year's suspension from rank and pay, including forfeiture of salary."

On to Little Big Horn!!!

Excellent strawman though.

To quote Janis Joplin "Freedom is just another word, for nothing left to lose".

Went to Iraq to fight for their freedom just like we fought WWII to fight for Germany & Japans freedom. It had nothing to do with it. This only became about Iraqi freedom when we ran out of other justifications. Calling it a fight for freedom is an effort to make sense of the senseless.

The latest analysis from the admistration is that our efforts are going to cause an Islamic Republic so perhaps we should say that we're fighting and dying for their right to have an Islamic Republic.

Doesn't quite have the same ring though.

"Our Sons and Daughters fighting in Iraq?"

Our fighting forces in Iraq are NOT CHILDREN!

Our fighting forces in Iraq are thinking adults who 'made a decision to join the Armed Forces to
defend our country.' This is contrary to Yvonne,
who feels that our 'Children' enlisted in the armed forces, for reasons other than defending our country.

As for my children, defending our country, two are adults, and my two young ones are 5 and 9, and though that's plenty old enough to sign up for the jihad and toddle into a Israeli pizza parlour wearing a suicide-bomb, in most advanced societies (excluding the Muslim)' armed forces, they prefer to use grown-ups.

This seems to be difficult for the Left to grasp.
Ever since America's, all-adult, all-volunteer army went into Iraq, the anti-war crowd have made a sustained effort to characterize them as 'children.' If a 13-year-old wants to have an abortion, that's her decision and her parents shouldn't get notified. If a 21-year-old wants to drop the Oval Orifice 'Karastan' and snack on Bill Clinton, she's a grown woman and free to do what she wants. But, God (or should I say, ACLU)
forbid, if a 22 or 25 or 37-year-old is serving his country overseas, he's a wee 'child' who isn't really old enough to know what he's doing.
For those that agree with Cindy, this war doesn't serve a 'noble' pupose, thankfully the rest of the Sheehan family seem to use a different part of their brain (the Right-side, off course).

"The Sheehan family lost our beloved Casey in the Iraq war and we have been SILENTLY, respectfully grieving. We do not agree with the political motivations and publicity tactics of Cindy Sheehan. She now appears to be promoting her own personal agenda and notoriety at the expense of her son's good name and reputation. The rest of the Sheehan family supports the troops, our country, and our President, silently, with prayer and respect."

Although this viewpoint is in opposition to Yvonne and her fellow co-horts, it is clear that Casey Sheehan did not live in, or was a product of, Cindy Sheehan's "Nightmare."

And I wonder, had Casey Sheehan lived to have a child who became involved in a similar military conflict, would he have done as his mother? This is speculation and we will NEVER know. It is a question for thought.

I wonder how many WWII fathers felt this way about their sons who were sent to Vietnam? I know that there are some!

How has Cindy Sheehan's peaceful protest shown disrespect for the fallen soldiers of US military conflict. Protest is a part of America, it always has be and hopefully, always will be! When we lose the right to protest, we will cease to be a republic!

I agree with Eric on fighting for the helpless and oppressed. How about coming back to our own soil and fighting for the helpless and oppressed laid off workers? That would be a VERY noble cause! I say this even though I am pacifist and oppose ALL war. Then again, battles do not necessarily have to involve violence.

And who is to say that Cindy Sheehan does not honor her son's courage and sacriface. She only desires to know if his death was in vain. I too join her in that quest.

Jason, Would you be so kind as to tell me why you think it is your responsibility to tell others what I do and do not think? What possible purpose could that serve? And why would you be so presumptuous as to assume you know what I think and feel?

I made the comment that people sign up for the military for reasons other than any feeling of loyalty to our country. That, Jason, is a fact whether you want to accept it or not. Only a truly misguided person would assume that every American child/kid/adult who volunteers for military service does so to fight for our freedoms.

But if you think me wrong, prove it with facts, not opinion. I know you can't because you have not idea why a person joins unless they tell you.

Please, if you feel you cannot make a statement to stand on its own merit, without trying to discredit someone else, perhaps you should not make it at all. You only make yourself look bad, IMO.

I find it ironic that the letter-writer refers to our war of independance with England. In that war WE fought for OUR independence. No one came over here and fought it for us (I know, we had some help from France).

I have to wonder if freedom would be more valuable to the Iraqis if they had won it for themselves, as opposed to having it (sort-of) handed to them.

As this discussion has gone in so many directions, there is still Brian's central question. Is Cindy Sheehan disrespecting the sacrifice her son made? I think the answer is YES. This has certainly been asserted by the rest of her family. Her son didn't just enlist in the marines, he reenlisted knowing full well he would be going back to Iraq. To me, this is a sign of someone who believed in what we are doing is right.

Cindy Sheehan began disrespecting her son's sacrifice the second she aligned herself with the radical left in the form of MoveOn.org and Micheal Moore. She does not need a website and a PR firm to honor her son. Furthermore, some of the statements she has made on her blog have been totally over the top.

- America is not a country worth dying for

- We are fighting this war on behalf of
Isreal

- I speak on behalf of all mothers who have
lost their sons in Iraq.

Ms. Sheehan believes she is the catalyst for a new 60's style revolution. As she states "an organic movement" that will bring radical change. This movement is about as organic as a computer chip. It is being orchastrated by the fringe left that wants this country to fail in Iraq. They believe this is their path back to power.

Thankfully, there are now families who have lost a military member who are speaking out. They hold dear their loved ones commitment to a free Iraq as should we all.

Amazing, that is all I can say.

So why didn't we go to aid the uprising of Shiites that started when Bush the Elder urged it?

Eric, Bush the Elder actually was the one who failed to complete the war with Iraq during the Gulf War. He failed to go into Iraq because he did not want to offend some of the Arab allies. The US was begged by the Shiites to help liberate them at that time as well as the Kurds in the north who wished to be able to set up an seperate govenment. However the Turks objected to that and therein lies another reason for not completing the task at hand.

Another note, Sudan and the Durfur region is also floating on a sea of oil, why do you think the Chinese are there. They own the largest oil production facilities in the region.

Just thought you would like to know the rest of the story.

Yvonne,

I agree with your thought. Out of all the young men and women I recruited and my large station recruited in three years, only one person said it was because he wanted to "fight to protect American freedoms". Only one person.

Everyone else was just trying to get out of an economically depressed area and wanted to know what the military could do for them.

Jason,

Many young men and women join the forces because they are pressured to by mom and dad, recruiters, brothers and so forth. Some are even lied to by recruiters in order to get them to join. This is fact. I saw the Army and Marines do it all the time.

You give ages 22 or 25 or 37, but what about 18? 19? Although an 18 year old is legally an adult, mentally, he is not.

So Mr Produce
You want to go down this road. Pres Clinton had THREE 333333 chances to get Bin Laden and turned it down.

Mr Harper

You may have been an Army recruiter, I doubt it. Under Pres. Clinton, we had the lowest retention rate in the military since the Vietnam War. We had 14,000 members of the Military on food stamps. Today, retention rates are at an all time high.

WE ARE AT A CROSSROADS

TERRORISM IS AT MUCH AN ACT OF VIOLENCE AS IT IS A MEDIA EVIDENT. IT IS NOT REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT. AS MANY WOULD NOT LIKE TO BELIEVE IT, WE ARE AT WAR. STOP STANDING ON THE BROAD SHOULDERS OF 20/2O HINDSIGHT AND SAYING WHAT WE SHOULD HAVE DONE. THAT'S EASY. WE HAVE SETBACKS AND WE HAVE ACCOMPLISHMENTS. WHAT THE TERRORIST WANT (WHAT THEIR ULTIMATE GOAL IS)IS TO ERODE THE WILL OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. IF THEY DO, THEY WIN.

Andy, do you have any sources for your assertions that military retnetion under Clinton was the lowest since the Vietnam war and that current retention rates are at an all-time high? I searched but could not find anything to substantiate that claim.

I don't know Cindy Sheehan. Didn't know her son. I think he died a noble death doing something he believed in from what I've read.

I have no problem with Ms. Sheehan's opposition to the war. I think many people in this country feel we are in a losing battle with Iraq. I question decisions that are made daily. That's totally American to question if what we are doing is right.

I think she's turned her son's and her own pain into a 3-ring circus with the help of some over-zealous press looking for a story to run.

But that's just my opinion. It is entirely within her rights to vocalize her opposition in any way she sees fit. It's called freedom of speech. Even if you think she's being an ass, she has the right to be an ass if she wants as long as she doesn't break any laws.

Personally, I'm kind of tired of seeing her and I think she's getting more attention that she deserves but her 15 minutes of fame will be up soon. I hope she finds healing and solace and comfort and whatever else it is she is looking for.

Dissent is not only our right as Americans, but our duty. When we see something that our leaders (who work for us) are doing with which we disagree, we MUST speak up.

Regards,
Tony

Can you imagine if we all went to the lengths of Cindy Sheehan? There'd be tents lined up all over Vandalia.

Which might make a point, truth, don't you think?

You know, sometimes, if you're too subtle, the people you're trying to communicate with just miss your point.

I think those tents on Vandalia would speak loudly and clearly.

:-)

Regards,
Tony

Brian,

The all-male Iraqi assembly is poised to adopt a constitution that designates Islam as the arbiter of family law. Whose freedoms are we fighting for? Certainly not women's freedoms. Women in Iraq aren't even second-class citizens, in fact their rights are only a little better than
a dogs'. This is a quagmire and it's not going to end well. It's time to cut our losses and pull out. I wouldn't want my son or daughter to be killed so that an Iraqi man can kill his wife because she spoke to another man in the marketplace or kill his daughter because she doesn't want to marry the guy dad's got picked for her. There aint nothin' free about that.

Susie, Iraq's National Assembly is not all-male.

Susie and the cut and run bunch. Do you even think about what you are saying? I'm not defending the decision to go into Iraq, but we are there now. If we cut and run right now what will that tell our enemies the terrorists? We are weak and lack resolve. Do you think honestly if we leave now that Iraq will become a terrorist state and launching ground for terrorists like Afghanistan was?

Your statements and those of Cindy Sheehan can only bring comfort to the terrorists in that their tactics are working: get the Americans against this war, they pull out, we win, period.

I agree with you that Islamic women do not enjoy the freedoms that Western women do, but did women not vote in the Iraqi election? Do you have proof that they are walking around in burkas and being treated like dogs? Were women free to vote when Saddam was in power?

First, excuse the error on the "all-male" assembly. Let say predominately male. That doesn't change the equation much, however.
Second, the Qur'an also places a dress code upon its followers. For women, it emphasizes modesty. Allah says in the Qur'an, "And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not to display their adornment (interpreted as the hair and body-shape) except that which ordinarily appears thereof (interpreted as the face and hands) and to draw their headcovers over their chests and not to display their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands fathers, their sons, . . . ." (surat an-Nur verse 31). Thanks to wikipedia for that excerpt.
It doesn't mention burkas by name, but that's a pretty accurate description. Google Sharia or islamic law+women and see what you get, Dan. I don't need proof that they are walking around in burkas. I'm not pointing out the failings of the society as it is now (although there are several). I'm talking about a system that we are helping to install. The rules that Iraqi women will be forced by law to follow are restrictive at best, oppressive at worst. Now it probably isn't important to you as a man what women in Iraq can wear, where they can go, who they can see, what they can do. As a patriotic American, you are supporting the war in Iraq in order to bring freedom to that country. What is freeing about living under Sharia? Don't sneer, make a cogent argument instead. Tell me why we should fight for a government that thinks it's OK for half of the population to live as second class citizens. Tell me why it's OK for us to help usher in a system of religious despotism. We point to the political and moral failings of our founding fathers for allowing slavery to remain a legal part of our society, why should we send our sons and daughters to die to help install a government that has the same moral and political failings? I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot, I just want answers to those questions. You got any?

Susie, I once again see that difficult questions are posed. I can only hope that reasonable and rational answers will be forthcoming. Or should I say attempts at the aforementioned. I do not think that any of us have the definitive answer to all of what is happening in Iraq.

I do however, agree that American lives should not be shed to help usher in a form of government that does not recognize the inate right of EACH human being, regardles of gender, religious persuasion, orientation, etc. When those compartmentalizations come, then people become less than human and therefore, non-human.

Thanks for bringing to light some of those difficult issues yet again!

Peace!

Dan: yes, women could vote under Saddam.

Susie, I notice how you conveniently ignored the first two paragraghs of my post and only addressed the third. Would you kindly address the first two?

Thank you Roch, I do recall women could vote. Susie I am the first to agree that I would not want to live under Islamic law and would not want my wife to either. We agree on that. But please answer my first two paragraphs.

Thanks in advance.

Susie,

Women in America are walking around in Burkas as well. Go ask them if they consider themselves to be second-class citizens. I think you'll find their responses to be quite interesting.

Dan,
Yes, we're in Iraq, and we're in deep. But I believe that the terrorists are going to think what they want to and we can't do much to change their mind about the US. They are looking through the lenses of hate and religious dogma, heck, they don't mind kidnapping aid workers trying to help the Iraqi people and then executing them. What kind of warped person does that? They're not just going to say, "man, the Americans really mean business, we'd just better hang it up." They WANT to die trying to destroy us. They believe it's their fastest way to heaven. We're not going to reason or persuade them to do ANYTHING we want them to do. I think if Islamic law becomes part of the law of the land, then it won't matter how long we stay there, religious fanatacism will be encouraged and will flourish. I think we need to make decisions based on the facts and the principles that guide this nation, and not on the message we think we're going to send and how the terrorists are going to interpret it.
I also think that the American people are smart enough to form their own opinions about this war and that they are not dupes. The terrorist aren't going to be able to "get the county against the war," I think our government is doing a good job of that with their unrealistic expectatations. The Bush administration is going to see a big shift in support if the new constitution is ratified as proposed. Women in America can vote, speak their mind and are listened to. Women (and some men) who support the president now will turn against the whole idea of this war if Bush allows this constitution to pass unaltered.

I also think that the American people are smart enough to form their own opinions about this war and that they are not dupes.

Ha, that's a good one, susie!

Re: Yvonne & Brian Harper

Please sign up for some remedial reading courses.

Perhaps then, you will be able to distinguish the more salient passages in my writings.

Furthermore, you would most likely improve your reading and writing skills, if you were to update your class-warfare, Liberal inspired talking points regarding the under privledged and their recruitment in the military.

This was an old tool that was used by the Communists when they infiltrated the anti-War movement while we were fighting in Vietnam.

www.geocities.com/youth4sa/vietnamwar.html

I will concede there is a very small percentage
of those that would enlist for reasons other than, to serve and protect their country.

The government has stated that a 13-14 year old girl can get an abortion without the consent of her parents, if she is deemed mature enough or mentally competent to make this decision, your argument that a 18 year old is not mature enough to enlist in the armed forces is without merit.

9/11/2001 changed everything. Our son's and daughters that were adorned with their tatoo's, pierced ear's and whatever (mine included), suprised us when they displayed their anger for those that would attack America, not our Armed Forces, but innocent civilians, men, women and children. These kids, ages 18-25, their bodies covered with tatoo's, and piercing's, volunteered to serve and protect our country, and much to the suprise of the "Rest of the World," became the most sophisticated, and lethal fighting force in the world. May God Bless our Armed Forces!

Mr. Harper

With regard to your truly inspired statements about Pat Robertson, have you not realized, or perhaps you weren't aware that our constitutionally guaranteed right of "Free Speech" has not been repealed.

The idiotic, and racially insensitive statements from Calypso Louie Farrakahn, and his brother in arms, Harry Belafonte, were constitutionally protected also, the same as Pat Robertson.

However, I feel that Pat Robertson had truly errored in his statement regarding the assassination of the Communist Dictator Hugo Chavez.

Pat Robertson forgot to include Fidel Castro, Kim Jung Ill, the heads of Syria, and Iran.

However, your statement re: Pat Robertson will meet his "BOYFRIEND" THE POPE IN HELL....

Mr. Harper, let me point out that I am Catholic, and that the Pope is my spritual leader, as well as the spiritual leader for over 1 billion Catholics worldwide. In the real old days, our parents taught us, "If you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything at all," you obviously haven't been taught this, which is most unfortunate.

However, I will attempt to lower myself, so that you can better understand my next statement, as I stated previously, as a Catholic, I found your statement about the Pope, personally offensive. As a Catholic I do not believe in abortion.

Mr.Harper, when you were conceived, your parents had two choices, apparently, they choose incorrectly!

Jason, Once again you have only given YOUR opinion as to the reasons America's young adults are signing up for military service. And you keep building strawmen to try to take people's attention away from the fact you have no proof, only opinion.

You may be as insulting or as opinionated as you feel is necessary but you can't avoid the truth. You are still only left with opinion.

I accept your opinion is how you feel but you can't FORCE it on others as fact. You are guilty of using an old tool yourself. Say something often enough and forceful enough and some people will start to believe it's true.

Luckily folks are more enlightened than they used to be and see that ploy for exactly that, a ploy.

So unless you can put some facts behind your opinion, please don't be so crass as to question my integrity and my facts.

Dan, A scenario: You and a terrorist are arguing about a point. You are pointing a handgun at him and he is aiming an ak47 at you. If you are killed there will be no one to head off a larger situation involving many more people. Are you going to take him on and be (thought of as) a dead hero or are you going to back off and be thought a coward?

I think I would back off, go back to the drawing board and figure out how to save the many and win the war. You don't have to win every battle to win the war.

Yes, we are embroiled in a battle aganist terrorism (or so I am told) but the whole war is not in Iraq. Anyone who thinks it is the beginning and the end is in serious denial.

So what if the terrorists think us cowards if we pull out of Iraq? But as Susie said, you are only speculating as to what the terrorists may or may not think. And it is speculation as to what, if any, effect our actions would have in the whole scheme of things.

That is one of the problems as I see it. We did not go into battle with any mission except to bomb the heck out of Iraq and, like the proverbial dog chasing a car, did not have clearly defined battle plans or exit stratagy. The whole scheme was not part of the equation, only this one faction.

That is still the problem IMO. Folks want to focus all their attention on this one battle and not the whole war. We have sunk more money than we have into this battle, treated our precious troops like a dispensable commodity and alienated our allies.

And for what? Is it making us safer? Are we any closer to eliminating terrorism? Is the Iraqi government any closer to passing a constitution WE approve of? Are the Iraqi people closer to taking responsibility for their country and themselves? Are the American people any more likeminded about this battle?

Any fool can wage battle aganist anything. It takes a responsibile, mature, and honest person to be able to admit a mistake and set about trying to rectify it. But people respect a person who is able to do that. People believe that a person like that has the best interest of everyone at heart, not just themselves.

Cindy Sheehan, regardless of what you thin of her, IS the voice of a growing number of Americans who want answers and are brave enough to ask the questions.

If Jason is a "christian" I'm sure glad I'm not. He actually applauded that TV "christian" Robertson for calling for the murder of a human being. Jason is murder a "christian" family value in your home? Bet you send your kids to a "christian" school. Jason why don't you and Dan sign up in the army and go to Iraqnam and put your religion of murder to good use.

Folk, don't disagree with Brian, he can't be wrong. Don't you know he thinks he's God?
Also, Dan never answered my questions.
"Tell me why we should fight for a government that thinks it's OK for half of the population to live as second class citizens. Tell me why it's OK for us to help usher in a system of religious despotism. We point to the political and moral failings of our founding fathers for allowing slavery to remain a legal part of our society, why should we send our sons and daughters to die to help install a government that has the same moral and political failings? I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot, I just want answers to those questions. You got any?"

Folk, don't disagree with Brian, he can't be wrong. Don't you know he thinks he's God?
Also, Dan never answered my questions.
"Tell me why we should fight for a government that thinks it's OK for half of the population to live as second class citizens. Tell me why it's OK for us to help usher in a system of religious despotism. We point to the political and moral failings of our founding fathers for allowing slavery to remain a legal part of our society, why should we send our sons and daughters to die to help install a government that has the same moral and political failings? I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot, I just want answers to those questions. You got any?"

Folk, don't disagree with Brian, he can't be wrong. Don't you know he thinks he's God?
Also, Dan never answered my questions.
"Tell me why we should fight for a government that thinks it's OK for half of the population to live as second class citizens. Tell me why it's OK for us to help usher in a system of religious despotism. We point to the political and moral failings of our founding fathers for allowing slavery to remain a legal part of our society, why should we send our sons and daughters to die to help install a government that has the same moral and political failings? I'm not trying to put anyone on the spot, I just want answers to those questions. You got any?"