Obviously, the Baptists do love everyone -- so long as you accept their version of the word "love." It's a sort of "tough love" that says "you can't join our club unless you follow the rules in the Bible that we like most."

I agree David that God loves all of us. However, the Baptist faith has every right to determine who they feel is acceptable within their churches.

If you are gay, and Baptist and feel you have been abandoned by your faith, please do not lose your faith. Look elsewhere for love and guidance. There are many Christian faiths that welcome homosexuals. United Church of Christ, Methodist and Presbyterian just to name a few.

The important thing to remember is that God loves you no matter who or what you are.

You are confusing love with permissiveness. I love my children, but I don't not permit or encourage wrong, dangerous or stupid behavior. I warn them of those dangers and the consequences because I want what is best for them and I love them. If you permit your children to do anything they want in the name of "love", I sure hope my children don't marry your children. God does want people to come to Him IN SPITE OF their sin, not because of it. He wants sinners to agree with him that that have sinned and to allow Him to help them turn away from their sin and for Him to change their hearts and minds.

There is a word that is used in the Bible to describe the concept of a God that looks the other way at sin (any kind of sin)----Idolatry.

I thought "idolatry" meant worshipping idols.

mr.whitehead wants the body of Christ to be all inclusive - insinuating that if we know that someone in our body (of believers) is living and participating in open sin that we should simply not recognize that sin but rather just welcome all who willfully sin into our churches ( this is what happened in the corinthian church ). that takes pauls teachings and throws them out the window. does anyone remember the parable ( spoken by Jesus )about leaven and how it only takes a very small amount to affect the whole lump ?
also mr. whitehead is naive and perhaps unlearned to state that " God is not pleased with all we do, but God will never abandon us ... "
apparently he has not read ezekiel, daniel or the revelation concerning the relationship and stance which God takes against those who choose not to receive Jesus Christ as savior. as a quick preview, upon the beginning of the tribulation period, approx. 1,000,000,000 (billion) people are killed in short order, these are people who rejected Jesus and it only get worse from there. the question is not whether God abandomed His people, but rather His people abandoned Him and now will pay the price for their arrogance and pride. prophecy is one of the main mechanisms which prove the scriptures are true.we all need to be aware of the opposite mercy side of God....JUSTICE ! i am not a fatalist but i choose to believe God's word (all of it, not just the parts that i like).
ecuman....good post....it's all about the power of God to save.

Astro Boy,

If you set up a god the way you WANT him to be and ignore who He says He is, then you are creating a false god and are thereby worshiping a false god.

ECUMAN,

Thank you for the explanation. I understand what you were getting at now.

Last night I was blessed in a special way. Our church hosted the annual Community Thanksgiving program. Covenant United Methodist Church, Parkwood Baptist Church, Turner’s Chapel AME, Deep River Friends Meeting, and Peace Christian Church came together to celebrate with a theme of Lord, You are Good. We were members of different denominations with different ways of worship. We had the only thing that is important in common, a love of God and our fellow man.

A member of Turners Chapel spoke before a song; he told us all that we should not worry about all the troubles in the world which we cannot solve; just put our trust in God. Then the choir sang God Will Heal the World. That will be my prayer as we enter the holiday season. I wish you all Peace and Love.

Thank you Carol for the warm wishes. I wish the same for you.

This letter is like many others in that it wants to bring up many other sins and question why these other sins aren't addressed. That's a valid question and I'm sure there is an answer. I'm not a Baptist and therefore can't tell you what their Articles of their denomination state.

I would go as far as agreeing that God sees all sin and that any sin separates us from God. I don't think any sin that isn't addressed by a particular denomination precludes another sin from being unholy.

Is the point the writer is making is that because John is a liar, then it is okay to accept Jake's homosexuality. I don't believe that to be true. I think John will be judged for his sins and Jake will be judged for his sins. John's being a liar will have no bearing on whether Jake enters the kingdom of God.

Personally, I think the Baptist church felt forced to take a stand because other churches are going beyond being inclusive and are taking the stand that homosexuality is not a sin.

Truth:

You hit the nail right between the eyes! Oops, I mixed metaphors!

"Is the point the writer is making is that because John is a liar, then it is okay to accept Jake's homosexuality. I don't believe that to be true. I think John will be judged for his sins and Jake will be judged for his sins. John's being a liar will have no bearing on whether Jake enters the kingdom of God."

I think the biggest issue in all of this is MAN doing the judging. That is for God, alone.

Hi everyone and this is a first time post.

I see many Christians and non-Christians (mistakenly?) say/write/claim that we are "all Children of G-d" (as did the author of this letter to the editor).

Here is my understanding and please correct me if I am wrong: we are all a "Creation of G-d", but we are not all "Children of G-d"...a child of G-d is one who knows and obeys his Father, through His Word, and is living (trying to) according to His Father's will for his/her life.

The homosexual argument is always that he/she is a child of G-d and my understanding is that for that to be true, they need to be living according to G-d's Will for his/her life (which means no homosexual sex; no homosexual 'lifestyle')...so if he/she is still sinning by continuing to engage in the homosexual sexual act, an act that G-d clearly detests in His Word, then he/she is not obeying his/her Father and the Father does not recognize that child any longer...(this man wrote G-d will never abandon 'his children' so my understanding is that if the homosexual continues to engage in the sexual, G-d will abandon him/her...)

Although the Baptists might not have been verbally clear on this 'pronouncement' they recently made, they are really just restating the Will of the Father for His Creation, which is to obey his commandments and sin no more...

One more thing, I also find it so curious that in these days of tolerance and acceptance, that sodomy between a man and a woman is always described as a depraved (and illegal in some states) act, but you never hear anyone who wants the homosexual to be unconditionally accepted 'as G-d's Child' describe the homosexual sex act as depraved or sinful...

Sam:

You are correct that we should not judge another person. The Southern Baptist Convention and probably most of us who agree with that postion, are not judging man, but judging the BEHAVIOR as wrong since it is condemned by God through Scripture.

Along with "humans" doing the judging, goes with humans determining what is sin. The scripture that I have reads, "whatever that is not of faith is sin." So, with that definition in mind, ANYTHING could be sin.

So, for the Southern Baptists to only name one thing could be construed as sin.

Essentially, that is the coreness of this issue. Some believe that homosexuality is a sin; while others believe it not to be a sin. I am of the latter. My role, as a Christian is not to go about determining who is or is not "right." I am COMMANDED to love EVERYONE, regardless. I am likewise commanded to share the gospel (GOOD NEWS) that God LOVE them (regardless of who the "them" might be)!

So, why all the fuss? I have noted only a few days ago, the Southern Baptists have only alienated themselves from people. And furthermore, God is still in control and still loves each and everyone of us, no matter what!

Shalom

Jesus saved the woman caught in adultery from being stoned and then said to her "go and sin no more." When we accept Jesus as our saviour that also means that we accept his teaching and his rules. We are not to add, change or take away from those rules. One of the rules in the Bible is that homosexual acts are an abomination before God. If you're concerned about obeying God, then you work hard to reject sin. We are in no way supposed to accept and affirm the sin in ourselves or in others. I would submit that making a gay person a deacon in a church would be just as wrong as selecting an alcholic, wife-beater or adulter as a deacon. Besides, how can you be part of the leadership of any church if you don't agree to try to follow all the rules? Isn't THAT hypocrisy?

i think most Christians can agree that there are some universal sins....for instance.....someone walking up to a mother in the park and shooting her 2 yr. old and 5 yr. old children in the head...i believe most Christians would think that is sin (remember this is a judgement call). now i can't speak for anyone else here but the scripture i am enclosing says homosexuality is an abomination and death is soon to follow.......
" Lev 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. " does anyone have another understanding of that scripture ? to say that we cannot determine what is sin,essentially says we just live our lives as we want (no self judgement) because we cannot determine if what i do is sin or not. whoa, what a dangerous approach to living a life serving God.personally i believe that the 'conscience' each person has is the basic instrument which 'tells' one what is sin and what separates you from God.
to GoBuckeyes .....i thought your comments were extremely insightful........

Apparently, there are many Christians who, although they know homosexuality is a sin, still do not wish to acknowledge that for fear of offending people.

They don't mind offending liars, prostitutes, adulterers, divorcees, etc, but they cringe that someone might call them 'homophobic'.

It's come to this. The Episcopal church allows openly gay bishops. The Evangical Lutheran Church allows gay 'weddings'. The United Church of Christ opens its doors to homosexuals.

The Baptist church is basically doing the opposite of these churches by speaking the truth. I find that much less offensive than desecrating the church.

Darryl:

So God loves Adolph Hitler NO MATTER WHAT? He may love Hitler, but Hitler will be punished for his sins if he did not repent. So will others who do not repent of their sins or deny that certain activities are sin when the Bible clearly indicates that they are sins. What you believe to be sin or not sin is of no consequence. What God says is sin is the deciding factor. Homosexuality is clearly a sin in the Bible (God's Word). Murder, beastiality, etc are also clearly sins. There are many things that Baptists identify as sin. This one merely makes the news. This topic was only a small portion of what the convention was about according to delegates from my church.

So homosexuality is worse than other sins? That's not what my Bible says.

Sure the Baptist Church has the right to exclude anyone they wish, but my question is why would someone openly attend a Baptist Church anyway?
Answer: because they are closed minded and need someone to tell them how to think.

I believe I quoted from scripture the definition of "sin." Just for clarity, I will do so this one LAST time. The "definition" comes from Romans 14.23; it reads, "....Whatever is not from faith is sin" (NKJV).

So, I will leave it to individuals. And as such, there will be dissagreement. I am able to disagree agreeably, I can only hope the same from others.

I must state however, that on this specific issue, I am known to stand my ground very sternly.

Shalom

Brian:

I haven't seen anyone on this board claim that homosexuality is worse than any other sin. The dispute is WHETHER it is a sin. The more liberal churches and members claim that it is not a sin. I have read the Bible all the way through each of the last five years. I find NO Biblical support for their view. In fact, I find just the opposite. If you want verses to support the view that it IS a sin, several posts above have offered a few and I would be glad to offer more. I don't see any previous posts that cite a Bible verse that it is NOT a sin.

I don't need a Baptist church to tell me what to think. I go to one BECAUSE after reading the Bible many times, I find that the theology most lines up with up what what I discover in God's Word.

Are there fundamentalist preachers who take figurative language literally? You bet. I'll be the first to tell you when I think they are in error. Like other pieces of literature, sometimes the author uses figurative language and sometime the language is literal. It is up the the reader to figure out what the AUTHOR INTENDED, not what I WANT it to mean.

I also think Pat Robertson and Jerry Faldwell should shut up when they see a microphone. There are many Christian leaders that can articulate the Christian message more effectively and less harshly. I cringe everytime they speak. Unfortunately, the media know they will put their foots in their mouth, so they are the first on reporters rolladexs.

hello brother darryl,
it has been awhile since we have spoken - i trust all is well. concerning your comment " Some believe that homosexuality is a sin; while others believe it not to be a sin. I am of the latter. " i need to take the other side of this issue and ask you what this passage speaks to you..." Lev 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. "
i had asked earlier for others thoughts but i had no takers. we could also easily speak of sodom and gomorrah illustration and i am aware of the argument that the reason they were destroyed was because they were inhospitable...if that were true then i could have easily been destroyed for acting the same way. personaly i believe it quite a stretch to make such a claim. the two angels were specifically sent by God "Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;(gen18:20)" and what the angels were immediately faced with as they entered the city was all the men of the city wanting to "know" (i.e have sexual relations) them. Lots plea to the men of the city was " I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly." so am i to believe that all the men of the city were there to show their hospitality to the angels and Lot thought that what they were doing was wicked ? does not pass the logic test ! and furthermore Lot offered his daughters to these men of the city because he thought these men were wicked because they were inhospitable. does not pass the logic test again ! personally i cannot see my God destroying a city because the men were inhospitable but i can easily see God doing it for reasons of homosexuality and throw on top of that, that maybe they were also inhospitable ( this being a minor infraction...imo ). finally you cited Romans 14.23 as being "the" definition of sin, which i agree is one of many definitions given in scriptures and here are a few more :
1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Jam. 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth [it] not, to him it is sin.

1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because [he eateth] not of faith: for whatsoever [is] not of
faith is sin.

Pro 24:9 The thought of foolishness [is] sin: and the scorner [is] an abomination to men.

Psa 19:13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous [sins];

1Ti 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some [men] they follow after.

i suspect if i were to try to pervert the romans passage, i could say that if by (my) faith i kill someone for no reason then it would by definition not be sin....i was in faith when i did it. the danger of using one scripture to support an argument shows a disregard of the entirety of the remainder of the testimony (imo). respectfully and enjoy your turkey on thursday...shalom !

David,

I've not read, so I cannot comment specifically, on the Baptist vote but would say that God could abandon us as He sees fit. Because we have abandoned Him. We're soft on the Word. Yes we should be loving to all but realize that God demands our repentence from sin. We all sin, but we must turn from the evil ways and do our best to not live and wallow in the gutter. We must hate the sin but love the sinner. BUT, the sinner must show signs of changing. The daily homosexual lifestyle is neither accepted by God nor should it be acceptable to Christians. To do so would be dishonrable to our Creator. He most diffentitely made marriage a one man and one woman place - to rule over the earth and multiply. But, excluding gays from any church is not the Lord's way. While on earth Jesus stayed with and hung out with the sinners but He expected them to change once they saw His light. That's it in a nutshell, or so I think: We should be His light so others would see it and want to be more like Him.

Buz, it has been some time since we have dialogued on the blog or on issues directly. We do have a fundamental disagreement on intrepretation. I revert to my comment on disagreeing in my previous post.

One thing though....how many cities/towns have anyone ever been to where ALL of the men were homosexual? I would like to know...I would like to visit that town and make the efforts to have it placed in the Guinness Book of World Records. It seems that this one peculuarity was not mentioned in Buz's post.

Still, after many years of deep research of scripture and consultation of scholars of same, I came to the conclusion of the belief that I now possess. And trust me people, those years were tough and the research was difficult. However, when God showed me through the latter that I was wrong, I knew it and repented of same.

Shalom

Interesting that the author of the original letter never says that homosexuality is not a sin. He just said that God loves all people.

I checked my Bible and saw that greed is mentioned in the same sentence that is used to justify all this hatred of gay people. Why is it that nobody gets upset about people joining a church and never repenting of their greed?

And isn't it a sin to hate people of other races? How many "Christians" have had their behinds in the pews every time the doors opened and went to their graves without repenting of their hatred? Might be plenty of elbow room in heaven!

I am glad that you brought up Leviticus.....go to the website religioustolerance.org and it has some very interesting information concering this various topic and provides evidence and arguments from both points of view. The bible has been through many translations to reach the point it has today, and alot of our opinions are based on wordings that may or may not be correct translations (some translations even made deliberate changes) This website delves into that. The old testament also tells us that certain dietary practices are a sin (Leviticus Chapter 11), yet it is a non issue in todays world-most people shrug it off and eat that yummy bacon anyway.
That is what bothers me most about this whole argument. If it is ok to "ammend" this part of the bible (and other parts that discriminate against women and certain races, or divorce etc.) because the times have changed, then why not with this issue. IMO it is simply because people like to pick and choose what parts of the bible the like and dont like to adhere to. Not many people get it all right and if you are a good, decent person-who just happens to be gay, christianity does and should not elude you, and if people do not have to give up pork then you sure as hell shouldt have to give up loving someone. (which is another thing I think so many people do not realize, everyone focuses on the sexual aspect of homosexuality, when in reality its like any other loving relationship-the sex is just a part of that) So if you say that homosexuality is a sin, then I sure hope you didnt have any bacon this morning!
In the end God will judge us, it is not up to me, you or the Baptists to consider who gets into heaven.

"Two men must not engage in sexual activity on a woman's bed; it is ritually unclean.

This is the actually direct translation of Lev 20,
"By reading various translations of the Bible, generations of Christians have been conditioned to expect this verse to condemn all homosexual behavior -- or at least all male same-sex activity. They expect that it will be morally condemned as "an abomination" or at least as a "detestable" act. But this new translation does not prohibit male to male sexual behavior; it only limits where the act can be performed. And it does not say that this conduct, if done on a woman's bed, is to be morally condemned. It only says that it is ritually unclean, like coming near a dead body, or eating shellfish, or getting a tattoo" To engage in this behavior in a womans bed is the actuall issue. During this time, locations and rituals were very important making the location of the act the issue, not the act itself.

last one for now........

"Jimmy Creech, former senior pastor of the First United Methodist Church, in Omaha, Nebraska has concluded that: "...there was no understanding of sexual orientation in the culture and time when scripture was written. There was not even a word for 'homosexuality' or 'homosexual' in Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic, the original languages of scripture. There are biblical references that condemn same-sex sexual behavior, but they are all within contexts related to violence, idolatry, promiscuity and exploitation. Careful reading within the historical setting reveals that it is the violence, idolatry, promiscuity and exploitation that is condemned, not the same-sex sexual behavior. The same condemnation is given to opposite-sex sexual behavior that is violent, idolatrous, promiscuous and exploitative." 3
The Bible says little about homosexual feelings.
The Bible says nothing about the concept of sexual orientation for the same reason as it does not mention television sets and airplanes. All were unknown in biblical times. The concept of orientation dates only from the late 19th century and only began to be seriously investigated in the middle of the 20th century"

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibx.htm

You people are spooky. I agree with what the writer says. Baptists [and any other group] should not hate people because they are different from them. I am a gay male...and I was born who I am. I believe in God, however, I don't believe in Christians because they have twisted what Christ stood for and have used their twisted beliefs to justify hate, discrimination [including slavery had more recently blocking black people from worshipping in their churches]. Whether or not you holier than thou bible-thumpers believe it or not, I know a lot of gay people who are devout christians and I know a lot of churches that more than welcome gay people into their churches. Do I think God doesn't want me to have a fulfilling relationship? No. God made me who I am and there is a reason for it. God doesn't make mistakes. My partner and I graduated from the same high school year the same year and have been together for many years. Do I think God hates either of us for sharing our love? Nope. Do I think that who I am or my love for my partner is a sin? Nope, again. Do I think that all of you holier than thou bible-thumpers judging me and others is a sin. You're damn right I do. I think you pick and choose what you want to believe and avoid things that may not justify your feelings like "Judge not lest Ye be Judged".

Good Post Tony. I posted some items that relate to the issue and even offered up some arguments that show that Christianity and Homosexuality can easily coexist. Hopefully people can see the rationale behind these arguments and be more willing to change thier minds. Unfortunately Tony, I think that many will continue to judge others.

Tony Morton and k,

You talk about the Baptists judging... aren't both of you doing the very thing that you lambast them for doing?

(And btw, I am NOT a Baptist.)

One resource I would suggest regarding this topic can be found at www.str.org. Key "homosexuality" in the search field and you will find several articles related to this topic. There is a cassette or CD titled "Setting the Record Straight:The Bible and Homosexuality" that covers all of the relevant passages and possible interpretations. It comes with the teaching notes as well. I have listened to it many times. I think it fairly points out what is clear and what is unclear and has other possible interpretations. I recommend it to anyone who is interested in an honest look at this subject and how it is addressed in the Bible.

ECUMAN, find us a site that gives a balanced view that is "anti" homosexual. When that is done, I will appreciate the dissenting view much better.

I checked out the web site mentioned. Did anyone else do this? Notice where the four men on the home page did their training. NONE has a stated degree in either Theology or Scripture. I find this difficult to accept. Two of the three men are working on Philosophy of Religion & Ethics degrees. While these are worthy topics, delving into homosexuality with these is not always the brightest thing to do.

Shalom

darryl,
good to see your response. i am one who is appreciative of all your time and effort in study. i can appreciate your conclusion while disagreeing with it. ultimately when two understandings are diametrically opposed, one (or maybe neither) will be correct and the other incorrect and that will be known on that day.
in fairness to your comment " One thing though....how many cities/towns have anyone ever been to where ALL of the men were homosexual? I would like to know...I would like to visit that town and make the efforts to have it placed in the Guinness Book of World Records. It seems that this one peculuarity was not mentioned in Buz's post." in my post you will find " so am i to believe that all the men of the city....... ", so you will see i did specify that all the men in the city were participating, i suppose i could have unpacked that for all to understand, but i believe most who blog here are intelligent enough to decipher some of this stuff. i was just recently accused of treating someone like a 5 years old b/c i was explaining things. seems like one can't win ! it also seems as though you find it impossible to believe that all the men in S&G could be homosexual. while i agree it does seem odd, i believe also that all things are possible (where God is concerned).
to some of the others here who can't understand why some here are fixated on homosexuality as a sin...consider this ...THIS BLOG IS ABOUT THE HOMOSEXUALITY ISSUE !!!! if you want to believe that i or some others here do not believe that greed, glutony, idolatry etc. are sin , you are free to believe that. i suggest you write a LTE about greed being sin and then let the blog begin !
i was also wondering what it means when someone says " This is the actually direct translation of Lev 20 " ?? i've studied the hebrew on this text and do not see how one can arrive at that statement.
also " But this new translation does not prohibit male to male sexual behavior.... ". like i've said in the past ...if you don't like what God's word says about a specific issue, just wait around long enough and someone will come up with a "new translation" which fits your theology ( i believe it's called new age ? ).

" NONE has a stated degree in either Theology or Scripture " ........and therein lies a huge problem. this statement presupposes that God does NOT speak to and through His people UNLESS they have some type of theology/scripture degree !? darryl you claimed in this blog to have heard from God concerning this homosexualtiy issue - is it beyond the scope of possibility that God may have spoken to these men as well ? take a close look at Paul's credentials, seems like he made a few mistakes as a highly degreed scholar of the O.T. - it took Jesus Christ himself to straighten paul up on his theology and i suspect that Jesus (thru the Holy Spirit) still teaches this same way today.

Bunny-No I am not judging the baptists. The only thing I said was that they do not decide who gets into heaven (and I also said I do not as well) They have a right to express thier opinion and I have a right to provide arguments that disagree with that opinion. I am not saying the baptists are horrible people or that should be banned from enjoying the same civil liberties that you and I enjoy--that is where we differ on the judging issue. All I can do is provide them with rational arguments and hope they change their minds. That is all most of us on this blog can do-but the majority of the time no one succeeds in changing anyones view.

Buz-S & G is mentioned in the website I discussed www.religioustolerance.org, and it talks about how the original translations of the bible regarding S& G may have been misconstrued to suggest that it was only men there. Certain religious scholars believe that the hebrew words mention men, women and children living there. Is this correct? I do not know for sure because I do not read hebrew, but many of the scholars that discuss the translations have been reverends and are christian or have the credentials to determine whether wording mistakes were made. My main concern is that many Christians are using mistranslated scripture to base thier opinions of homosexuals on. Man made the biblical translations and I for one believe that small wording mistakes can have a huge impact on the meaning of the text.

"I know a lot of gay people who are devout Christians"

They may be sincere, but they are also in denial.

Some of you seem to think that Christians or Baptists get off on 'hating' gays. I would like to say that Christians ARE human. We all sin. And we often have to ask for forgiveness.

But for Christians, like others, we still exist in this world. We have gay brothers, fathers, mothers, friends, etc. I have gay friends that I've known since we were in kindergarten together. You think it's fun to try to witness to a gay person, especially one you love? Do you think it is fun to know that your friend or family member will spend an eternity in hell all the while living in denial and thinking God will make an exception for them? Do you think it is fun to tell someone they are going to have to change their entire lifestyle to enter the kingdom of God even down to ignoring their emotional desires--some of which have been present since their pre-teen years?

It isn't. There is no joy in any of this.

That being said, when I became a Christian, I was FAR from pure. I had sexual relations before marriage, I had all types of lust issues, I had greed, I was a thief and a liar and a gossip. Stealing and making up stuff came natural to me. I was good at it. I could have probably continued to steal and nobody ever would have caught me. But I would have known and God would have known.

But God changed that. He forgave me when I repented. Does that mean the temptation is gone? No. I'm often tempted. Thoughts like "Oh, it's only a 59 cent soda. Or.."they were probably just going to throw that away anyway" will pop in my head at my weakest moments. Prayer gets me through those moments.

But then there are times when I'll exaggerate or I'll chew somebody out because I've had a bad day. Those are the times when I have to ask for help and forgiveness.

Now, I may have offended some of you. Some of you who are homosexual or bisexual don't want to hear what I have to say. But I'm not saying this for my fun. I'm saying it because I've been on the other side of salvation. And it is a side where there is no hope. Where love is fleeting. And I don't want that for anyone. And it is worth offending people or causing them to persecute me in order to tell them what God's word says. At least if you know the truth, you can make an informed decision on whether or not you truly want to follow Christ or not.

k,
i hope i did not lead you to believe i am a hebrew scholar, i am not. i simply study the hebrew wording to find the flavor in scripture that is often overlooked. i do not however( at least i try ) approach any scripture with a bias to hear it support my preconceived viewpoint.
how does this speak to you ?
Rom1: 24 (NLT) So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. 25 Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen.
26 That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.
28 When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. 29 Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. 30 They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. 31 They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. 32 They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
is there another truth hidden in these scriptures or are we to take them for face value ?

Darryl:

Are you saying that only PHDs in a particular discipline can speak on a subject? If so, unless you have a PHD in this area, why should I find your opinion valid or even interesting? PHDs can have biases and make fundamental errors in thinking even in their own discipline. The credentials are not the most important consideration. The argument itself and the supporting reasons are the most important considerations. In don't have a PHD in this area, but a PLAIN reading of all the passages shows me that God condemns homosexuality. Do you need to look at every translation of the Bible and get every opinion from a PHD to know that murder is wrong? Do you read this newspaper or your mail using the same requirements you advocate for the Bible?

Buz,
I do not think you have to be a hebrew scholar to interpret the bible, and it is up to you as a person and as a Christian to decide the degree to which you subscribe to the bible ( for instance do you take every word literally or do you believe, as I do, that certain passages and scripture could have been mistranslated, or that the era in which it was written effected the rules set forth, or that man put his own opinion, beyond God's word into the bible). None of us can know for sure, and as a result I respect others opinions on this matter(including yours) but I just cannot bring myself (and I am not saying you are doing this) to judge one group of people on something that "may" be. Most people have very strong feelings one way or the other on the subject and my only purpose for writing is to show that there is a viable alternative. I think most people on this forum, except for a few, do not hate homosexuals, even if they disagree with the lifestyle. That being said, violence and hate crimes against homosexuals begin with hateful thoughts and words. However one feels on this matter, the important thing is to remember that we all are human and deserve to be treated as such. Have a good holiday everyone.

k,
i believe the bible is God's word to man. i do realize that some of it presents difficulties and perhaps that is due to limited knowledge or maybe even knowledge which God has not yet revealed ( or perhaps for reasons beyond my comprehension). either way i do not feel at liberty to pick and choose which scriptures i can say are not God's word, therefore i accept the scriptures as God's word even to the extent that i may not have a full understanding and trust God to carry me through my ignorance.
i could not help but notice that you did not address the roman 1:24-32 scriptures i submitted.... is this one of the mistranslated or misquoted scriptures you refer to ? and if so would you care to share the correct translation ?
do you believe Jesus Christ engaged in homosexual relations ?

So glad that since I rape, steal, covet my neighbors stuff, and have an idol I worship I'm still welcome in the Baptist church. Those gay's are so evil.

Styler27410,
take a few minutes to read all the posts here and you will find that most here believes that rape, stealing, coveting and worshiping idols is also sin and certainly the baptist also believe this to be so. get a grip, the majority of this thread is addressing homosexuality specifically, so simply because other sins are not discussed here does not mean some, if not most believe there are many sins to be concerned with. get up to speed before making silly comments. have a great turkey day !

Buz, you missed my joke. I was rather asking why are Baptist's making such a point with gays when there are much worse sins out there? I do have a grip, and I'm simply challenging why gays are singled out. Let's kick out people who have premarital sex. Come on, lets have that in a convention! I just wonder what the big push is to pick on gays and call it OK, because a 1500 year old book kinda implies it some times. Buz I'm sorry you can't see the irony in my statement. I hope you have a great turkey day, but damn you for trying to belittle my post! If it was so pointless I'm sure you wouldn't have wasted your time.

Styler27410,
what you have taken for belittling, many usually take for spirited discussion. while most others on these blogs can respectfully agree to disagree, aparently you cannot. frankly most others on this blog have sent blessings on this day, you choose to send me damnation....i will take the high road and wish blessings upon you and your household.
i have noticed that those who do not wear their big boy pants into these threads, usually resort to antics such as your. respectfully...........

Styler27410,

I agree with Buz - posting a damnation here is very small on your part and relegates your entire post baseless, in my opinion. What grade are you in now? I would like to report you to your principal.

Buz, I am usually on the same page with you but am sorely disappointed in your response to Stylar. Although you stated your posts in a politically correct manner, there is no mistaking the insulting tone of your responses.

It was not right for Stylar to damn you, but at the same time, your condemnation of his opinion was not warrented either. And it certainly was not condusive to open dialogue.

skyler and yvonne,
i have reread the post you are referring to and i can see where some of my wording was hurtful and if given the opportunity for a do over i would not have called his comments silly ( he does have a right to his opinion ).i have never been afraid to admit i made a mistake ( which i did here ) and have no ego to prevent me from apologizing to skyler, which i do. thanks yvonne for causing me to seee my mistake.

Buz-sorry for the late reply, I have not checked the blogs for the last few days.

This passage is interesting b/c it is Paul who says this because of "Paul's support for the oppression of women (1 Corinthians 14:34 - 35), and his acceptance of slavery as a normal social practice in (Philemon 1:15 to 16) are considered. They might feel that this passage in 1 Romans should be rejected as immoral and outside the will of God, much as other biblical passages are worthless and should be ignored -- including those which recognized slavery, required some hookers to be burned alive, advocated genocide, recognized the torture of prisoners, and required the execution of non-virgin brides"

All of the above were supported in the bible as well, but we have rejected those ideals over time.

Here are more arguments concering romans:

"Verses are unrelated to homosexuality: The complete passage describes how the ex-Christians engaged in orgiastic, presumably heterosexual sexual activities. This type of behavior was common among Pagan fertility religions in Rome during Paul's time. Paul writes that, later, God "gave them over" to something new: homosexual behavior. This implies that throughout their lifetime they had had a heterosexual orientation and had engaged only in heterosexual sex. God influenced them so that they engaged in homosexual sex. This was, for them, an unnatural activity. They were criticized because they were engaged in sexual activity which was unnatural for them. For a person with a heterosexual orientation, homosexual behavior is "shameful," "unnatural," "indecent," and a "perversion." The passage in Romans is not a condemnation of homosexual behavior. Rather, it disapproves of sexual behavior that is against a person's basic nature (i.e. homosexual behaviors by people whose orientation is heterosexual). Presumably this would condemn heterosexual behavior by gays and lesbians -- activity which is equally against their nature. 2

For the vast majority of adults, those who are heterosexual, it is indecent for them to engage in homosexual activities. For the small minority of humans who are homosexual, it would be indecent for them to engage in heterosexual activities. As C. Ann Shepherd writes: "When the scripture is understood correctly, it seems to imply that it would be unnatural for heterosexuals to live as homosexuals, and for homosexuals to live as heterosexuals." 3

Bruce Hahne writes, in point form: "Verses 26-27 exploit Jewish cultural prejudices.
Good rhetorical strategy: begin with assumptions of audience, build on them to make your point.
So Romans 1:26-27 speaks only of heterosexual people who act 'contrary to their nature.'
The text provides neither ethical nor behavioral guidance to lesbian, bay or bisexual people." 4


Verses relate to some homosexual activity, but not to loving, committed relationships: Some question whether the word "perversion" in Verse 27, and "such things" in Verse 30 are related to only certain gay and lesbian behavior. e.g.: casual homosexual activities outside of a committed, monogamous two person relationship, or
homosexual molestation between a man and a child. In Paul's day, the latter was often a slave.
group homosexual practices of any type, or
group homosexual practices in a religious setting. This was a common practice among Pagans at the time; e.g. in the temples dedicated to the Goddess Aphrodite).

"Paul is not speaking here of homosexual orientation. Instead, he is talking about the gentile world, a world of idolaters, who long ago rejected the worship of God and became a culture of abuse, in which power and conquest were established and displayed in sexual acts." 5
Passage refers to bisexuals and bisexual behavior: In Greek and Roman society of the time, bisexuality was regarded as quite natural; people in some walks of society were expected to engage in bisexual relations. Since most of them were heterosexual, bisexual activity would be against their personal nature. This behavior would be condemned because it is against their nature. One source states
"...God created each of us with a sexual orientation. To attempt to change it is, in effect, telling God that He created us wrong. The creation (us) does not have the right to 're-create' itself."

Passage refers to child sexual abuse: Some interpret the "men...with other men" clause to be a translation of the original Greek word for "pederasty" which was commonly practiced at the time by adult males with male children (often slaves). Thus Paul might have been criticizing child sexual abuse.
Passage refers to non-procreative sex: From Paul's era, until today, many people have believed that the only natural, normal sexual activity was between one man and one woman for the purpose of procreation. Thus "unnatural" sex would include: anyone engaging in sex for pure enjoyment
married couples who engaged in intercourse even though one partner was sterile.
married couples who had sex even though the woman was not in the fertile part of her cycle, or was past childbearing years

Perhaps Paul's use of the phrase "para physin" simply meant that the people engaged in same-sex practices that had no procreative function"

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibc5.htm....there is much more but I didnt want to copy it all. You can also access information that supports your argument (this website is pretty fair), this is just the argument that makes the most sense to me, especially considering that we have come to reject slavery, genocide, buring prostitutes,dominance over women,etc.(things that the bible has supported)as immoral. There are so many people out there who say our country becomes more immoral by the day, but I would rather live in a time where we rejected those horrors than go back to a time when the oppression of others was a day to day occurence. The bible is not always right, we have already deemed that so by rejecting the aforementioned issues, so why do some Christians hold so tightly to the issue of Homosexuality? It is ones right to disagree with the act, but to hold the Bible up as the end all and be all example of what is right in wrong just isnt enough for me when its made mistakes on other issues

k,
you have taken great liberty in translating scripture.....i am not permitted the same liberties you are by picking and choosing the scriptures that i believe are inspired, for i truly believe they all are inspired.let me see if i understand what you are postulating....God made some men and women homosexuals and unless they have same gender sex then they are in sin. then it stands to reason using that type of logic that God made some men and women murderers and if they DO NOT kill then they are unrighteous. so it is entirely possible using you reasoning that a homosexual pedophile(whom God also created as a murderer) can and should kill their victims if they want to enter the kingdom of heaven....have i got that correct ?
k, good luck on all of this....... someone has creeped into your house and lead you astray....2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
you have packaged your god up into a nice and acceptable version of what the glbt community needs to hear and either you are right or God's word is right and if it is the latter.....you are in for a rough ride.

Buz--until this post I have enjoyed discussing things with you. How dare you suggest that I have been led astray or that I am just picking and choosing scripture (that is what you are doing....picking the scripture that you say supports your argument-I am just arguing against it) Why arent you acknowleding the passages that support genocide, torture and the submission of women? I do not hear too many Christians touting those--does that scripture inspire you too? You obviously did not visit religioustolerance.org or you would know that this argument wasnt a version that the "glbt community needs to hear" Not to mention there was much more to that argument than it simply went against how they were born. Furthermore, I have considered myself agnostic for years now, after many years spent with a Christian upbringing, so the bible does not soley guide my moral compass. I simply try to be a good person (loving my family and my husband, helping others, accept those that are different from me........) As a result underlying threats that I am in for a rough ride do not affect me. Those in the Gay and Lesbian Community who happen to be Christian as well, will answer to God, not Buz Rutan, the Baptists or me. I am not sure what you mean by me being led astray ( "captive silly women.....".) I have been led astray by no one and stand by my belief that Gays and Lesbians should not be discriminated against and should share the same rights as others. Just because you do not agree with me does not mean that I am wrong, or that I have been led astray and that I am in for a rough ride if God is right (which you cannot know if every word in the bible is his, either, since man wrote it down it is completely possible that liberties, beyond Gods word were taken). That would be like me calling you a brainwashed, bible-thumping, idiot (which I am not at all saying) because you devote your life to God and the Bible. I simply want you to explain to me how you can condemn Homosexuality (because the bible says its wrong), and say you believe in everything that book says, even though it supports torture, genocide, stoning prostitutes, submission of wives to husbands, etc. etc. If you are truly accepting every thing the bible says as truth then you must support those things as well....if not please tell me how some things are the bible says should be adhered to and how others should not. Because that sounds like picking and choosing to me.

k,
" torture, genocide, stoning prostitutes, submission of wives to husbands, etc. etc.".......
if these are God sanctioned precepts....who am i to disagree...He is God , i am dust, He is creator, i am created.God is at liberty to do what He chooses and needs not my approval.
"I simply want you to explain to me how you can condemn Homosexuality ".................
let's get the facts straight, i don't believe you will find in these posts that i have condemned glbt, but i have been in agreement with what Gods word speaks to me concerning this subject and in that agreement it may sound condemning.the very fact that you call yourself agnostic, gives you greater latitude in what governs your morals..."the bible does not soley guide my moral compass." you get to pick which precepts from scripture guide you and then are at liberty to pick what the world says is p.c. - i get to use only half of that equation.
genocide,slavery,submission.....i believe Jesus is Lord....i believe that when He returns to judge the world, many people will be cast into the Lake of Fire (could be considered genocide ?)....i believe Jesus taught that all who are His need to understand the slave/Master (diakonos vs doulos, ie. which type of slave are you) relationship and i further believe as i submit to God's will, i will be becoming more like His son Jesus Christ. read john 17...and view this as the report that Jesus is giving to His father...i believe in this report you will find Jesus completely submitted to the Father.
it was not my intent to upset you, but God's word has a way of bringing things to light.

k,

after more thoughts. i am convinced that you and i are totally different people.....i believe in the God of the bible....you believe in ? so in essence there really is no need for you and i to have conversation about a God in whom you do not believe. continue your search and it may lead you to the cross. goodbye................

Buz--being agnostic does not neccessarily mean one does not believe in God, but means that I do not know one way or the other if he exists and if he does which religion is right. "Agnosticism asserts no knowledge of gods and therefore concludes there are no reasons to believe in them or not to believe in them. An agnostic follows this credo and differs from the atheist who has developed an active belief that there are no gods." My main problem, however, which cannot fit into such a definition, is not with faith, God or Jesus Christ. It is with organized religion. Man created this, and hijacked a person's relationship with the lord and turned it into a set of rules, regulations that have less to do with worshiping God and more to do with power. In my opinion God would be able to see into a persons heart and knows if he/she is good. Man does not have this power, yet over the years Man has precluded to know this, passing judgement on others, dictating who goes to hell and deciding which parts of the bible to adhere to (or which parts to ignore and leave out all together) Wars have been waged in the name of Religion, with all involved proclaiming that God is on thier side and thier religion. Faith and Spirituality are one thing, sitting here and saying that what I believe, or what you believe is the only right way is another. I respect the path that you have chosen and what you believe in and do not wish for you to turn your back on your religion.....please pay me the same respect. Your posts insinuate that I am lost, or somehow less of a person because I have not chosen the same path as you, yet you know nothing about what I do with my day to day life, how I live, or how I communicate my faith. Just because it does not fit what your idea is. Good luck in your life, and I hope that your journey with God brings you continued fullfillment and the ability to accept others who are different from you, not just homosexuals, but those that have chosen a different type of fullfillment. That being said, we agree on one thing, and that is there is really nothing else we can say to one another on this particular subject (although we differ on the why.... I will not stoop to insult that you are incapable of comprehending such a disscussion because you are Christian (as you insinuated that I was not worthy of this discussion because I am not), but rather say that neither one of us can or should give up on our own beliefs.