I agree with you, Bob. There is probably a truer Biblical perspective at Temple Emmanuel. You see, Bob, Jesus was a Jew. The Jewish understanding of God reflects the ethics of Jesus more than many of today's evangelical Christians.

As someone who knows Rabbi Guttman and the wonderful works he does in our community, I can tell you that his life reflects the works that Jesus taught his followers.

Today's cultural Christians are big on "fighting" for thier rights and pushing a nationalistic "Christian" agenda, but slow on the good works Jesus commands.

How can I judge this? How do I know? Volunteering for Greensboro Urban Ministry and Triad Health Project has put me in touch with many of our area's Christians (and Jews). Sadly, the evangelical and fundamentalist community is greatly under represented in serving the poor and needy in our area.

As a Christian, I feel Rabbi Guttman reflects what we ought to be and how we ought to conduct ourselves as followers of Jesus. I applaud his efforts in turning our focus back to what really matters, what Jesus taught. This seems to be a direct contradiction to what the "culturally revelant" 21st century version of Christianity deems important.

So Bob...will we be seeing you at Urban Ministry soon?

Sounds like the good rabbi has quite a lot of fans in the area. I'll have to be sure and dig up some of his stuff... he sounds like a cool dude.

progressive- Jesus was not a "reform jew" as is the movement at temple emanuel and why there is such a liberal and creative interpretation of who jesus is (guttman claims Jesus is a biblical prophet, but progressive, don't we know Him as G-d among us?)...reform judaism is a spiritual cult, man-made, not a serious religion and for all guttman's wonderful works as you put it, if you are indeed a christian as you claim (but i suspect you are probably also in a spiritual cult of christianity as your nicknmae suggests), G-d will say He never knew Guttman....not to say that you should give up your wonderful work at the Urban Ministry, but that you should understand clearly that you are serving G-d, not man or pridefully yourself....i gently remind and encourage you of Ephesians 2 v8...as for bashing evangelicals as "fundamentalists", i would ask you to see yourself in the mirror as a fundamentalist yourself, a secular fundamentalist who has now declared the war on christianity....be careful, progressive for you are playing a dangerous game with your soul...

I would agree that Rabbi Guttman is definitely more qualified to discuss the historical Jesus than is any "leader" at Westover. At one point, Westover did not allow women to hold leadership positions---Bob, is this still true? Westover spends a great deal of time conitnuing to condemn homosexuality, and remains a comfortable retreat for those who desire to be fed their beliefs intravenously.
Rabbi Guttman has always been a part of the greater community dialogue on religion, and was even a founder of a group that sought to link all the downtown churches, temples, and synagogues to feed the hungry and clothe the poor. Wow! That sounds a lot like what Jesus advocated....

Of course if building a bigger auditorium with millions of dollars is what you think Jesus was talking about, then for you, Thank God America Is A Free Country!

(Of course the Quaker Meeting House is probably being wiretapped by a President who is held in highest esteem by the Westover membership)

To Mr. Aronson:
I also can't believe you are attending Westover Church. It sounds to me like you are in the wrong church for your beliefs. It also seems to me, since you singled out Westover Church, that your letter screams "vendetta." Your point could easily have been made without naming names. So far as I know, Westover Church does NOT force anyone to attend. Perhaps you should have left long ago.

To All Others reading this: A person has to find the right "fit" for his/her faith (or lack thereof). I hope you won't judge Westover or any other church by what one person says. I am actually not a member of Westover, but I've visited there, and I've seen many wonderful things they do for our community. Often they are teamed with other churches (Urban Ministry is just one of many agencies) on these projects. Bottom line is, not every church/temple is a perfect fit. The secret is to find the church/temple (if that is what you want) that fits YOUR beliefs. If it doesn't fit, do the decent thing and move on instead of publicly criticizing.

jew4jesus,

You advise is noted.

Just curious...were you born into a Jewish family or do you just claim yourself a "Jew" for Jesus? Do you consider being Jewish a religion or a ethinicity? That makes all the difference in the world. If you are Jewish from birth, were you Reform, Conservative, Orthodox or Reconstructionist?

You're pretty harsh on Reform Judaism. Have you ever been to Temple Emmanuel? Have you spoken to Rabbi Guttman about your feelings. If you are a Jew then certainly you know how disagreements are to be handled within the context of the Jewish religion.

And you assume I have declared war on Christianity. Nope...just the opposite. I hope to expose the cultural US religion that goes under the guise of Christianity. Christianity as practiced by the early Christians and, indeed, taught by Jesus himself is far different than the christianity that is dominant today.

I urge you to read the Gospels...do what Jesus commands. Follow what he taught, not what your minister tells you, and you'll do okay with your life. Anything less than 100% committment to Jesus is idolotry.

Now if by following Jesus, you still think I am against Christianity or in a cult (whatever that might be), then so be it. A group of people said the same thing about Jesus and his followers when he walked the earth, so I guess I'm in good company.

Oh yeah...Happy Channakah!

Thanks bunny...point well taken.

Bunny, I agree that we all need to find a church that fits our beliefs and practices. I am a birthright Quaker. I have found the Quaker beliefs to still be mine. I found a home church here 36 years ago. While we do not all agree on every issue, we all hold the same basic beliefs.

I remember seeing Buddy Hackett on the Johnny Carson show (that really dates me, doesn't it). He said that the Jews and Christians and other religious people all are working for the same goals, just going about them differently.

I believe in the teachings and examples of Jesus. He taught us to love and care for one another; not judge one another; love and forgive our enemies; turn the other cheek; do all that is possible within our power to live peacefully with all mankind; and love the Lord with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself.

Religion is very simple to me. I don't worry about evolution..I just believe God created us and I don't care how he did it. I don't search the Bible to find passages which will justify judging or condemning others. I have a personal relationship with God. He lets me know when I am wrong. I don't need a church or another person to tell me this. My church allows me to gather together and worship God.

That was beautiful, Carol. Indeed, the teachings of Jesus are just that simple.

I've often wondered why folks who want the 10 commandments displayed in public buildings didn't fight to get the beatitudes displayed also. Matthew 5 is harder to follow than any 10 commandments could be. The beatitudes points the finger back to ourselves for self examination (queries?). The 10 commandments are more often than not used to comdemn others...a much easier task than looking into our own hearts.

Carol, I think you and I agree on this matter. I hope your words on judging others weren't directed at me because I certainly didn't mean my statements to be in judgement of Mr. Aronson. My point was entirely that his singling out a specific church was not necessary to make his point.

btw, I graduated from Guilford College, so I am well aware of the Quaker faith. *smile*

bunny wrote: "btw, I graduated from Guilford College, so I am well aware of the Quaker faith. *smile*"

Oh no, another one :-)! Dang, George Fox has brainwashed a lot of us, huh?

Here's one of my favorite Fox quotes:

"I saw also that there was an ocean or darkness and death,
but an infinite ocean of Light and Love which flowed over the
ocean of darkness. In that also I saw the infinite love of God... "

George Fox

progressive- i apologize if i am stuck on absolute truth vs relative truth, but it is my passion...that is why i chose to follow Christ and having popped out from reform jewish parents and therefore being raised as a reform extremely liberal, scripture-ignorant jew (like all reform jews), i sought for the truth at an early age and found Jesus Christ as my lord and saviour- He is the jewish messiah, is He not?...one is not born a christian, but one is born a jew....to know Jesus was a choice i made...the jews therefore consider me, and they also consider Jesus, and all other jewish believers, as traitors/apostates and no longer jewish...(they think it is cordial and nice of them to call Him a biblical prophet, again very PC)...

notwithstanding guttman being a fine man and a good worker (i'm sure he is, he is paid to be)in the community , does it trouble you in the least that he would state in an article for the community to see, and make it a point to do so, that our lord and saviour is merely a biblical prophet along with mohammed? (again i am passionate about the truth)...does it trouble you in the least that guttman made it his point to get his opinion published to make the point that he and jesus are on the same page and therefore can claim what is a worthy cause and what isnt for the christian community to undertake?...the american jews thrive in the US and enjoy a great life here, unlike jews in any other part of the world, because we are a christian country and we love all, especially and including the jewish people AND WILL SUPPORT THEM AND PROTECT THEM LIKE NO OTHER COUNTRY AND CONTINUE TO PROTECT AND PRAY FOR THE PEACE OF JERUSALEM (and pray that they would come to know the truth of who Jesus is, which is what the "Jesus Film" would demonstrate if they didnt garbage it!....but we know in the end times 144,000 jews will passionately proclaim the truth, Hallelujah!!)...

but like you, he is focused on this cultural christianity you perceive to be at the root of our nation's problems (i believe it is secular fundamentalism at the very root, but that is another topic for another time)...and so he falsely and evilly uses this 'historical Jesus' to criticize the spreading of the good news in the community...

the reform jews are now promoting "tikkun olam" which means 'repairing the world'in a partnership with G-d (i.e., that G-d has called the Jews to repair the world through good works), ..what tikkun olam means essentially is to do good and tireless work in the community with the less fortunate...much like the christian community does...but we perform it in service to our Lord, not in a partnership with G-d to repair the world...if G-d wants to repair the world he doesnt need any partners and those who believe that their tireless good work will repair the world are guilty of nothing less than the sin of pride...but G-d loves a humble and selfless servant...when Guttman publicly decides to tell the christian community what is a worthy christian project or cause and does so in the name of Jesus, we are not hearing the voice of a suffering servant, are we?

progressive: I said I graduated from Guilford College NOT that I am Quaker (which I'm not). The last time I checked, one doesn't have to be Quaker to attend that college.

jew4jesus ,
it is very refreshing to hear a Jew by birth and a Christian by choice, speak out boldly and it is apparent you love Christ the Messiah. you are an awesome testimony to the saving grace of our Lord Jesus. for guttman to relegate Jesus to no more that just another prophet should send red flags to real believers. imo when believers begin to gravitate towards non believers such as guttman and cast their lot with them, then i believe they begin a definite slide into apostasy. this in no way detracts from any community services he performs.
jew4jesus, wishing you a blessed new year and i encourage you to continue to be the obedient servant of Christ.......

buz

Sorry for misunderstanding your comment, bunny. By calling you a Quaker, I meant that as a compliment. And, no, one does not have to be a Quaker to attend Guilford College.

One would hope that folks who graduate from Guilford would at least have let some of the Quaker testimonies influence their life. Guess that's not necessarily true either.

Sorry, Jews4...I'm not convinced that God intends to send Jews who do not believe in Jesus as the Messiah to eternal hell. (By the way, I consider myself a Christian Zionist.)I believe the Light of God can shine through anyone, not just someone who might follow my spiritual paradigm.

You seem to be at odds (to put it mildly) with your Reform Jewish roots. However, the Reform Jews I know via Temple Emmanuel and the Hebrew Academy are not "scripture-ignorant" (i.e., the Hebrew Scriptures). I think that is a generalization. However, it is your cultural background and far be it for me to tell you about your community of birth.

I too believe in absolute Truth in the form of a person, Jesus Christ. However, we see through a glass dimly and do not ourselves know absolute truth in all matters. To say we do suggests we are on the knowledge level of God. And that's what got the first parents in so much trouble.

Speaking of the Jewish Messiah and the first Christians...I've been reading a bit of Tolstoy lately. He suggests that there is a vast difference between the law of Moses and the law of Jesus. The law of Moses is best represented by the 10 commandments. The law of Jesus is represented by the beatitudes. Do you, as a person born into Judaism, see this dicotomy?

progressive, I certainly didn't take your comment as an insult. I just wanted to clarify that point. And yes, I met many people during my four years at Guilford who, I feel, impacted my life. And some who didn't! Isn't diversity wonderful??? :-)

" Isn't diversity wonderful??? :-)"

Indeed it is...

Peace!

progressive- based on your last post and your previous ones today, imo, you either know enough about Jesus to be dangerous to others, or you are just so blind to the truth, or finally and hopefully, you just plain have a couple loose screws...if you are not in a cult, maybe you could start one up?...the christian zionists!

as far as your not being convinced about the jews (or anyone) being sent by G-d to hell for not believing in His Son as Messiah, G-d will do what He wants to do, whether you are convinced or not...His Word is all we have and He left it for us so that we would know truth from fiction...what is dim to you is clear to me...

Jew4,

It is interesting that you seem to know all the thoughts of God. For me, the only Word of God is Jesus (John 1:1...). Jesus said he would send the Holy Spirit to lead us into all Truth, not a book. However, I understand how you would believe that the Bible (I am assuming the protestant version) is the written inerrant word of God as your roots are in the Jewish religion as they are people of the book. Christians are people of the Spirit.

As you might already know, the canon of the Bible was not set until the 300's. Even now, there is great debate amoung Christians as to which books should be included in the Bible. The Roman Catholics have their canon, protestants their canon, Eastern Orthodox their canon. Before 300 and the takeover of Christianity by Constintine, the Christians relied on the Spirit in conjunction with the gathered community for Truth.

Added to that everyone from Jimmy Swaggart, to Billy Graham to Jim Jones to Joel Osteen to Ellen G. White believe(d) in the inerrancy of Scripture. All came from that same base yet had different ideas of "absolute truth". Again, there is no absolute Truth except Jesus who died for our sins and the sins of the world. According to Romans 10:9-10, there is but one thing one has to do to be a Christian and that does not include belief in an inerrant Bible.

Relying on the Spirit in the Gathered Community is what happens today in many congreagtions. This belief is not "cultic" as you have said but is shared by Christians throughout the world who wish to restore Christianity to its primitive state. These folks are many, but one group is the Quakers. And if you consider Quakers a cult, then you are the first I have heard to do so as, even though our means of gaining understandings are different, our beliefs are within the bounds of orthodoxy.

As for your implied problem with my being a Christian Zionist...I find that interesting. For in that way, I am in line with the majority of the fundamentalist Christian ministers who hold to a premillenial escatology. If Zionism is not your thing, fine. I just wonder if that is in some what self-hatred for your Reform Jewish heritage And yes, I know that not all Reform Jews are Zionists. But most who have had families who were victims of the Holocaust certainly seem to be.

You say I know enough about Jesus to be dangerous. If being totally in love with Him is dangerous, then so be it. Nothing can come between my Savior and myself, not a book, a minister...nothing. And I do know where you are coming from as I grew up in an evangelical/fundamentalist home.

The problem some people have with folks like me (and the numbers are growing by leaps and bounds), is that we don't fit into a neat little box that reflects late 20th century Christian theology. For too long the only Christian voice the world has heard is from evangelicals who interpret the Bible very narrowly and pronounce damnation upon those who disagree with them. By the way, not all evangelicals are like this. Many, like Jim Wallis of Sojourners (www.sojo.net), are beginning to speak up as another voice of evangelical Christian witness. They are saying that nationalism and judgementalism do not equate to Christ's teaching. I praise God for that. But they are being persecuted...of course that has been the case throughout Christian history. The worst persecution has come from Christians toward other Christians.

Please do not take my words as being harsh. I am just attempting to engage you in dialog and make you think. Already in your previous posts you have done the same for me. However, saying one "has a screw loose" does not seem to exhibit the fruits of the Spirit.

For myself, I do struggle with being self-righteous, being materialistic, claiming to be non-violent yet being violent in my speaking and writing. So, bottom line, is that I ask you to hold me with forgiveness as I will do the same with you.

God's peace.

telling someone they have a couple of loose screws or that they are in a cult is not the christianity i know and practice

Good LTE by Mr. Aronson. And even more good dialogue in the blog. Sadly, I sense some harsh words being spoken which should not be so in/from a Christian perspective. My hope is that the Holy Spirit has dealt/is dealing with ALL in regards to this. Each of us (from whatever FAITH tradition) should be aware of this. I believe that love is an integral part of ALL faith traditions. Therefore, each should seek to act in this manner.

Now, let the bashing begin because of the ending words of the previous paragraph. Those are my thought/feelings/beliefs, if one should disagree, fine. However, keep the bashing words soft as remember, Jesus instructed with LOVE as well!

By the way jew4jesus, why do you write "G-d" and not "God?"

Shalom

Looks like all the little socialists were drawn to the Rabbi's left wing-Jim Wallis type hogwash to cluck cluck amongst themselves. War against poverty indeed. LBJ's was a failure and now it is out of control.Leeches living in hotels while some bleeding heart liberal Klinton appointed Judge extends their stay by ordering the executive branch to spend taxpayer money to keep them comfortable and unemployed . Soon they will feel entitled. Hand up instead instead of hand out is the best approach. Unless you want to increase the victim class in America

War on Christmas phony? Has he been hiding under a rock ?

War not going well ?. What does he know but what the anti-Bush MSM tells the poor Rabbi. His column reflects the smell of Howard Dean. So now Rabbi Guttman is an expert on measures for improving Homeland security. His anti-war stance is obvious. I wonder how he would feel if the crazy Mullahs in Iran made a heavy nuclear first strike on the heart of Isreal as their President has vowed to do. All this peace and good will he mouths is simply empty feel good rhetoric falling on the deaf ears of our Muslim enemies who are not only waging a war on Christmas (like our secular hummanists) but on the Christians and Jews of the world particularly those in the evil satan US. Al Q is determined to see us on our knees/prayer rugs facing east and chanting Alla Akbar ! God bless President Bush and the good work he is doing to protect our country. Happy New Year

Just a side note to your comments, marion. George W. Bush has stated publicly that he believes Jews, Christians and Muslims worship the same God. He also insists the war is not against Islam.

He has also stated that Islam is a religion of peace. See this for documentation:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/11/24/wgod24.xml&sSheet=/news/2003/11/24/ixworld.html

And remember, George W. sent cards out this season with "Happy Holidays" printed on the cover. No mention of Christmas.

I don't know how a discussion of Bush entered into this. And goodness knows I am no fan of his. But I do believe that he is for all pratical purposes a universalist and is much broader than any evangelical in his ecumenism.

He is also very supportive of Isreal. I give him credit where credit is due...

JDean, good points (to ponder as well)! Get ready for backlash, whether direct or indirect!

Shalom

I learned at a young age in hebrew school that the "glory" (if you will) and power of G-d are so awesome to be in the presence of that even to see his name written on paper is too much ...

i would like to inform of a couple of awesome websites:

towardtradition.org

there you will find a rabbi who guttman should/could emulate...

and

jews4fairness.org

progressive- i chose christ as i have previously written to you and did so because i believe in His Word that there is only one way to the Father...you write that you are not convinced of that and you also write that you are a christian....i believe anyone who claims to be a christian and claims there are other paths is therefore susbscribing to a new age cult of christianity that bends itself and the scriptures ...you know these people when you hear them say that "we are all G-d's children" when the truth is that we are all just His Creation...his children are those who obey the Father...

do not worship the Creation, worship the Creator...

Wormer's attack on the good Rabbi takes the cake.
There is still time for you to receive counseling for your anger. If being a conservative means having no compassion for those less fortunate, then you are the poster child for conservatism.

Out of curiosity, I visited Westover Church again today to see if any mention was made of Mr. Aronson's letter. None was made. I asked several people I met (who very warmly greeted me and asked what brought me to Westover) if they had seen the letter and what their reaction to it was. Absolutly no one had anything bad to say about Mr. Aronson or his comments on their church. All were concerned that he felt as he does, but none felt any ill will toward him for essentially slapping them in the face. I, instead, found "forgiveness."

I can't help but wonder what Rabbi Guttman would think of Mr. Aronson's slap at Westover Church? My bet is the good Rabbi, with all his wisdom and caring, would also feel it was out of line to name names to make a point.

I commend Westover Church for the attitude I found. I also hope Mr. Aronson finds what he's looking for. If he doesn't, I guess we'll all know it when we see his letter criticizing Temple Emmanuel.

A couple of points, Jew4...

I did not say there was another way to the Father. You are reading into what I wrote. I do believe that Jesus provided the way for all to enter into eternal life with the Father. It is through His death and resurrection that this was made available. I also believe there is nothing in the Bible about our ability to "chose Christ".

God is sovereign and thereby we are without ability to "chose" anything. It is by grace we are saved. I also believe that Jesus did not fail in His mission. He will reconcile the world unto himself as He promised so that God will be "all in all". Jesus' whole mission is to restore that which was lost. I also believe that "every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess" that Jesus is Lord.

You are free to believe in a God who would create a people only to send them to eternal torture. I wouldn't want to that kind of God as my neighbor much less the object of my worship. (And yes, I know all the arguements about how God gives us a choice...I grew up evangelical).

By my stand for Christian universalism, I realize you and others may question my Christianity. Again, it is by grace we are put in right relation with God...I think you'd agree with that. A belief in eternal hell is not a prerequisite for being a believer. To believe that is to hold that we are made right with God by correct knowledge, which is gnosticism.

You are right...worship the Creator not the creation. But take care of the creation cause that is what God has given us to do. To do so is to love without measure. That, unconditional Love, for the Creator and the creation is what we are called to do.

The Westminster cathecism says it best: Q: What is man's cheif end? A: To glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

Nothing more or less is required of a follower of Jesus.

Peace.

progressive, I believe that is a good response to many questions that may have been floating after both your post and that of jew4. I enjoy what I perceive to be a thoughtout response, rather than a "knee-jerk" reply.

Shalom

i am sorry because i do know you mean well and your beliefs and values are soemthing you have grown to be comfortable with, but everytime you write your 'well thought-out' responses, you make me more and absolutely confident that you are part of a new age christian cult which you have put a name to with your last post: christian universalism...

you do know enough about jesus to be dangerous to others...and you wiil be a poor witness to the lost and blind-to-the truth jews in the US...i can only pray that anyone whether jewish or non-believer who comes into contact with you is not deceived by your false teaching and false witness...i am sorry...i will also pray for you that your path will straighten and you will bring many non-believers to know that if they 'choose' to seek Him earnestly, that He will meet them as He did me...

Jews4..you have again repeated the claim that I am in a "new age Christian cult" and that I am a danger to others who might seek the truth (small "t"). I really hate you feel this way, but I will continue to spread the word of God's love and grace through God's Son, Jesus Christ...that is the only Truth (large "T") I know.

I certainly understand your point of view as I grew up believing as you do now. It was only later in life that I began to reflect on how hateful I had made God out to be. The God I had made for myself was nothing more than a mass murderer who would make Hitler look like an angel.

That is not the God of the Bible or of pre-Constinian Christianity. I could quote you tons of early Christian Fathers supportive of Christian Universalism. All the answers to the questions you might have, however, are found here: http://www.christian-universalism.com/

Given your Jewish heritage, might I suggest looking at the Jewish idea of the afterlife. Look especially at the Jewish understanding around the time of Jesus including the definition of Gehenna and Hades.

I agree with your idea of the glory of God as stated in your previous post. You said you learned that early in life. May I just point out that you learned this from the "scriptue-ignorant" Reform Jews you seem to dismiss. So, I suppose there was some Truth in the religious culture your growing up years.

Jews4...may God bless you and open your eyes to His unconditional Love for you and for all creation. May you not make an idol out of the "traditions of man" and what you have been taught by traditional church leadership. May you have the courage to research what I am talking about and may God, for you, become "all in all".

I also invite you to visit one of our Meetings. You'll be warmly welcomed:

www.quakerfinder.org

Peace!

"And when all my hopes in them [i.e., preachers, and "those called the most experienced people"] and in all men were gone, so that I had nothing outwardly to help me, nor could I tell what to do; then, oh then I heard a voice which said, "There is one, even Jesus Christ, that can speak to thy condition": and when I heard it, my heart did leap for joy. Then the Lord did let me see why there was none upon the earth that could speak to my condition, namely, that I might give Him all the glory; for all are concluded under sin, and shut up in unbelief, as I had been, that Jesus Christ might have the pre-eminence, who enlightens, and gives grace and faith and power. Thus when God doth work, who shall let it? And this I knew experientially. My desires after the Lord grew stronger, and zeal in the pure knowledge of God, and of Christ alone, without the help of any man, book, or writing. For though I read the Scriptures that spake of Christ and of God, yet I knew Him not, but by revelation, as He who hath the key did open, and as the Father of Life drew me to His Son by His Spirit.

I saw that Christ died for all men, and was a propitiation for all, and enlightened all men and women with His divine and saving light; and that none could be a true believer but who believed in it. I saw that the grace of God, which bringeth salvation, had appeared to all men, and that the manifestation of the Spirit of God was given to every man to profit withal. These things I did not see by the help of man, nor by the letter, though they are written in the letter, but I saw them in the light of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by His immediate spirit and power…"
--George Fox

Oh, and I did check out the websites you refered me to. Interesting that this guy is a Zionist too. In fact, he is much more of a Zionist than I have ever seen.

It is a shame that the very person who runs this "awesome" website will, according to your theology, burn in eternal hell. So, no matter what good works he may do on behalf of the Christian community, God will torture him throughout eternity just because he didn't "chose Christ", say a sinner's prayer or walk an aisle. Sad.

i learned to write "G-d" at Hebrew school, which is only taught by ORTHODOX rabbis...you seem to be so much like the sripturally ignorant reform jews who MUST be RIGHT about everything...

so you have been found incorrect on something- may i point out to you that there is no such thing as 'Hebrew School' in a reform temple (bar mitzvah and Torah study were only recently introduced to reform judaism because the liberal rabbis finally realized there was nothing remotely jewish to connect to...)the Hebrew used only very seldomly in a reform service is offered up to the congregation in phonetics...you can argue for the reform jews all you desire but at the end of the day reform judaism is no more than a cult of christianity, no better and no worse than your particular new age cult...

your posts are nothing but new age gibberish and red flag after red flag of christian cultism...
you dare to even suggest that i am making an idol?...you have manufactured in your mind a god who does not exist but only in your mind, who IS NOT the G-d of Abraham, and for that He will say to you "I never knew you"...as for rabbi lapin, those jews like me who know Jesus Christ, the jewish messiah, the Name above all Names (and a name the reform jews use gleefully in vain) know that lapin is 'in process'...maybe he will be one of the passionate 144,000...if he does not ever come to know his saviour, well i know he won't be in Abraham's bosom because He knows the Gospel-look who is on his board (Dobson, etc.) so look who is praying for him...you can too...

i would very much prefer to see you join his war against secular fundamentalism rather than you waste your many energies and new age wisdom on your current battle gainst cultural christianity...we need you to know who is the enemy behind the enemy and take up your shield and armor...

Dupid Dookin,

Then you be the poster child for the mentally challenged. Have you hugged a fire hydrant today ?

i wonder what Jesus makes of all this bickering among His people....j4Jews, provixen, darryl and myself (and others)all seem to think we have a corner on salvation....while my theology tends to align with j4Jesus, but i believe he is coming across very harshly.....i have had many discussions/lively discussions with both darryl and provixen on these blogs and have come to respect them as people and i certainly have different theology that they do, but it serves no productive purpose (as Christians) to critically judge a fellow believer. J4Jesus i also agree with you concerning the fate of man who rejects Jesus Christ ( the justice side of God )- but b/c provixen/darryl and perhaps others have a different belief on that subject....does that exclude them from salvation ??.....personally i think not. each of us here needs to emmulate the manner in which Jesus approached all people....first i believe He prodeeded with love, if that was rejected He would administer instruction and if that was rejected He would lay the cards on the tables and proclaim the price to be paid for rejecting Him...
i am certain of my salvation b/c it is a free gift and i believe God has chosen me.... i am not near as certain of ALL my theology concerning our wonderful God...while i have very strong convictions in my theology i hope i will always stop short and not trample the seed that has been planted in another follower.....i also believe the scripture as we know it today is God's word to His creation....but this relationship i have with Jesus hopefully will evolve beyond simple theology and i will be able to express to this dying world the free gift of salvation and Who provides it.may the peace that Jesus wished upon us prevail...........

Buz- 144,000 jews will be on the streets giving their lives to save any and all with the one and only absolute path to salvation...case closed.

your theology, my theology, his theology, her theology- all moot...G-d will do what He wants to do regardless of any of our theology...the instruction is clear and concise and so are the consequences...

christian new age cultism is something i choose to deal with in harsh words...i make no apologies...secular fundamentalism is taking our country and our world down the dumper, not cultural christianity, but i am certainly an enemy of both...i will deal with the bigger threat before the minor one...it is my calling...

j4Jesus,
"the instruction is clear and concise"..........
is it fair to say that this instruction you are referring to here is the word of God (i.e. bible) ?

Main Entry: the·ol·o·gy
Pronunciation: thE-'ä-l&-jE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -gies
Etymology: Middle English theologie, from Latin theologia, from Greek, from the- + -logia -logy
1 : the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world

if this instruction you are referring to, is in fact the bible (scriptures), then by default YOU are speaking of YOUR theology and YOUR understanding of YOUR study of God...i above all appreciate the efforts of studying God's word and truths....but.... when you state "the instruction is clear and concise" you are in fact stating that this is YOUR theology ( and nothing wrong with that ) but you come across as though only YOUR theology (or understanding of your study of God) is acceptable...i believe that is rather arrogant and prideful on your part. of all the wagons which have crossed these blogs on theology, i could easily jump on your wagon and ride it to glory....but during that journey i personally would endeavor to minister first in love and compassion and be a little less prone to judgement.....i am reminded of the manner in which Jesus treated the woman of samaria at the well...how easily could have condemned this woman, but rather chose to explain that he was the Living water and that she ought to drink. as i've said i tend to agree with your theology but what i see missing is your compassion (which Jesus exemplified).
"Buz- 144,000 jews will be on the streets giving their lives to save any and all with the one and only absolute path to salvation...case closed.".......... i agree 100%..........were you aware these 144k jews are unmarried virgins (just curious) ?

Buz,

We may disagree...but, dude, you rock! You have a big heart and that comes through in your posts.

By the way, seems as though there has been some wonderful interaction recently (before this letter was writen) between the pastor at Westover Church and Rabbi Guttman. Isn't that ironic?

And, I apologize for judging Westover and evangelicals with a broad stroke. There are many fine examples of evangelical Christians helping others. I was mistaken.

Jews4 wrote: "i would very much prefer to see you join his war against secular fundamentalism rather than you waste your many energies and new age wisdom on your current battle gainst cultural christianity...we need you to know who is the enemy behind the enemy and take up your shield and armor..."

I don't believe that persecution of Christians will come from secular fundamentalists. I believe, as Revelation teaches, that the Beast and Anti-christ will be seen as religiously pious, not secular. He will be so because "even the elect will be decieved."

Peace!

"What can wash away my sin? NOTHING but the BLOOD of Jesus."

Jews4 wrote: "so you have been found incorrect on something- "

Wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last.

progressivexian,
i have seen a profound change in your posts and i thank God that you let Jesus reign in your heart. like you, i've been wrong many time and just hang around and i'll be wrong again...but i've never been afraid to admit my mistakes. behind J4Jesus tough posts, i really sense someone who is passionate about His savior...i remember when i was a new and young believer, how strong language i would use to try to convince those i loved that they needed Jesus in their life, i possibly scared them away from the kingdom....in retrospect i can just imagine Jesus looking down on me and saying 'dude take a chill pill' and smiling upon my often misdirected and overbearing zealousness (somewhat like peter was!). so if we continue to minister to j4Jesus (& others)in love and commpassion, he (they) will begin to see that even those who do not agree with this personal theology can still be civil and compassionate. i think we've all come a long way in a short time and i expect even better things (of us all) in the future.....peace .......

Buz- the only in common 'virtue' of the 144,000 is that they REFUSE to take the mark of the beast...(and then somehow they are sealed and protected)...

if your information is true,OMG, we are a long long way from the end of times!! i cant even fathom the thought of 144,000 straight unmarried virgin jews in our lifetime much less 1000 years from now!!! (can you imagine the loss of income for the jewish attorneys who draw up the pre-nup agreements standard in a jewish marriage, whether to a jewess or a gentile?)

progressive- in these times it is clear that the enemy in the US is the secular fundamentalist...if you can turn your attention to what is true for right now and join the battle, great...you can deal with the Beast when he is unmasked like the 144,000 will do AND DEFY HIM and his MARK...live up to your nickname and be PROGRESSIVE and make your MARK NOW...get back on the right path, make some PROGRESS. WE NEED YOU!!!

(buz- compassion through encouragment, that is the best i can do when faced with the challenge of new age christian cultism, but I WILL continue to DEFY THE BEAST who deceives these new-agers)...

Jews4 wrote: "if your information is true,OMG, we are a long long way from the end of times!! i cant even fathom the thought of 144,000 straight unmarried virgin jews in our lifetime much less 1000 years from now!!! "

When I think about my Jewish friends daughters, I am saddened that people actually say this stuff. How is this glorifing to God? What would a Jewish seeker think of Christians from this statement?

Perhaps I am overreacting. But that statement is one of the most anti-semitic statements I have heard in a long time.

If this is an example of your kind of Christianity, I don't want anything to do with it.

Buz, maybe I am disappointing you here with my strong language, but this really makes me physically nauseated.

J4Jesus,
"if your information is true,OMG, we are a long long way from the end of times!!"..............
read on a little further in the revelation (chptr.14:1-5) and you decide if these 144,000 are virgins and undefiled with women (let me know your take on these passages). it really isn't MY information...it is the Word of God. and i appreciate your sense of jewish humor...indeed the attorney will loose some income (lol).
apparently you are not a pretrib. believers, i gleen that from your comment to pvixen "...you can deal with the Beast when he is unmasked like the 144,000 will do AND DEFY HIM and his MARK", it sounds as though you are assuming the church will be caught up in the tribulation....and yes i am fairly aware of post,pre, current and a millenialism points of view...it just happens that i am a pretrib believers so i don't believe church saints will be in the position to deal with the beast along with the 144k jewish witnesses ( but that is my understanding and opinion ).
imo believers in the U.S. face more than just secular fundamentalism as the most potent threat.....to me the secular threat would most likely affect those who profess Christ as Lord but probably are still lost and subsceptible to what the world thinks and says.... apathy and apostasy (which would likely and eventually become secular pressures) within the body of Christ could possibly be a more likely enemy, imo.
i encourage you to continue to work on that compassion (not to be misunderstood as compromising
your faith or beliefs)so that your testimony of your savior can be heard through the love with which you mete it out ....grace and peace.......

progressive,
i took his statement as tonque in cheek, but his underlying sentiment certainly might reflect some hostilities.....
you didn't disappoint one bit...to me there is a big difference in attacking someone based on pure emotion and making a direct statement in response to comments made by others.
let us all strive to be found doing His work when He returns....that would please Him !!...even so come Lord Jesus...Amen !!

Buz- i believe she reacted thinking (incorrectly again! she said it woudn't be the last time!)that the 144,000 are females (or partly so)... please let her know the truth...

progress- if your gentile son should fall in love with one of your aforementioned jewish friends' daughters (whether she loves him in return or not)those will become your former jewish friends because they will drop you and your son in a new york minute (no hostility intended for the geography containing the largest jewish population in the world, ok so maybe they will drop you more politely, this is the South)....

buz- btw, thank you for recognizing the seinfeld in me!!

bottom line progress- way back when you made the statement that you are not convinced that the Jews would be condemned in judgement to Hell...i am a Jewish Believer....think about your stupid statement of which there is no evidence for and only evidence of (i.e., the 144,000)....help me buz- explain to her how that statement offends my acceptance (and the 144,000 and every other Jewish Believer) of Jesus Christ as the Jewish Messiah...

why should I bother accepting Him if there is another way to receive the reward from my Abba in Heaven?????????????????????...why should i be the scourge of my jewish family and friends if i didnt have to be?....why do i bother with the Jews and with you also encouraging you to put yourselves on the correct path??????????

help me buz...

gentlemen.......
in this corner is j4jJesus (i am assuming a male) and in this corner is progressivexian (i am assuming a male)...soooooooo....
as i read pvixen response to you concerning your tonque in cheek comment...he is saying that he is disappointed that a converted jew (you) would make comments that are derogatory toward other jews...and that he has friends that are jewish and thinks your comments about the ability to find 144k jews who are straight and virgin are very anti semitic and he wonders how your statement would glorify God....from my experience with pvixen, he is well versed in scripture and doen't need me to explain to or defend him...he is more than capable....and i believe he is a lover of Christ just as we are....
here is my suggestion to all of us....let us imagine we are all in God's big sand box, we're just playing and having fun and if we happen to mess up the others sandcastle...well instead of getting mad and getting even....we help the other reconstruct their sandcastle....understanding who's sandbox we are playing in !!
Christianity is NOT a religion.....it IS a relationship....let's try to relate not only with Jesus but with each other...and see where that takes us !! it could be good !!! :-)

Jews4...does your family give you a hard time because you converted?

I didn't take you statement in humor. I really thought you were being serious. I guess I just saw it not only as anti-semitic but also quite vulgar. Using loaded words like "stupid", "new age cult", etc. are not something I expect any Christian to say. Perhaps you are from a culture where that was okay. I'm a Southern boy born and bred, so our approach to others is a bit more gentle...usually.

If indeed your family has given you a hard time because of your conversion, I am beginning to understand a little better where you are coming from.

By the way, buz, Jews4 and I probably agree on Christians going through tribulation. However, that is one area I wouldn't debate much cause I just don't know for sure. I do know that Christians will always be persecuted if they are doing God's will. History is a witness to that fact.

Ya'll have a good night.

i believe Jesus used harsh words with the jews/pharisees...he could have just as easily substituted 'stupid' or 'cultist' for 'hippocrits'...it had nothing to do with his 'culture' or even his 'theology'...he just spoke in simple truth, and then in parables for those jews who were a little more tender hearted...

i am only 'trying to come from' the same place as our Messiah...while maybe his family wasnt as harsh on him as mine (not to mention any other jews who know one is a jew for jesus), i concur that i am angered easily by secular/atheistic jews and those like you who claim G-d has another way out for them even though they despise His name and anyone who claims it...

Guttman has no other motives upon which to use "WJWD" when he tries to make his public cases against Evangelicals and evangelizing other than disdain and pride...and fear of the truth.

p.s. i believe 1000% we are taken up before the tribulation

First, why do people shorten "progressivexian" to "pvixen?" That is both weird and funny. It's not p-"vixen." A "vixen" is "a malicious fierce-tempered woman." I don't think progressivexian is saying he/she is a "progressive malicious fierce-tempered woman." How odd that would be, huh?

I think he/she means "progressive Christian." The "X" stands for Christ, like in "Xmas." It's just disturbing to think of some vixenish chick writing the stuff p-XIAN writes. ;)

Now, either I had a real life talk with the progessive one yesterday, or there really is a "church" with those beliefs, because at least one person was saying the exact same things to me. Like word for word. Hmmm...

i believe i am responsible for shortening progressivexian to pvixen, i certainly never intended then or now to show any disrespect ( i actually like progressivexian and his heart ) - so progressive if i have offended you please let me know......basically you can call ME anything...just don't call me later for dinner ( attempt @ humor, lol ).

Westover church has a lot going for it from the outward appearance but I have some warning for those who would listen to what I have to say. Be very cautious of the "friendly welcomes" and the appearance of Christ-centered messages. I was a member there a few years ago, working in various ministries and I ran into a host of un-Christlike attitudes and even judgement based on believe it or not, what kind of income I had, the fact I didn't have a four year degree and what kind of home I lived in. Just be cautious and above all PRAY about your decision to worship or join there.
Please don't say that I'm "harsh" or "judgmental" because this is what I experienced there. I have since moved on but from time to time have heard of others with the same kind of story as mine. I even have close friends that once when there who have mentioned similiar events