Mr. Johnson, you are so right.

The current administration is intoxicated with power and their followers do not see how corrupt that is. When will a "Howard Baker type" rise up from the GOP and renounce the secrecy and the manipulation that clouds this group. Hopefully, it will be Arlen Specter, a member of the Warren Commission and a conservative without the religious baggage. We shall see.
Again, great editorial.

"Some will object to the comparison, but tyranny does not begin with the wholesale slaughter of 6 million people. It begins with creeping violations of the law and the abridgment of human rights. It begins with imprisonment and torture of people who happen to have the wrong name, wrong religion or wrong skin color. All of these acts are predicated on fear."

I think maybe the comparison is strained here. True, the German Nazis started out doing similar things, but I seriously doubt they were motivated by fear. They started out based on hatred and a thirst for revenge for their hardships suffered after WW I.

Now, it is obviously a very easy thing to slide from fear into hatred, and not a few in positions of power appear to have made the jump, but there is still some reason to hope we won't end up being the next Germany. How long we can hold out that hope, or whether it'll work out OK are open questions.

Very good letter.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Not defending the practice...just pointing out that this is nothing new. Has gone on at least since Roosevelt.

Excellent point cutawad. Just proves the point that these people so "fearful" of losing their liberty just hate Bush. I doubt they were writing op-eds so voraciously when Clinton was doing the same thing. They have no interest in discussing the facts or debating the value or lack there of in such practices. They only want to bitch about Bush. Ignorance condemns, absolute ignorance condemns absolutely. LOL!

Mr. Johnson makes a valid ascertation with sound validity. Far too often, LTE writer's strive for this with no success. I applaud Mr. Johnson on having done so!

I am still amazed at how Bill Clinton figures into what the current administration is doing. The Clinton administration can be "what if'd" to death. However, that is still no reason to justify what is currently taking place. If the Clinton administration is guilty of something, bring charges and then let the courts settle the matter.

However, I am far more concerned presently with the violation of the Constitution by the current occupant of the People's House!

Shalom

"They have no interest in discussing the facts or debating the value or lack there of in such practices."

Bring in on, Burcham.

Again, Clinton is brought back into the discussion.

LOL, you guys must really like Clinton (just afraid to admit it)

Funny how Clinton is always brought up when there's a Bush shortcoming. LOL!

For you Clinton apologists, the reason he keeps coming up is that he was doing no different than our President is now, as far as wiretaps and so-called "domestic spying" are concerned. This has nothing to do with anything that he did being right or wrong.

The fact is that this story (or lack thereof) was released by the biggest liberal newspaper in this country, and all you liberal lap dogs have followed it exactly where the New York Times wanted you to, writing letters to the editor with mock fear of "tyranny" and "imprisonment" and "torture."

Now you pretend to be so concerned about this "invasion of privacy" because you hate this President so much. Why weren't you this concerned about it when Clinton was doing it? Or when Daddy Bush did it? Or when Reagan or Carter did it?

Ezekiel,

Could you point me to a mainstream media source that shows that Carter, Bush I and/or Clinton spied on American civilians? Are you saying that the spying done by Bush II was within the bounds of the law?

Even if Carter, et. al. spied on the American people (and I'm not convinced any of the afore mentioned presidents did), can you not see the danger in this action?

Certainly you are aware of the conservatives who have been critical of this abuse of power, are you not? It would seem that this action would NEVER be done by a conservative or a liberal, but only by a government who was inching very close to facism.

Congrats to the Editors. They have one Counterpoint and two letters bashing Bush, today on this " privacy " issue. Another N & R attempt at " balance " HA HA HA !

And off course the usual trolls ( Brian Harper, JDR , Darryl, Dumbon Deeken, etcall suffering from Bush Derangement Syndrome) have chimed in. Do you people have a life ? What is it that you don't undderstand about the responsibilities of the Commander -In-Chief. Only an inept buffon would not be trying to listen in on communications between people talking to terrorists whose goal it is to kill you stoopid idiots who are sooooooo absolutist about this issue. Such a President should be removed from office for not doing his level best " by all available means " to protect this country. I noted with interest that the pro-terrorist letters/Counterpoint all drag out the tried Hitler/Goering/fascist boogey man. Can you say Godwin's law. Jerks !

Wormer,
You seem to be so far up the rectum of the Republican Party you cannot differeniate between fact and fantasy.

Why does another's thoughts threaten you so much? As an American, I am appalled at how the current administration has remained so steadfastly arrogant while the country has become over 60% unimpressed with the job it is doing. Today's Washington Post has a story on how the administration is shifting (again) its strategy. Seems the story about Bush in the bubble caught some handlers off guard and they are rushing to see that the President does not look so out of touch anymore. "A journey of a thousand miles begins with one step" says the old proverb, so I am hopeful the administration will shake off its arrogance and begin to chart a course worthy of support. It's time to govern from the middle!

"What is it that you don't undderstand (sic) about the responsibilities of the Commander -In-Chief(?)"

Yo. Last time I looked at the official oath of office for the President, one of his top responsibilities is to "protect and defend the Constitution..." Surely, you don't think that's asking too much of any C-in-C. And IF he failed to live up to that responsibility, wouldn't you agree that he needs to face the consequences of that failure?

"Some will object to the comparison, but tyranny does not begin with the wholesale slaughter of 6 million people. It begins with creeping violations of the law and the abridgment of human rights. It begins with imprisonment and torture of people who happen to have the wrong name, wrong religion or wrong skin color. All of these acts are predicated on fear."

Yeah I object to the comparison because it is classic playbook fearmongering. The author and some of you guys (you know who you are) act like Bush is going to take over the country, ban elections in '08, and impose tyranny. How lame can you get? Bush will be gone in three years, period. And you guys who compare Bush to Hitler on an almost daily basis get your panties in a wad when someone brings up slick Willie. Sheeeshhh!!

As for imprisonment of people with the wrong name & skin color, check out what FDR did to American citizens of Japanese descent. Is Bush rounding up tens of thousands of Muslims who are US citizens & throwing them in jail?

But of course this is typical, no positive message just doom & gloom with some scare tactics thrown in for good measure.

Burcham, the quote is about "absolute power," not ignorance. It is in reference to those who are in power and how they abuse their positions in order to better themselves or a few. Seems appropriate to the conversation if you use the correct quote in reference to those who hold the power now.

Wormer, you need to calm down on the personal attacks. It makes your points disappear because you are responding with the same ignorance of which you accuse others.

Funny how the letter writer wrote of tyranny's use of fear to control the masses and Dan speaks of fear of tyranny used by liberals. Pot, "Hey Kettle, your black!"

Now let me see if I can grasp the points of this argument. 1) Bush used domestic spying, 2) domestic spying has been around for years, 3) claims are made that past presidents have used domestic spying, 4) domestic spying on American citizens without a warrant is wrong, 5) domestic spying on someone singled out as a possible threat is okay.

So, my take on this is that presidents have been able to spy on private citizens without warrants. Some previous ones may have used it, but there is no proof. The current president has used it. It would seem that domestic spying is bad......sometimes. I guess it depends on who did it to whom and who you vote for that determines the outcome of this argument.

Progressive – I do not think that any of these Presidents personally spied on American citizens. The NSA is the agency that was doing the spying, and you’d have to be a fool to believe that this hasn’t been going on for the last fifty years, since the NSA was created in 1952. Which lends credibility to my point that the only reason this is a story now is because the big boys of the media are searching for another story that you gullible liberals will believe. You already compare Bush to Hitler at each turn, so why not keep it coming?

The NSA is the government agency of more than 30,000 employees. It was reformed in the 1970s because of uncontrolled monitoring of United States citizens. There was a special court set up (the FISA court) that each case for domestic wiretaps is supposed be approved by. As with many of our government operations, this process was bogged down by red tape. President Bush authorized wire taps (very much within the law written in the 1970s) in certain cases of suspected Al-Qaeda activity, all in hopes of speeding up the process and bypassing all of the red tape. In the words of the President: "Al Qaeda was not a conventional enemy," Bush said. "This new threat required us to think and act differently."

In 2002, when the president made his decision, there was BIPARTISAN (read this again, liberals) frustration with the slowness of the bureaucracy involved in obtaining warrants from the the FISA court. The 9-11 Commission raised questions in their report about whether the court can deal with cases in the war on terror.

Case in point: look no further than the case of Coleen Rowley, the FBI agent who ran up against a number roadblocks in her effort to secure a FISA warrant in the case of Zacarias Moussaoui. Investigators wanted to study the contents of Moussaoui's laptop computer, but the FBI encountered many problems in obtaining a timely warrant from the FISA court. In a true statement of bureaucracy at it’s best, FBI agents became so aggravated that they considered flying Moussaoui to France, where his computer could be examined.

I want to ask any of you whining about civil liberties and about privacy invasion if you have been affected by this. Are you mad about the privacy invasion of suspected Al Qaeda operatives? Conventional methods do not apply any more, and the sooner you realize that the better. I could care less if the NSA wiretaps my phone or monitors my internet activity, because I’m not doing anything illegal. If this type of activity stops the next 9-11, it doesn’t matter to me if it happens, regardless of who the President is or what political party is in control of Congress.

And don’t give me that tyranny crap about this administration. The bottom line is that we live in a democracy. If you don’t like the winning team, then vote them out and vote your team in.

Dan, I see the Bush Adm. as the biggest abusers of fear tactics.

Some suicidal terrorists, most from SAUDI ARABIA, attacked the USA...we have to stop them, so let's attack IRAQ, hunt them down and kill them on their soil. Those terrorists are dead already. Never made sense to me, still doesn't.

You seem to be a very intelligent person. Do you really believe all the things you write? Do you really believe Bush has done a great job these last 5 years?

If you study US history, you will find that many leaders have mistreated Americans on American soil. The Cherokee Indians, the Etowa Indians, the Irish, the blacks, just to name a few. It happened, it was wrong. Let's try to be sure that we have moved past that.

First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Communists and I did not speak out because I was not a Communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak out for me.

Rev. Martin Niemoller

1 - It's been stated there were 19,000 NSA wire tap requests over the past 25 years, only 5 were denied. Clearly some were done by other Pres's

2 - Although it was asked for, I've not yet seen the credible link stating ADDITIONAL and Illegal wire taps (without FISA Permission) were done by previous admin's.

3 - There is a 15 day -after the fact grace period for permission. I don't know what happens if you do the tap first and are denied permission later.

4 - If the current Pres was having trouble getting through "The Stack", he could easily have asked for an extension. He also should have said that was his reason - but The President clearly and repeatedly stated he is simply above the law.

If Clinton had stated that, what would your reaction be - because it should be the same.

Even scarier - suppose we let Bush slide - and decide form now on the Pres' can do what ever he damm well pleases - what cha gonna do if by some fluke Hilary gets elected? How you gonna react then?

What part of all this do you not understand?

OK - let's talk about Coleen Rowley. What's your point?

First, she is clearly a great agent. She should have gotten that Metal of Freedom award long before Tenet and those other Cronies.

Second - In August of '01 she caught a kingpin terrorists but was stymied by asshole bureaucrats - probably the same ones that were in the Cabinet meeting nodding in unison when the famous "OSAMA IS PLANNING TO DRIVE AIRPLANES INTO AN AMERICAN SKYSCRAPER" memo was ignored.

Third - The Coleen Rowley Capture was PRE 9-11. Even the infamous Project For A New American Century was not concerned about OSAMA DRIVING AIRPLANES INTO AN AMERICAN SKYSCRAPER until 09-20. (They were making noise about regime change in Iraq dating back to 1998, however).

JD - as I stated in my previous post, if wiretapping makes this country safer, I'm all for it, REGARDLESS OF WHO THE PRESIDENT IS OR WHAT POLITICAL PARTY CONTROLS THE WHITE HOUSE. If Bill Clinton had ordered wiretaps on possible terror suspects (and maybe he did), I could care less. If Hillary is the next President, and she thinks wiretaps are necessary to gain information on possible terror suspects, then you won't hear me make a peep about it.

Schmoe, I stand by that this is classic fearmongering. We heard for decades from Dems that Repubs were going to take away Social Security from seniors. Didn't happen. In fact now they are getting drug benefits to boot. We heard that Reagan was going to start WWIII with the Soviets. Didn't happen. The Berlin Wall came crashing down thanks to him and Maggie Thatcher. We heard the ad in the 2000 election depicting the horrible dragging death of a black man James Byrd in TX that electing George Bush would increase murders of blacks. Didn't happen. The scumbags who killed Byrd got the death penalty & rightfully so. Bush has put more blacks in positions of power than any other president in history. More blacks are switching to the Republican party as they realize Dems want to keep them on the govt. gravy train and take their votes for granted. We hear from Dean that we can't win in Iraq. Hasn't happened yet, but a 70% election turnout sure indicated the Iraqis like the idea of democracy.

Now we hear that Bush is wiretapping and everyone's civil liberties are in grave danger. If someone taps my phone they will be awfully bored to listen to my wife telling me about what the kids did today.

Carol, no president is perfect. But in the last five years we have gone through a major terrorist attack, two wars, and umpteen hurricanes. The economy is growing, home ownership is at all time highs (including for blacks), interest rates are stable, the stock market is growing albeit slowly, and Ken Lay will probably be in prison soon. Yeah life isn't perfect because it never will be regardless of who is in office. They are human and make mistakes like the rest of us.

Off subject, but has anyone noticed that Florida has had 8 major hurricanes in the last 2 years, yet there is practically ZERO press coverage about recovery in FL? Then we get one hurricane in New Orleans, albeit a very bad one, and the press focused 24/7 on Katrina? Why? Because FL is run by a Republican governor who got things done in response to these storms. LA is run by a Democratic governor and New Orleans a Democratic mayor who couldn't handle the storm aftermath and blame it all on the Feds. Blame it on Bush of course.

Gotta go to the beach for the weekend, little or no Internet access. So Happy New Year to all and look forward to '06. No more doom and gloom now!!

Colleen Rowley - Time Person of the Year, worked for the F.B.I., retired "because she could", and started to speak out.

COLLEEN ROWLEY (from Camp Casey, an interview with Amy Goodman):

"I actually spoke out also a couple of weeks before the Iraq war was launched, and in that case, I was essentially issuing a warning that launching an attack on Iraq would prove counterproductive to the counterterrorism efforts. So, that's a continuing question that needs to be asked and answered, actually, from the people who are waging the war in Iraq is, “How is this making us safer?”

"[T]he PATRIOT Act is a mixed bag. There's 160 different provisions … the fallacy here is that any Homeland Security or F.B.I. even using aggressive investigative measures can protect the United States if we literally ignore all of the other things that the 9/11 Commission recommended, which is what we would do to decrease the threat itself. [T]he war in Iraq has increased or quadrupled the number of significant terrorist attacks in the world, and so, you know, it's delusional to think that the F.B.I. and Homeland Security, no matter how good -- it will be impossible to prevent.

"I do have a certain amount of residual pride [in the F.B.I.]. For instance, at Guantanamo, … the emails … from people who were speaking out about … torture or close to torture, abuse, at least, abusive situations .. [were] the F.B.I. And I take a little credit, because our 56 field offices had people like me giving legal training on Constitutional rights and ethics training. And I think later on that somewhat paid off, and there were many F.B.I. agents who were speaking out a little bit.

"I came [to Camp Casey] as moral support for our Minnesota State Senator, Becky Lourey, and I thought that this would be a very therapeutic thing for her and Cindy Sheehan to meet each other, and so that's my main reason here, just in the background and giving moral support to her."

Ezekiel wrote: "And don’t give me that tyranny crap about this administration. The bottom line is that we live in a democracy. If you don’t like the winning team, then vote them out and vote your team in."

George W. was voted out in 2000 yet the Supreme Court voted Bush in. Then in 2004, Diebold and company "delivered Ohio for Bush" just as it promised.

At any rate, spying on Americans is illegal. You can't break the law just because you are the party in power. Bush is the President...and the "buck stops there". Any elected official who breaks the law should be put on trial just as any other American who breaks the law...agreed?

And I don't think I've compared Bush to Hitler. I have concluded that we are well on our way to a facist state. And don't go thinking I'm a "liberal Democrat". I am Unaffiliated and am just as critical of the Democratic party when they screw up as I am of the Republicans. Putting oneself above the law seems to be a bi-partisan issue these days.

To many of you:

Bull Crap!!! What do you have to hid that you are so afraid of some government security agency PEEKING! For gosh sake, they cannot read or listen to every word! I doubt if the NSA is keying on words like "picked nose", looked at girlie magazine", "wrecked mothers car"! They might be interested if you sent a million dollars to egypt! I would want them to be!

American Citizen is a joke! Many of us are not willing to stand up and be americans without qualifications! We have african american, chinese americans, japenese americans,and the list is endless! Many of those same peoples, Muslim being the current most notable group who have members who just plain want to destroy mankind! Madrid, England, Phillipines and others confirm it is wide spread!

Some of us are just plain american and I am in that group! I am very glad that someone is monitoring our airways and just as sorry that the news media thinks it must expose every security measure put in place to protect us!

You guys are constant complainers, seemingly have a monopoly on this website and are just plain desconstructionists! Perhaps you should consider creating your own priviate blog and you can fight among yourselves! I see very few new faces commenting! I would like to see others "faces"!

I have nothing to hide and If I did, I sure would not put it on the internet or in a phone conversation or a blog!

Washington leaks like a sieve and I do not blame the President for keeping those in the know to a very few! I also have no problems with all traffic leaving the borders of the US being monitored-regardless of political affilication! Those who do have a problem can take other measures to communicate or can leave the US!

Way to go Shippy. Thanks for your comment. These trolls put out thre same BS day after day. For all I know they may be cyber robots.. stuck on stupid !

Shippy and wormer,

You can bet we are not trolls. We are American citizens (with no qualifiers) just like you all. As a good citizen, it is my right, my responsibility, to question my government when I feel they are in error. That is what democracy is all about. I am thankful to live in a free Country where I can question my government. What I see happening now is putting that liberty at risk.

Recent news suggests that even organizatons such as the Quakers have been monitored by the government via infiltration of the organization. That, my friends, should be a big red (no pun intended) flag to all of us...conservative, liberal, moderate, Republican, Democrat...all of us. With all due respect, I would encourage you to study the history of facism and compare that to what is currently happening in our Country. Things are beginning to get scary.

Martin Niemoller said it best:

"They first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic. Then they came for me -- and by that time there was nobody left to speak up."

"What do you have to hid that you are so afraid of some government security agency PEEKING!"

That's not the point. The point is that we are supposed to be a people governed by laws... a set of rules that applies to everyone. Either we are that, or we aren't. If we aren't, then we have lost the quality that gave us the "moral high ground" over lawless regimes like Saddam's.

If we can't follow our own rules, how can we have the gall to even ask Saddam, or any other despot for that matter, to follow any set of rules?

To Transgenderprogressive,

Your President has a responsibiltiy under the Constitutuion, Article II, Sec. 1 to protect your sorry ass as well as the rest of us Americans. And while you are at it read Federalist #64. You are lucky John Kerry and algore LOST. Get over it and be thankful for your undeserved blessings.. dork !

Wow, I must have hit a nerve. However, I love you too, Wormer :-).

"14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse them. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice, weep with those who weep. 16 Live in harmony with one another; do not be haughty, but associate with the lowly; never be conceited. 17 Repay no one evil for evil, but take thought for what is noble in the sight of all. 18 If possible, so far as it depends upon you, live peaceably with all. 19 Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God; for it is written, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord." 20 No, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink; for in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

-Romans 12:14-21

http://cust.idl.net.au/fold/teach/JesusMoney/WWFJD.html

www.sojo.net

Wormer, I still can't see your points through your taunts and derision. Take a cue from Dan. I don't always agree with Dan, but he makes his points without resorting to personal attacks. Note his response to one of my posts. He makes his point without derogative comment. Try it and you may find that people will give your ideas and you more respect. You reap what you sow.

Wormer is definitely in need of love and you picked a beautiful verse for him/her to read.

First rule in the IBM and AT%T sales schools is that you can never argue with ignorance.

Joe,

We would all do well to heed your advise. I need that reminder as well from time to time.

Thanks!

"What do you have to hid that you are so afraid of some government security agency PEEKING!"

Answer: My lack of fashion sense, my assorted socks with holes (few matching) and the Texas-sized dust bunnies (complete with tons of pet hair) running up and down my hallway. I would be appauled for any government agency to observe these things about me.

Sorry...just thought the board needed a bit of (bad) humor.

progressivexian....do you REALLY expect the MSM to provide information on Democrats Presidents spying on Americans?

....you ARE speaking in jest, are you not?......and you MUST know there is plenty of information form other sources to verify these facts, do you not?

...here's a few....

http://www.libertypost.org/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=122188

http://nationalreview.com/york/york200512200946.asp

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/004122.htm

Interesting links, abbub. One common thread:

"In the end, Congress placed the searches under the FISA court, but the Clinton administration did not back down from its contention that the president had the authority to act when necessary."

So Clinton was wrong, and if Bush follows in Clinton's tracks, then two wrongs make it right.

Now I understand. Thanks for the clarity.

JDR,
I agree with you on many things, but I am concerned whenever there is wholesale wiretapping going on unchecked. At first we were told it was limited, and then the story came out about how "We cast a wide net" and then it has been a slippery slope ever since. We all want to be safe in our own country, but spying on a Quaker meeting house? We should hold our leaders accountable, not give them blank checks.

there was sarcasm in that clarity of mine, Double D

It is gratifying to see the breadth of discussion my LTE prompted. I was out of town over the holidays and was not able to join in the discussion. I feel it necessary to say that a number of readers missed the point. Without trying to guess at their motivations I will simply make the following statements:

Spying alone is not the issue. Rather, spying without checks and balances.

Bush is not the issue. But rather preventing subversion of our laws and principles so that government, regardless of who's in charge, cannot act without the consent of the governed.

And finally, the best defense for democracy is an ever vigilant and skeptical electorate.

David Johnson