"Oliver North speech here all about money"

Fundraiser, money. Get the connection?

Scouting is supposed to be about more than money, even at fundraising time.

The line that any speaker would be controversial is so lame as to beggar belief. This guy is not just anyone. He's making some people uncomfortable with an organization they love, and one that is by law and spirit supposed to be apolitical.

So when people want to argue in favor of North, it's really a moot point. The fact that the argument is necessary shows he was the wrong choice.

Thank you, Ed Cone!

The fact Oliver North thought he was above the law when he broke it, makes him the antithesis of a Boy Scout.

And to you right wing nut cranks, he is a demagogue whose actions forever tainted the Reagan administration.

"Scouting is supposed to be about more than money, even at fundraising time."

I know a lot of folks who would like to think that, but reality has a way of knocking us about at times. After going to the expense of building their huge new headquarters, if the council hadn't been all about money before, they certainly appear to be that way now. It's sad, but there's not a whole lot you can do, other than pull out and let them know you won't be back until they come more in line with their stated principles.

I'm curious as to who could have been a less controversial figure and still pull the kind of contributions that North does.

Anyone?...........Bueller?...............

Ed how about if they had invited Ward Churchhill. Perhaps he would be more in line with your thinking.

Deacon:

"Dan,
Do you just have contempt for anyone with different points of view or are you just an as_hole all the time?"

Deacon: "....I will refrain from such conspicuous disregard for others."

Posted by: DemonDeacon at February 28, 2006 06:34 PM in The Fear of Reprisals Invites Self Censorship LTE

"And to you right wing nut cranks...."

Posted by: DemonDeacon at March 1, 2006 08:48 AM

Looks like you STILL aren't refraining from conspicuous disregard for others.

Pot meet kettle.

MrProduce, I guess you are trying to be funny, but what have you really added the conversation?

Churchill's views are vile. Of course he would be an unacceptable speaker. Having a problem with Ollie North as a Boy Scout fundraiser doesn't make a person some sort of hate-mongering leftist. What an odd projection to make.

Dan,
I can take it. My point is leave Yvonne alone with your silly, misogynistic comments.
*************************************
As for the Scouts, why not get David Gergin, who is a trustee of the new Elon Law School? Why not an astronaunt? Why not Joey Cheek?
If they wanted a partisan like North, surely they'd love Jesse Jackson? Why not use some creativity and stage a "Firing Line" type show for War Memorial Auditorium featuring UNC President Erskine Bowles and Senator Richard Burr. Both could participate in a friendly debate, knowing it is a fundraiser.

Anything is better than having a criminal address a Boy Scout group!

"David Gergin"

ROTFLOL! DD, this is a FUNDRAISER! Gergen is tainted with most recently being associated as an adivsor to Bill Clinton.

That destroys his credibility and attraction with us wingnuts. That leaves your side of the political spectrum to provide the funds for the Scouts.

And a good portion of your folks despise the Scouts for their stance on homosexuality, I don't see them forking out $$ to hear a middle-of-the-road with his left-turn blinker on republican.

The Boy Scout leadership isn't stupid. They know North is a cash cow and all this brewhaha is nothing more than the whine of the week, soon to be forgotten.

End result a pocket full of cash and no damage to the BSA.

Ed I am surprised at your shock! I mean just because he has made "one or two real off the wall comments" doesn't make him all bad now does it? After all he expounds some of the same views on this administration and this country that you seem to hold . Why hold just one or two of his errant misques against him?

MrProduce, again I can only assume you are joking, but there is an important point hidden in your bilious remarks.

Ward Churchill, an obscure academic, made some hateful remarks about the people who died on 9/11, which earned him 15 minutes of fame.

Why would you think that anyone who has problems with North as a Scout speaker, or who criticizes this administration, shares those ridiculous views, or has any interest in or sympathy for this man?

Are those really the only choices?

Of course they aren't.

Yet this seems to be the reflexive response in these comments much of the time -- issues are not considered, complexity is not allowed, everything is boiled down to ridiculous parallels like the ones you propose.

As for Gergen, I don't think he's a very big draw, or a dynamic speaker. Richard Burr or Elizabeth Dole would be better. Joey Cheek, next year, for sure.

Hugh,
Once again, you show your ignorance.
Pull up people Gergen has advised, as it will, obviously, surprise YOU.
Go back to supporting your hero.

Ed,
Do you see a Royce Reynolds connection here? Maybe Royce paid for North's appearance?

DD, I'm well aware of Gergen's past. You obviously don't understand the term "It's not what you've done, it's what you done lately that counts".

It's ok, I mark it up to your immaturity, which you'll outgrow one day.

Careful, Produce. Ed will post an entry in his blog accusing you of "projecting".

Hugh,
You add nothing to the conversation. Go back to your Ann Coulter books on tape.

Oh, and once again, you don't even know who Gergin has worked for LATELY.

DD:

Pot, meet kettle.

I agree that Ollie North is a terrible person to invite for a boy scouts fundraiser just on principle alone. I think it sends the wrong message.

My experience with my son in the boy scouts is that the organization is apolitical. It also does not favor one religion over another but respects all faiths.

Although the speaker is a bad choice, I still hope the money will be used for a good purpose. It's a shame that such a fine organization has to result to this level to raise money for its activities. Maybe that says more about us than them.

Ed,

Unusual for you to swim with us bottom feeders. What gives?

Deacon: "My point is leave Yvonne alone with your silly, misogynistic comments."

Misogynist: A man who hates women. Websters dictionary.

Let's see, if I don't agree with Yvonne I must be a woman hater. Please don't tell my wife, mother and daughter Deac.

My point is to expose your hypocrisy. On one hand you loftily say you will refrain from such conspicuous disregard for others and in the same breath you call good ol Dan an a**hole and now a woman hater.

This "do as I say not as I do" mentality makes you lose credibility Deac. Please try to practice what you preach.

By the way, I think Yvonne is a big girl and can fend for herself without the gallant Deacon coming to the rescue.

*****************************************

As for Ollie North, I posted this on a similar LTE a few days ago and no one answered me. You guys on the left are into the concept of social redemption, Tookie Williams comes to mind.

That being said, Ollie got in some trouble a few decades ago, but now he is a law abiding citizen. In fact, he founded the Freedom Alliance scholarship to fund college educations for children who lost military parents.

http://www.freedomalliance.org/scholarship.htm

He has travelled numerous times to Iraq and Afghanistan to support our military. That is a good thing no? Where is the sense of redemption from you critics? Why all this disdain for Ollie? Ohhhh, that's right, he's a CONSERVATIVE!! We can't have a CONSERVATIVE brainwashing our Boy Scouts!!!

Frankly the Boy Scouts can invite whomever they want to their fundraiser and most likely don't care what Deacon, Ed, Mr. Culclausure or anyone else thinks about it. No one is being forced to pay the money to go including me, because I don't have an extra $750 laying around.

It's the way the boy scouts in this area work. I know a scout leader in Gboro who was invited to be an expert at the merit badge college they're holding in hi pt (many types of experts are gathered there so the scouts can fulfill requirements like "talk to a firefighter..."). The troop was invited to participate too, and then got uninvited. However the organizers told this guy that he could bring his son, just not the rest of the boys in the troop. Low class! The girl scouts would never pull stuff like this!!!

Hugh, the word for not strong is weak, not week.

Spooge, I can't speak for your reading comprehension, but my use of the word "week" is exactly as I meant it.

Although the other word could be substituted at will.

Hugh, I actually used the word "projection" already in this thread. It's my word of the week!

For those of you scoring at home, here's the letter that previously inspired me to say people were "projecting."

http://blog.news-record.com/staff/letters/archives/2006/02/perfect_neighbo.html

Back to the North thing, and some of the responses: I just don't think it's very productive, or accurate, to assume that everyone one who disagrees with you on politics, much less a particular issue, is bad and stupid and hates America. Ad hominem arguments and false analogies say more about the people who make them than the people at whom they are aimed.

It can be taken either way and I'm so used to your sloppy logic that I figured you're a sloppy speller, too.

Spooge, that's the eptiomy of DNC tactics. Take something at face value and twist it to make it appear to be something that it's not.

yadda, yadda, yadda...yawn!

The reason the left is against old Ollie speaking to the boy scouts is because of their dislike for the scouts themselves, imo. They have had it in for the scouts ever since they (the scouts) announced their opposition to child molesters being scout leaders.
Since when did Rosemary Roberts and her ilk start giving a damn about a public figure lying? Nary a peep from her when Slick Willie was caught with his 'pants down'. In fact they were staunch supporters of him, if I recall correctly. I wonder how many liberals would be whining about slick willie's lying to a grand jury if he were to speak to the boy scouts???

It's not just "the left," neocon, several of the comments at my blog when I posted about this were from conservatives who were troubled by North's record -- and also by his subsequent career as a highly partisan commentator, which would seem to violate the apolitical nature (and 501c3 status) of the Scouts.

That blog post began with me saying that I loved scouting, that my dad was an Eagle and my son had enjoyed it, too.

This is about believing in scouting, not trashing it.

I can't imagine that anyone supports having child molesters involved in scouting. Tarring all homosexuals with that label is a nasty thing to do.

"The reason the left is against old Ollie speaking to the boy scouts is because of their dislike for the scouts themselves, imo."

Neo - that pisses me off. How DARE you assume you have evena clue what anyone else thinks besides you?

This is the Tripe I was speaking of earlier .. grow up or go away.

Hugh, Ed can accuse me of what he wishes but at least I am willing to look at both sides of an issue. He of course is against Col. North, not because of what he did 20 plus years ago but just the fact that he is conservative. He has never heard the man speak in person at an event such as this but yet claims the man will be pushing his political agenda. Such utter nonsense to make such an assumption unless you have a crystal ball.
Plus he disliked my story about the "hammers" because it struck so close to home. A box full of hammers yet the man only used one hammer because he thought it was the one only "true" hammer. Because of his narrow view concerning the hammer the poor man lost everything he had including his life.

MrP,

I have never claimed that North will "be pushing his political agenda" in his speech.

Not once.

I rather doubt he will.

One more time: he's a polarizing figure, and a highly-political one, and, yes, one who broke the law. That makes him unsuitable as a speaker at an event for the Scouts.

Please, try to keep up. This isn't very complicated.

Ed et al., I notice how my question is never answered. How about the idea of redemption? Ollie broke a law 2 + decades ago but is now a contributing member of society and does alot for our military and their families. Does that make him unsuitable or is it just the fact that he is conservative?

Clinton broke the law too Ed (not a "knob shine" as Deacon terms it, rather perjury) and is a highly political, polarizing figure. Would that make him unsuitable to address the Boy Scouts too in your book?

Does anybody read, or do they just start typing?

Earlier in this thread, I said that conservatives such as Liddy Dole or Richard Burr would be fine. In other threads, examples of speakers I'd be happy to see included Colin Powell or President Bush.

It's not because North's a conservative.

As for breaking the law: he has shown no contrition for his misdeeds. This is an organization predicated on honor. It is not my place to confer forgiveness in some sweeping sense, but I don't feel he's earned it in this case.

And, again, for the Nth time, his job of late has been highly-partisan politcal commentator. The scouts are supposed to be, by charter and tax-status, non-partisan.

Clinton? A popular ex-President, but I think for a group like this, it would be a stretch. But Clinton is not being invited to speak at the BSA fundraiser. North is. Unfortunately.

I have never claimed that North will "be pushing his political agenda" in his speech.

Not once.

Let's start with this Ed as a refresher:
At heart, my problem is with politicizing a youth group that is supposed to be open and inviting to a wide range of kids and adults.
Posted by: Ed Cone at February 12, 2006 09:58 AM

Please explain just what this statement means if it does not mean that he will be "pushing his agenda. You don't use the word Ed but the meaning is there. How about the rest of these where the inference is very plain and was to those on Allen's blog of that day. I believe that several called your hand on this issue on that blog. Short term memory Ed?
---------------------------------------------
Scouting is supposed to be non-partisan, he's a strident partisan.
that North is a politically-charged speaker, which is exactly why he does not belong at an event sponsored by the Boy Scouts, an organization supposedly welcoming to all families

because of his partisan views. That's one reason he shouldn't be speaking to the Scouts.

These objections go well beyond disagreement with his political viewpoints, and fall chiefly in two areas: that a highly partisan spokesman of ANY stripe shouldn't address an inclusive non-partisan group;

He is a divisive and politically charged character, which makes him a poor choice for a Scouting event,

Scouting is supposed to be non-partisan, he's a strident partisan.
---------------------------------------------
he's a strident partisan. or a term similar was used over 11 times on Allen's post on this subject. It seemed to be your favorite of the day. To say this in the terms used you insinuated that he would be "so to speak , pushing his partisan agenda. No way around it Ed. That is exactly what you meant. You didn't have to use the phrase "push his agenda" it is and was implied. I believe that according to count 5 different posters called you task on this very same thing. All you did was keep repeating the same old tired stuff: " he's a strident partisan" politically-charged speaker which is exactly why he does not belong at an event sponsored by the Boy Scouts.

Dig into the box Ed and get a new hammer. The one you have been using just doesn't work anymore.

Oh and Ed, I keep up very well. It's not easy to keep up with one who talks in circles as you do but I still keep up. Lots of experience with you folks Ed that can only see in a very narrow spectrum.

Right. He's a strident partisan. He has no business being associated with, or thrust upon, the local Scouting community.

That doesn't mean I expect him to get up and defend Iran-Contra, or bash "liberals," at the high-dollar breakfast. It never really occurred to me, in fact -- I've never thought much about the content of the speech.

JDR,
I did say IMO. And on top of that, I don't care if that really pisses you off or not. There is lots of things said in these blogs about conservatives (did I spell that right)that pisses ME off. (conservatives can't spell conserve) That pisses me off.

"Grow up or go away". A worn out line the libs like to use when someone gets a little too close to the truth. "Bushy". Now there is a grown up term if ever I heard one. How 'bout "Bushits"? Another mature expression used by the left on a regular basis. I don't recall you suggesting anyone "grow up or go away" for using those terms. You have zero credibility when it comes to telling me to "grow up".... Piss off.

The boy scouts are vilified by the left- yes it IS a left thing- because they do not want homosexual men taking them out on field trips,etc. And I don't blame them. MY kid would not go on a 'field trip' with a known homosexual scout leader. Call me what you want, but have you ever known a child that has been molested by a homosexual? I have and I'm here to tell you THAT is what really pisses ME off!!

Don't worry, you'll have plenty of support here as soon as a few libs read this and start the old line about "judging a whole group" on a few bad apples, BS. If I find one 'bad apple' that has molested a child, I'm not going to turn the rest loose on them and hope it doesn't happen again. I'm going to do everything in my power to make damn sure it doesn't happen again.

Man, I can't believe that UNC is destroying UVA so thoroughly that I'm posting during the game.

Anyway, I just wanted to add, in case it's not clear, that this is a schoolday morning speech to donors -- I have no idea if any Scouts will even be there. That's not my issue.

That said, I'll sign off this thread. Don't really get the personal attacks and blanket indictments of whole swaths of the political spectrum -- there's an issue under discussion, why not talk about that issue?

Peace.

Ed, go watch the 2nd half and see what the Tarheels do next. By the way Duke lost to Fl. State. I'm not a Fl. State fan usually, but I was tonight.

Glad you could at least admit that Clinton wouldn't be an optimal guest according to your standards.

As I said before, I frankly don't think the Boy Scout leadership cares what you and I think, they realize who can draw in the $$, so more power to them.

neocon,

I have never known a child molested by a "homosexual", but I have known several who were molested by a "heterosexual". So if I follow your logic, my child can never be led by a "heterosexual" scout leader. Adults who molest children are called pedophiles, they are attracted to children, not adults. A male who molests a little boy is not a homosexual, he is a pedophile, just like a male who molests a little girl is not a "heterosexual" he is a sicko pedophile. They might use adult relationships as a cover for their sickoness, but that is all those adult relationships are. This is not a "left" or "right" thing, this is a knowing what you are talking about thing ( that the majority of homosexuals think having sex with a child is disturbing and sick and that statistically most pedophiles are "heterosexual"...95% to be exact http://www.crisisconnectioninc.org/sexualassault/pedophilia_and_child_sexual_mole.htm ) and knowing that you should never send your child on an overnight trip with anyone you dont know personally.....homo or hetero. But neo the joy about this country is its your kid and you can let him associate with whomever. I personally want my kids to learn to judge the person, not what we think we know about the label assigned to that person(whether the label assigned is gender, sexuality, race or political affiation) So if that is too liberal for you, then sorry, I dont care. Just like you will not care about the facts I just presented to you.

MRP.

Do you think Oliver North was a good choice?(this is not a sarcastic question, I am seriously wondering) I could care less about his politics, but I question having a criminal and a known liar speak for a boy scout troop, a group that you are trying to teach about honor. I agree with Dan that people can change and find redemption and I hope that he has, but I am confindent that there are plenty (ok at least some lol) people out there who are honorable and worthy to speak for this fundraiser. I do not think Bill Clinton would be a good choice either. I hope that both Clinton and North have learned their lesson, and I think that both are doing a lot of wonderful charitable work now, but speaking to raise money for a boy scout troop I am not so sure about. Maybe Ed really doesnt like his politics, but I think most people would be fine with a republican speaker who was a good person. If Clinton were speaking and people complained, would you think their reasons were purely political? I wouldnt....they would have a legitamate beef. Do you think people would complain if the speaker was Jimmy Carter? Or if the speaker had democratic ties but was honorable? I think some on both sides would complain no matter how good the person was ( whether it was republican/democrat speaker) but I think/hope most people could overlook the politics then. Lying under oath I dont expect people to overlook. I think Lance Armstrong, or Joey Cheek, (as others have mentioned I think) or someone along those lines would have been a better pick.

Obviously it is getting harder to avoid politics when choosing speakers, but for a group like the boyscouts I think a neutral speaker, that could draw in the most people (not drive away half of the money you were trying to attract) would make the most sense.

PS
GO HEELS:) Hope they can pull out another win on Sunday......neocon, just so you know I am not judging you about not letting a homosexual lead your child in boy scouts.....I mean I wouldnt let a duke fan lead my kid.(J/K.....I wanted to end the night on a lighter note)

k,

As usual, you have done a fine job of presenting facts without getting sucked into all the emotional junk that detracts from a rational discussion. Unfortunately, we have some very concrete thinkers who post here. Black and white thinkers who cannot step out of that narrow little box they have built for themselves. And sorry to say facts are wasted on some.

Incidentally Dan, I think Clinton would have been a poor choice to speak to the boy scouts also. I think any political figure, dem or repub, would have been a poor choice. This is an example of using our children for greed and political purposes. Keep politics out of our kids groups, especially when honor and honesty are hallmarks of their code.

Ya know Neo - I checked this link this morning, starting where I'd left off, and there was your post.

I started reading it, and agreed -- OK, you were expressing an opinion, that allows "slack", and you brought to haunt me a few of my comments, like "conservatives can't spell conserve" and I do use "Bushy" in a derogatory way while not harping on those that come up with similar disparages.

THEN I went back to read what was so inflamatory.

You said "The reason the left is against old Ollie speaking to the boy scouts is because of their dislike for the scouts themselves, imo."

Paraphrased, I said that was the kind of statement a child would make - Middle High Schoolish at best - and of no value: tripe.

Your go on to talk about children molested by homosexual. k corrected your wording, but already your fear of faggots was exposed.

No-one I know is not appauled by Pedophiles - including their fellow prisoners that upon learning one among them is in this sin. Accorging to a friend who was a DA and is now a judge, prisoners gang up and stomp the pedophile bastard on a routinely basis, and there certainly will be no "outcry" from me over that.

.. but I stand behind my post. To say - twice now - that everyone on the left (left of whom, btw) vilifies all Boy Scouts because the BSA will not let pedophiles abuse innocent children is TRIPE.

.. and I stand the rest of my post. To use tripe for political left-right argument is the exact strategy currently being used by many to split this country apart for their own advantage, and that pisses me off. If the shoe fits, wear it.

"A male who molests a little boy is not a homosexual, he is a pedophile".

And don't tell me: All he needs is some counseling and understanding,right?
A male who has sexual experences with another of the same sex, be it boy or man, is a homosexual. You can call it what you wish- pedophile, hetrosexual, normal, whatever. But for a man to have sex with another person of the same sex, he is a homosexual.
The 'gay rights' crowd have been very successful in redefining the meaning of molestation. They have convinced a large segment of soceity to call those who have sex with children of the same sex pedophiles and not homosexual just because it is a child that is being molested. So it is only homosexuals that have relations with other consenting adults that are true homosexuals,right? Right.

And, of course, there is Yvonne with her support of a "anything goes" soceity. Right on cue. I am a litle disappointed that only two have come rushing to the defense of child molestation. This is encouraging, but it is still early and the hard core left is still in bed.

Neo,

Normally I do not stoop to your level of gutter snipe but today is an exception. You display an incredible ignorance in your interpretation of what people post. Nowhere, absolutely nowhere, has anyone on this thread advocated the molestation of children. Your sick, twisted mind is beyond comprehension. You have lost any respect I may have had for your opinion heretofor. Your "tripe" is not deserving of such a nice word. Unadulterated sickness is more fitting.

To the rest of those who posts here: I apologize for my emotional response. Any suggestion I approve of child abuse is like a knife in my heart. May God forgive me for being human.

K, thanks for being the first and only to answer my question. I'm glad someone applauds the concept of redemption and that Ollie is now contributing to society in a positive way.

Yes he is a political figure, and yes he is very conservative. Yes he will draw in money, this is a fundraiser after all.

Glad you and I share the Heels in common too. I will be firmly seated on my sofa Sat. night at 9:00 watching the game and listening to Woody.

Neocon,

If you think the people who replied to you are defending child molestation then you have more problems than anyone on this blog originally thought. Did you read the link I sent you? Obviously not. And nothing angers me more than someone who has had the facts presented but simply ignores them because he "thinks" he knows the "gay-rights" crowd created this (once again check your facts) Homosexuality and Pedophilia are not even in the same ball park and that is a fact that you are choosing not to believe because of your feelings concerning homosexuality. If you think homosexuality is a sin and disagree with it I could care less, but to equate two adult males having a consentual relationship with sicko perverts having sex with children is simply beyond my comprehension. And MRP you are usually all about commenting when people present lies or do not use facts to back up their opinions, why so quiet? I dont mean to call you out, but this is a lot more ridiculous than people being confused over the paramaters of a port deal. Neocon, if you want to be informed read the link I provided or contact an organization that deals with children who have been victimized by pedophiles, or like usuall you can refuse and continue to spew of the misconception that homosexuals and pedophiles are the same thing. For all those on this board who knock liberals for not writing when another liberal makes a ridiculous comment.....where are the conservatives? This has nothing to do with how you feel about homosexuality!

Neocon,

If you think the people who replied to you are defending child molestation then you have more problems than anyone on this blog originally thought. Did you read the link I sent you? Obviously not. And nothing angers me more than someone who has had the facts presented but simply ignores them because he "thinks" he knows the "gay-rights" crowd created this (once again check your facts) Homosexuality and Pedophilia are not even in the same ball park and that is a fact that you are choosing not to believe because of your feelings concerning homosexuality. If you think homosexuality is a sin and disagree with it I could care less, but to equate two adult males having a consentual relationship with sicko perverts having sex with children is simply beyond my comprehension. And MRP you are usually all about commenting when people present lies or do not use facts to back up their opinions, why so quiet? I dont mean to call you out, but this is a lot more ridiculous than people being confused over the paramaters of a port deal. Neocon, if you want to be informed read the link I provided or contact an organization that deals with children who have been victimized by pedophiles, or like usuall you can refuse and continue to spew of the misconception that homosexuals and pedophiles are the same thing. For all those on this board who knock liberals for not writing when another liberal makes a ridiculous comment.....where are the conservatives? This has nothing to do with how you feel about homosexuality!

K,
I did read the link. I don't think anyone encourages child molestation. I do think there are those who try to put a face on it that portrays the perp in a 'better light', if you will, in the name of "tolerance" as they do not want to be branded a "homophobe". I stand by my statement that if one male has a sexual experence with another male, regardless of the age of one or the other, that person is a homosexual. Period. And I wouldn't want my child to go on a field trip with one of them in charge.

Yvonne said "you have lost any respect that I may have had of your opinion heretofore".

Let's just be honest ok? You never had any respect for any of my opinions from the getgo and I have have seen very little out of you that I would agree with, so no big whoop. Have a nice life.

Gee, here it is 9:00am and the hardcore left still hasn't decended on me for this. What gives? I thought the mail ran yesterday.

Ed, is the N&R going to cover the event?

Neocon,

You be honest for you, I'll be honest for me. Despite what opinion you have about me, I have listened to what you had to say with an open mind. I do not have to agree with someone to have a respect for their opinions. I have disagree with Mr. P, James, Hayes, Joe, Darryl, Veracitylimits, Yellowdog and many more but have respect for their opinions.

Respect for someone else's opinion does not come from like thinking insofar as I am concerned. It comes from a fair exchange of ideas, an honest discussion wherein someone is attempting to present their POV without tearing down my POV, a real effort to share knowledge/facts.

I saw none of that in your post that I responded to. I read contempt, mean-spiritedness and an attempt to run over other people. Such has no place in a forum where people are trying to communicate on a respectful level.

To be honest (from my perspective) Neo, your suggestion that I somehow condone child abuse in any form, was full of hate and spite. This is the picture you have presented to me. Thus I have no futher desire to consider your posts.

Spooge, I have no idea.

Just a reminder: I'm a contributor, not a staffer, don't work in the building, and have limited contact with anyone beyond my op-ed editors -- and not that much with them.

Yvonne: "I have disagree with Mr. P, James, Hayes, Joe, Darryl, Veracitylimits, Yellowdog and many more but have respect for their opinions."

Am I on the "disrespect" list? You got me worried.

Dan, you have NEVER been in the gutter like NeoCON, and therefore your opinions are still respected---although wrong! (That's just humor, Dan)

NeoCON,
You have exposed yourself as an ignorant bigot. In my time on earth I have never seen one without the other, so I apologize for the redundancy.

Your blanket comments about the left not liking the Boy Souts is preposterous, and your understanding of the difference between pedophilia and homosexuality is non existent.

If you have an honorable bone in your body, you will either apologize or exit this blog, to never return.

Dan,

Although we disagree most of the time, I respect your opinion. I give you heck sometimes, but you know it is tit for tat. I find it rewarding when we can find an issue of agreement, some common ground.

No matter how vehemently I disagree with some of the people here, I have always believed all of you to be basically good folks. Just differences of opinion. We all have our passions, thus state our opinions strongly sometimes. I generally do not take it to heart. Today I did.

Ward Churchill, obscure? Joey Cheek, did they not turn him away a Yale? Did they not let a Taliban leader In?

Joey Cheek's rejection from Harvard is not in the league of Oliver North's rejection of the truth. Get real!

This Dog: I said I was done here, but since you are asking about an adjective I used to describe Ward Churchill, I'll answer:

Yes, "obscure" describes him pretty well, in that nobody much had heard of him before his Eichmann comments were publicized, and he has not gained much of a following since then. He had his brief moment of fame, or infamy, and can now get back to seeing just how far tenure really stretches...

Contrast that to North, who is genuinely famous, or some of the other names suggested, e.g., Clinton.

If anyone is interested, I've posted some thoughts at my blog about comments and this page.

http://edcone.typepad.com/wordup/2006/03/ad_whominem.html

It never really occurred to me, in fact -- I've never thought much about the content of the speech.

Yes Ed, A lot didn't occur to you when you denied making such statement but the first quote shows that you certainly did make the inference that he was pushing his agenda.

"At heart, my problem is with politicizing a youth group that is supposed to be open and inviting to a wide range of kids and adults."
Posted by: Ed Cone at February 12, 2006 09:58 AM

You can do whatever you wish to try to wiggle out of this and deny all you want but your words are there.

K I have been away if you will note. Actually the comments made are not really worth commmenting on because they are so far off the subject actually introduced in the original post. Homosexuality and pedophilia had no place on this subject. How it got introduced is a mystery and should have been ignored thus ending the argument or lack of one

Do you think Oliver North was a good choice?(this is not a sarcastic question, I am seriously wondering) I could care less about his politics, but I question having a criminal and a known liar speak for a boy scout troop, a group that you are trying to teach about honor.

Actually K, Oliver North can speak to any group that has the money to pay him and he will in turn give them what they want to hear be it a political speech for those who request or an uplifting speech such as he has given before Boy Scout organizations before. This occasion he will probably not be speaking to a group of scouts but to the leadership and to those who can afford the price of the ticket. They will get just exactly what they pay for. If he was speaking before a group of boys they would know him only as the guy who does War Stories on TV or was on the news . Remember even most of their parents weren't even old enough to know what was going on with Col North over 20 years ago. Teenagers maybe and at that point would have probably cared less or paid it any attention. Frankly I don't care if he rides on a donkey or an elephant.

You know K, there are many criminals and liars in Congress but folks don't seem to mind and seem to continue to re-elect them over and over again. I considered the man who ran against this president last time to be a liar as well because of his so-called testimony before congress concerning supposedly atrocities that he witnessed. He later admitted that he had not witnessed any such. Still makes him a liar before congress.Oliver North did nothing worse and he certainly was not a candidate for the highest office in the land.
The good that both of these men have done with the rest of their lives far outweighs the wrong they may have committed in the past. To continue to deride a man for his past would certainly put many in this country in the same boat and some also on this particular blog post.

K,et al, from various sources:

The high rate of molestations by homosexuals is consistent with other studies conducted during the past several decades. Here are just a few studies that show homosexuals molesting children at epidemic rates:

The Los Angeles Times conducted a survey in 1985 of 2,628 adults across the U.S. Of those, 27% of the women and 16% of the men had been sexually molested. Seven percent of the girls and 93% of the men had been molested by adults of the same sex. This means that 40% of child molestations were by homosexuals. (Los Angeles Times, August 25-6, 1985)

In 1984, a Vermont survey of 161 adolescents who were sex offenders found that 35 of them were homosexuals (22%). (Wasserman, J., “Adolescent Sex Offenders—Vermont, 1984” Journal American Medical Association, 1986; 255:181-2)

In 1991, of the 100 child molesters at the Massachusetts Treatment Center for Sexually Dangerous Persons, a third were heterosexual, a third were bisexual, and a third were homosexual. (Dr. Raymond Knight, “Differential Prevalence of Personality Disorders in Rapists and Child Molesters,” Eastern Psychological Association Conference, New York, April 12, 1991)

Drs. Freund and Heasman of the Clark Institute of Psychiatry in Toronto reviewed two studies on child molesters and calculated that 34% and 32% of the sex offenders were homosexual. In cases these doctors had handled, 36% of the molesters were homosexuals. (Freund, K. “Pedophilia and Heterosexuality vs. Homosexuality,” Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy, 1984; 10:193-200)

From these studies and many more, it is evident that homosexuals molest children at a far greater rate than do their heterosexual counterparts. While they comprise only 1-2% of the population, they are responsible for upwards of a third or more of all sexual molestations of children.

Again, I'm not saying all homosexuals are child molesters, I'm just saying I would not let one take my child on a field trip with the boy scouts.

Yes, MrP, my words are there:

"At heart, my problem is with politicizing a youth group that is supposed to be open and inviting to a wide range of kids and adults."

Nothing there about the content of the speech, at which one presumes there will be few if any kids.

It's about politicizing the group -- Scouting.

North's presence makes him a face of Scouting. I think that's wrong.

The content of a speech that he will give to breakfast meeting of adults is not at issue. I guess if he says something particularly political, it would be additionally inappropriate, but again, I've never really given much thought to the content of the speech itself.

I'm sorry you misunderstood the nature of my objection. Perhaps now that my point is clear to you, you will agree with it?

neocon,
Having a discussion with you is sometimes pointless. Your mind is made up and you used studies from 1984! Are you kidding me? And I looked up your author, Feund and he updated his own work several years later, here is what he said "Also, pedophilia has little in common with homosexuality or heterosexuality in males who prefer physically mature partners" He also wrote alot more than that little quote you got from your biased webpage. you got all of your quotes from a website that is obviously bias (http://www.traditionalvalues.org/urban/one.php) I mean the title of the page is "Homosexual Urban Myths! Did you really think you could pass this stuff off as fact?
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_chil.htm
"While there is no evidence that homosexuals are any more likely to molest children, and in fact most credible studies done show that most child molestors are heterosexual, the sterotype that gay men and women had a predatory interest in children was a powerful tool for organizations that wanted to oppose gay rights legislation and reforms [1]". (wikipedia)
Funny I dont think all the facts in the world will make you understand this one, but at least I know I tried.

MrP
I read your posts and your reasons make sense, not to mention it is someones choice to pay the money and see him. I just think that there would be an outcry if Clinton or Kerry were the speaker as well. At the end of the day as long as money is raised for a good group,then I am not going to lose any sleep over it. I still wish they would have been more neutral (or hell even current) FYI--pedophilia became the topic of this post after Neocon tied in the boyscouts (since people are only protesting this b/c they are liberal and hate the boyscouts...) He then tied homosexuality to pedophilia. It is really off topic, I just hate it when someone is so ridiculous in their claims to have the facts. I should probally leave it alone....

"It's about politicizing the group -- Scouting."

Interesting comment, Ed.

What was your opinion when outside groups criticized the national Scouts organization in the past for policies that the national group established?

By the way, if I understand correctly, the Greensboro appearance by Col. North is not his first appearance at a Scout event.

I'm not a shrink, Neo, but I think part of the discussion is Ped'philes are - motivated (is that a fair word?) - by things different than homosexuals.

While often there is overlap, and arguably any same-sex encounter can be labeled "homo'", they are apples and oranges: both round fruit but not the same.

You can argue they are both evil - many will agree with you.

Many will argue homo' behaviour is not really evil - and in fact in some cultures it has even been encouraged.

Most will argue pedo behaviour is really evil - thankfully in most cultures it is considered REALLY Bad..

Bubba, what is the analogy between a Scout group (or groups) aligning themselves with a highly-partisan figure, and outside groups protesting that group's policies?

In any case, I believe that private groups are allowed to make their own rules. That was complicated in the case of the Scouts by their use of public facilities (my troop met at a public school) and funding from the United Way. I was troubled by what I felt to be an overly restrictive and unfair policy toward gays, and yet I still enrolled my own son in the organization. So I was conflicted and don't have a simple answer for you, but in any case I don't see the clear comparison to the North situation.

Now, if The Dog will accept my characterization of Ward Churchill as "obscure," and MrP will quit driving down rhetorical cul de sacs and reiterating his misunderstanding of a point I've been making in print, repeatedly, since Feb 9, I will try to quit this thread yet again.

K,
You say I cite 'right wing' webpages, I say you cite 'leftwing sources'. Yes, csm is a leftwing source. I suppose the 'Journal American Medical Assn.'and the 'LA Times' are "rightwing" publications? Hardly. We are at a standof. Believe what you want.

JDR,
I am no shrink,either. But I say the boy scouts are right in refusing homosexuals into their org.

BTW, do those societies that 'encourage' homosexuality still exist? Or did they disappear after one generation? And who 'encouraged' the practice of it? The hetrosexuals or the homosexuals?

Back to the point of the letter: It is my contention that old Ollie is being raked over the coals by Roberts and her ilk because he stands for traditional family values. And like it or not, traditional family values does not include homosexuals leading boy scouts on field trips. This may not fit YOUR template of 'family values', but like it or not this is where the vast majority of people stand. Homosexuals make up about 2-4% of the population. This is hardly enough to 'overthrow' the wishes of most people. Try as they might to convince the rest of society that they are indeed, 'mainstream'. They are far from it.

And again I ask: since when does the likes of Roberts give a damn about a public figure that has lied? Answer: when that figure is a conservative (did I spell that right?) and has plans to speak to an org. that she and other liberals dislike because they do not allow gays into their org. and are taught traditional american values. All imo, of course. Your milage may vary.

neocon, yes we can agree that we are at a standoff.....I am sorry I didnt realize that religioustolerance.org (which presents soley facts on both sides of the issue) or wikipedia were left wing. Or that the majority of research out there that debunks your information was left wing. Nearly every scholarly journal does just that...hence why I have my opinion on the subject. All liberals do not hate the boyscouts...even if they disagree with their decision to disallow gays. Do you see things in that way so much so that you assume that all others who disagree with you do too? The boy scouts do alot of good things for a lot or people, so no I dont hate them nor do most of my liberal friends. Do I wish they would include everyone? Yes, but that is along way from having a death wish for the organization. Your paranoia is clouding your ability to engage in a reasonable conversation with someone who has a different view than you. You immediately assume that because I am a democrat (or whatever I am, since I dont ever adhere to a label or the opinions of one group)that I have an agenda and follow some liberal playbook. I disagree with many others on the blog, like Dan or MrP, and even when the debate gets heavy I rarely feel that they are dismissing my comments as they read them, without considering my opinion at all. I totally disagree with your stance on homosexuality, but I respect your right to think it is wrong, I will not even debate you on that issue. I only took you to task because of your comparison to pedophiles. That is a serious, serious accusation (think of heterosexuals who are wrongly accused and what just an accusation, even if proven wrong can do to a person)If you make such a comparison you better be damn sure, since almost all research (of course there is some that supports your argument, mainly funded and encouraged by family groups who have a vendetta against homosexuality....I could care less if you think it is wrong, but leave people to live their own lives) debunks the fact that the majority of pedophiles are homosexual. The personal opinion you have does not bother me, nor do I care who you allow your children to associate with. But when you offer up the opinion that most pedophiles are homosexual as fact, in the public forum, I am going to post the facts that contradict that. On that note....like you said before, standoff:) So until we meet again on another lte....good night neo.

Dan,

I somehow overlooked your post earlier. No problem answering your question. I hope that more people in Washington will redeem themselves after years of corruption and do some good . I am impressed that North did not shy away (which he could have done) and what he is doing is good for the world now....same with Clinton, I like the fact that he joins forces with Bush 1. They cant change what they did, but they can refine the paramaters by which we will measure them some day.
I am hoping to watch the game on Franklin Street....sometimes it is such a hastle to find a good spot though. For the NCAA championship last year I had to grap a seat at 3 in the afternoon, but it was well worth it to see the aftermath (watching from a safe distance of course)

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