"Oh, and thank you for the black-and-white article (one-fourth the size) telling me that the death of al-Zarqawi was mostly symbolic."

Here's an unconfirmed news report of the fat lady singing, post-Zarqawi:

http://www.tehrantimes.com/Description.asp?Da=6/22/2006&Cat=2&Num=1

Speaking of Iraq:

"We have found weapons of mass destruction in Iraq ... This is an incredibly ... significant finding. The idea that, as my colleagues have repeatedly said in this debate on the other side of the aisle, that there are no weapons of mass destruction, is in fact false."

"A Pentagon official who confirmed the findings to Agence France-Presse that all the weapons were pre-1991 munitions "in such a degraded state they couldn't be used for what they are designed for." The official, who asked not to be identified, said most were 155mm artillery projectiles with mustard gas or sarin of varying degrees of potency."

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060621-114414-3312r.htm

I oonce bought a house, and in the basement was a box of antique rat poison. I'll have to recheck the paperwork, but certainly it was previously owned by Saddam.

John Gibson is not the wh spokesperson. I haven't heard Bush trying to make political hay out of this. Look elsewhere for conspiracies:

"The U.S. military announced in 2004 in Iraq that several crates of the old shells had been uncovered and that they contained a blister agent that was no longer active. Neither the military nor the White House nor the CIA considered the shells to be evidence of what was alleged by the Bush administration to be a current Iraqi program to make chemical, biological and nuclear weapons".

"Mostly symbolic"

If his death causes a lessening of attacks, it will not be merely symbolic.

If attacks remain the same or increase, his death will be "mostly symbolic".

I *gasp* almost find myself agreeing with part of what Rumsfeld said about it: "The death of Zarqawi, while enormously important, will not mean the end of all violence in that country and one ought not to take it as such."

It's not the size of the article that counts, its how much information is in it.

(badumbum)

sorry, couldn't resist.

Hey, did you all notice that the LTTE managed to make a point regarding an international news item (or lack there of) and called to task the fish wrap without using the words, Leftist, Liberal or democrat?

... he didn't use the words, LBB, but his tongue was buried purdy far in his cheek.

No matter how far the tongue was in the author's cheek, JDR, you gotta admit that it's nice to see the author not resort to name calling.

That being the case, I fully expect the "right over our heads sarcasm brigade" to commence artillery fire at the author.

JDR,

A couple of points since you brought up the mattere of WMD:

1) Regardless of age and potency, what was discovered was Chemical WMD.

2) These deposits were never found by the inspections teams, even though they existed. And, Saddam claimed that they didn't exist because they all had been destroyed, which has been proven to not be true.

3) So, if these WMD did exist and weren't found, how do we arrive at the position that since WMD's never were found, they never existed in Iraq? The importance of this finding is that WMD did exist before the war, as everyone knew, and because it was never found, doesn't mean that it didn't exist. What happened to it? There is the possibility that it is stil buried and has not been found or it was moved before the war in the convoy to Syria.

If you and the others were fair, you'd have to agree that this is all possible. It may not be the case, but it is possible. To use your example, if that rat poison had never been discovered, it does not mean that it did not, or does not, exist.

I think the information regarding the non-issuance of rebates trumps the information on the death of al-Zarqawi.

The rebate information deals with the day-to-day life of far too many people in our area. al-Zarqawi is "over there" so we do not have to worry about "them" over here. The rebates are "over here." Is that plain enough?

Shalom

I suppose the finding of WMD and the killing of the al-Zarqawi, the terrorist leader in Iraq, would be called "An Inconvient Truth" to use an Algore term.

Oak,
So far, al Zarqawi's death has not done much to end the violence, but I think we all agree it was a nice military maneuver, given all the blunders made by Washington.

ORR:

Everyone I know acknowledges WMD's at one time existed. The question is, were they around at the time GWB the Decider grabbed his 6-shooter and, while pulling it out to strike down Black Bart in Iraq, ended up shooting America in the foot.

Forgive the allegory, but how many times can one state the obvious.

I think you're right, much was moved to Syria or somewhere else, but remember, we had Hans in there looking - and while Saddam may have been playing a shell game, Saddam was pretty-much tied up, and no imminent threat.

We may have to agree to disagree, but it's clear to me that we went in half cocked - we went in quickly 'cause after a several months of looking, Hans wasn't finding much, World support for Bushes claims - including America opinion was eroding fast, and it was now or never.

Since Richard Pearle, William Crystal, Wolfy, Rummy, Charlie Krauthammer (what a perfect name for that arrogant asshole) and many others were on record since 1998 to "get 'em", since Cheney was on record for stating America needed our own secure and massive base in the heart of Middle East Oil County, since the storm was perfect - we went in.

You can support going' in, I'll disagree until you convince me otherwise. It was stupid - and now, three years in, we STILL don't know what to do.

I listened to the radio at lunch as the senate is debating - the R's are steadfast: No timetable, we can't leave until the milestones are established. I shouted back - WHAT ARE THE MILESTONES? I've asked in here - you don't have an answer.

How about this: After Saddam is captured, and his sons are put away. After an elected Government is voted in democratically and after that elected Government is fully established. After the main symbol is of al-Qui'ida is killed. All that's been done. What are we waiting for? Put on the table what you want - right no we have an open ended Orwellian fiasco.

WHAT ARE THE MILESTONES? If you're waiting for a Baptist church in Baghdad, we're going to be there a while. FINE - then put the $5 Billion dollars a month bill ON budget - that'd be an honest start.

Yea, the rat poison existed, but the basement had been cleaned, it was just some overlooked residue. Ever watch Perry Mason? The bad guy always cleans up well but always overlooks some residue.

"Regardless of age and potency, what was discovered was Chemical WMD."

Not so much, according to the DoD. But hey, what does the Department of Defense know?

Clarification of the above: almost 20 year old munitions left over from the Iran Iraq war were not the WMDs that caused us to go to war.

JDR,

Great post! I think the timetable that has been repeated about a zillion times is that we will stay until a well-trained Iraqi force is in place and the situation over there is stable. Now, that isn't exactly definitive (what does stable mean?) but that has been what I've been hearing at least since 2004.

Denzien,

So what's your point? My point is that if 20 year old WMD was overlooked and not found, who's to say that there isn't later models still not found? I repeat my point: that which is not yet found could exist. You can't prove that something doesn't exist because you haven't found it. The only thing that not finding something proves is that you haven't found it yet. It may not exist, but not finding it doesn't prove it does not exist. Logic 101.

Thanks YD, but be careful, I'll get accused of something.

One final thought. Got kids? Ever tell them something and they ask you WHY? Explain and they ask WHY again. This goes on for a while until either you tell them to go away, OR ... OR until you explain what they really wanted to know in words they can understand.

That's all rational American's want ... tell us in words that make sense why we need to stay.

Hint: "BECAUSE ... " is not good enough. It's what you tell your kids and what we're hearing from the Decider & Comany. Neither is "Fight 'em there", 'cause does that mean other Middle East countries too? What about England & Spain? Does Canada count? We'd better add Somolia.

Hint: "Until the Insurgeny is Defeated", is not good enough, 'cause what doed that mean? Days / weeks / months without any attack? If some time is set and met, and we start to leave and there's a follow-up attack, do we reset the clock? How big an attack - do cherrie-bombs and missing fingers count, or does it have to involve body count. How many dead bodies does a quorum make? Remember also, that ObL waiting 8 years between Twin Tower attacks, and will this count only in Iraq, or do other Middle East countries? What about England & Spain? Does Canada count? We'd better add Somolia ...

ORR:

Got any plant food in your garage? Scotts Osmocote® Outdoor & Indoor Smart Release® Plant Food would be good, it has some ammonium nitrate. Next time you get gas for you mower, pick up a quart or diesel too .. after you place it next to the Scotts Plant Food, we'll call Hans to look in your garage.

He'll find WMD's in your garage, then you'll be vindicated.

"So what's your point?"

My point is that the DoD is refuting your claims. They say that these piddly weapons are not the reason we went to war.

"My point is that if 20 year old WMD was overlooked and not found, who's to say that there isn't later models still not found?"

While that may be the case, I will point you to the US's search for WMD. I will allow you to remind me how that official search went.

"Logic 101."

Logic 102: Prove a negative. I say you have heroin on your property. Prove you don't have heroin on your property.

Don't you just love "The Decider"!

Gotta wonder what kind of people are still supporting the administration on its war of choice. Where's the WMD? Heck, where did Bin Ladin go!

Watched Rumsfeld's press conference this afternoon, and when he was pressed about the number of Iraqi civilians killed by American bombs and troops, he cut the reporter off cold turkey and moved on. What a nightmare.

DD

The LTE has it right, as always you are blinded by your hatred of Bush and anything resembling forthrightness.

As for WMD, I suppose mustard gas is a mere form of Lysol in your estimation?

Bin Laden, let me guess if Bush has a foreign government ready to give him up he will choose a Lewinsky instead.

Well said, DD, Den, YD, and JDR. We should know by now that some will defend our "leaders" no matter what. Let's all pray for a miracle.

Wow, how did a "Lewinsky" get into a forthright question?

Wonders never cease to amaze me!

Shalom,
Darryl

"and anything resembling forthrightness."

Have you ever considered that maybe it was the lack of this "forthrightness" that has gotten us into the mess in which we find ourselves?

And maybe a little more transparency might be good, too.

Or would that sort of accountability help the TERRORISTS too much?

More bad news for the liberals and democrats:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060623/D8IDSAQ02.html

neo, why is that bad news? It seems they were arrested because of complaints from neighbors, not wiretapping. They are Americans. I hate to tell you this, but you are really grasping at straws to bash liberals and Democrats.

Carol, I'm sure there will be a cadre of liberals along in a bit to explain this to you in terms you understand and agree with,

Carol,
Some who post here regularly, have been brainwashed at their church or their men's club or whatever that all things in the world that are bad, are due to liberals. The sad part is that those who claim the mantle of Christianity still do not realize that Jesus WAS the consummate liberal.
As for neoCON, he is one dimensional and we all should ignore him. For the life of me, I cannot figure out when he goes to his sheltered workshop as he posts here all hours of the day!

Neocon, I would like your explanation. BTW, just heard on NPR that 5 were Americans, possibly one Hatian, and one here illegally.

All terrorists are not from foreign countries. I do think all terrorists are evil.

Remember: terrorism is NOT a country. Terrorists are individuals filled with hatred for many reasons.

I'll explain it to you, Carol:

It's a little know fact that MIAMI, FLA is in fact a suburb of Baghdad Iraq - special adoption thing - so that's what "fighting them there instead of here" means.

Also, know the secret reason for Gitmo and Abu Ghraib was to motivate questioning youth into creating cells like this one so we could then flush them out - kinda like a vacination: little infections so you have legit' success to brag on (kinda like the WMD's ORR showed us the other day).

This particular one is to show that the Department of Homeland Security is on the ball, and we are safer, what with all the duct tape.

btw, I learns all this on the Sean sLimebaugh Show, who's guests last night were Ann Coldher and Bill O Really(?)

Ha! I'll admit you had me going there for a minute, JDR. Clever stuff.

JDR,
Great work!

"Not so much, according to the DoD. But hey, what does the Department of Defense know? "

They know PLENTY, but they're playing politics with it.

http://tks.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MzIzMDljNTgwMDRkMjA5NWZhYjhjZTAzMGUwODY5ZTg=

Key point:

"However, a dozen mustard-filled shells were recovered at a former CW storage facility in the period 1997-1998. The chemical sampling of these munitions, in April 1998, revealed that the mustard was still of the highest quality. After seven years, the purity of mustard ranged between 94 and 97%."

"However, a DOZEN mustard-filled shells"

Well, at least you can be sure that Karl wasn't indicted. Here we go again... Read, my friend, read.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2005-09-02-WMD-indepth_x.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134625,00.html

http://www.cato.org/research/articles/reynolds-040620.html

Since Fox news said there were no WMD, it must be true. Good posts, JDR & Den.

I often wonder why it is OK for the USA, India and Israel to have nuclear weapons. How do we decide who can and cannot have them? Wouldn't it be nice if no one had them?????

Well now we know that Bubba and Rick Santorum get their news from the same right wing publication!

Bubba,
It's been shown false by the D.O.D.----you know, the same D.O.D. Mr. Produce uses to justify the war!

Off Thread - but it struck me as funny:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13521628/site/newsweek/

If the DEM's call it - it's cut and run.

If Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki calls for it ... well let's see how it's spun.

James,
Remember the word "Vietnamization"? Guess our Idiot-In-Chief will have someone come up with a similar term to describe the Republican version of Cut and Run!
If Bush reported to a corporate board, he would have been fired months ago.