Julie,

What did you do in 1979 for which you are apologizing? Being here and being ignorant?

Julie, newsflash: I DON'T CARE. Know on I know gives 2 cents about the issue and I know of no one who even reflects on the Klan/Nazi/Commie shooting unless someone like you brings it up.

This is a non issue for citizens who have lives outside of racial hatred and race baiting victim mentalities. Get a life and get over it.

Cone, Hogg, et al, drag this one into your blogs and chew on it.

Oak Ridge,
Your post made me burst out into laughter! Thanks! (seriously)
I think she should apologize on both counts!

I didn't live here in 1979 and therefore I don't consider this to be my history. If Nelson Johnson apologized, good for him. He was here and was involved in the situation and if it helped him move forward, then that's great.

But a forced apology from the city and the police department is asking too much. The 'city' represents ALL of us. And MOST of us weren't here or weren't involved. In terms of the police department, I would be that almost everyone in the police department now came in AFTER this event. If there are a few that were around, let them apologize individually if they feel the need.

Just because Rev. Johnson apologized, does that mean his entire congregation should apologize as well?

I agree with those who wonder why people who were not involved should apologize. Also, blanket apologies such as this are really meaningless. Apologize to the people you have personally wronged, ask God and their forgiveness, and move on.

If we started apologizing for others crimes, there would not be enough space available in the media.

I am "one of those" who feels the issue is over and done and should have been left as history. Digging up bones usually just stirs up hatred and discord.

Leonard Pitts had an interesting take on collective guilt and apologies when he spoke here earlier this year.

He pointed out that people have no trouble with collective pride -- say, the feeling we might get when viewing the famous image of the Marines raising the flag on Iwo Jima, even if we were born long after the fact and never wore a uniform -- and that the converse might thus also be relevant.

He also said that it's important, having processed unpleasant history, to move on and not let it fester as anger or as guilt.

I take pride and interest in things that happened in Greensboro before I was born, from the Battle of Guilford Courthouse to the Underground Railroad to the Sit-ins.

I was 17 when the killings happened in 1979, I don't have any direct apology to make.

But clearly that day and the outcome of the subsequent trials left some people feeling that not all neighborhoods are served equally by the cops, and that justice is meted out unevenly in Greensboro. That's a big part of what needs to be reconciled, and it's a big part of the value of this flawed but interesting process and report.

Apology = Admission of Guilt = Lawsuits.

This is a bunch of feel good PC BS perpetrated by people who have nothing better to do than dig up a bygone event of a quarter century ago that hardly anyone cares about.

Wanna go back even further? How about companies apologizing for slavery. Read this one:

http://www.wachovia.com/misc/0,,877,00.html

The notion that the city and/or the police department might owe citizens an apology for something they did or failed to do isn't quite as farfetched as some commenters make out.

In our system of government, the government is us. It acts with our consent (the consent of the governed), on our behalf. Because it is imperfect, as people are, it will make mistakes. And when it does, apologizing might well be appropriate behavior. To suggest that there is NO connection between what us and what our government does is wrong, un-American and a potentially dangerous fiction.

Is an apology appropriate in this particular case? I don't know, and I think the answer to that question lies in the eye of the beholder. But to suggest that your government will never do things you later wish it hadn't done is to suggest that government is perfectable when the individuals who together make up the government are not.

Dan, I think your first point that an apology could have legal and financial implications is an important one, and a possible constraint on the wording of any statement by the City.

I don't think that this leads logically to your second statement, that the whole thing is BS.

Ed, glad you could agree on the legal/financial aspect. The slavery reparations crowd tried to get the govt. to pay blacks for the slavery of their ancestors. That didn't work, so they tried to shake down corporations. As you can see, Wachovia wasn't in existence at the time, but that doesn't matter. About the best they have received so far to my knowledge is apologies.

I think the T&R crowd still wants some type of financial reimbursement as well. That may sound cynical, but usually when a "wrong" takes place, money seems to make it "right".

I still think the whole thing is BS, sorry but just my opinion. It serves to divide people and define Greensboro in a negative manner.

BTW, I read your op-ed yesterday, enjoyed it but I must say I agreed with Davenports more.

Has anyone read the GPD administrative review of the gun battle? I realize many on the left side of the aisle will dismiss the report out of hand, however, I read it several years ago (at the main library) and it sheds quite a different light on why the Tactical Squad wasn't where they were supposed to be. But nowhere could I find a convincing explanation of why Nelson Johnson surrounded himself with children, being aware of what was sure to come (based upon previous confrontations).
Oh yeah, no apologies here.

Ed Cone,
Great article in Sunday's paper. Also, I'm glad you weighed in on this thread as many white people still struggle with race and guilt. (me included) As for those who consider the T&R nothing but BS, I imagine their tune would change if they were black for a day.

When you folks get thru apoligizing to a bunch of commies and blood suckers how about taking time to apoligize to my ancestors. After all they still haven't gotten an apology nor reparations for the land that was stolen and for being placed on reservations like cattle where they were starved, and still are for the most part. Where they are treated like children and live in conditions comparabable to a third world country.
When these blood suckers in G'boro who want nothing but money are through whining and complaining about 1979 and the idiot who lead a bunch of commies through a housing project, knowing what would occur especially after running his mouth at the Klan and Nazi's are finished and you all get tired of cowtowing to them maybe you can really look at some real T&R.
In the mean time I call it like Harry Truman, Give em hell and call it an apology.

WJE,

I thought one of the most eloquent lines in the TRC dealt with the "lack of curiosity" by the GPD. The cops had a deep store of knowledge about the two groups, and about the movements of the Klan that day. One needn't be convinced of the "intentionality" of police inaction seen by a majority of the report writers to acknowledge that serious errors were made -- as some of the report's staunchest critics in law enforcement and government have said freely to me off the record.

That said, I don't see why you would be expected to apologize. As I said earlier in the thread, I don't have a personal apology to make. The letter-writer feels moved to apologize for her ignorance of the history and related lack of compassion; that's her choice.

The question of an apology, or a statement of regret, from the City is another matter. I don't have a problem with the idea, I regret that it all happened, and I regret that law enforcement didn't prevent it.

I love my hometown, I am grateful to the police who protect it, and I'm pretty well integrated into the power structure the report holds partially responsible for the killings, but none of that makes me reject out of hand the idea of a statement of regret by the City.

Mr P,

As recently as last year the US Senate was considering a resolution "to acknowledge a long history of official depredations and ill-conceived policies by the United States Government regarding Indian tribes and offer an apology to all Native Peoples on behalf of the United States Government." I'm not sure of it's present status, but it seems long overdue to me.

I don't think a statement of regret by the City of Greensboro would be aimed only at the CWP, although communists (and Klansmen) have every right to expect adequate protection under the law, but also to the neighborhood terrorized by the shootings, and to all citizens who were rightly dismayed by the events and their aftermath, and by the role played of our law enforcement and justice systems.

Ed, I stand by my call on the T&R commission blackmail.

Oh and the so called resolution has been coming up for the last 50 years so don't hold your breath as I certainly won't. As far as I am concerned personally, no one owes me a dang dime and I certainly don't expect an apology nor need one. The people owed the apology are those still living in open prisons called reservations. Have you ever visited the infamous Cherokee reservation in Oklahoma Ed?The one in NC is not exactly the suburbs, more on the line of the ghetto. Go sometime if you haven't been. Or perhaps if you get the opportunity go to the Lakota/Sioux reservation at Redbud SDak or to Wolf Creek Montana. Third world doesn't describe it. I get sick to my stomach when I hear folks like the T&R commission and the commission on the 1898 fiasco calling for apologies and reparations. Heck Ed those folks are free. They can move to where ever they want. They can own property. They can go to "white mans" schools, not reservation schools. They are not still captives of the US Government who appoints overseers over them.Unemployment rates boarder on 70 plus percent. Alcoholism and drug addiction running at a rate of close to 50% and on some reservations it runs higher. Tell me Ed if this was in a Black community do you think we would ever hear the end of it? If this situation was occuring in G'boro, riots would run rampant. There would be calls for Congressional investigations. There would be a dozen committies formed to study it and to insure that the proper quota of Blacks were hired immediately to "set things right". Dozens of special social workers would be hired to deal with the addictions. Millions would be demanded to be poured into "education classes on diversity etc. But yet you hear nothing about American Indians not being hired as minority contractors.Nothing about special approprations for substance abuse workers. You hear more whining from the bleeding heart farleft over a bunch of dang illegal aliens than you ever hear about the American Indian.
Dang , slavery doesn't hold a candle to the American Indian's have suffered. Yet I hear no hue and cry over the condition of these people. Yes, Ed this BS of the T&R commission is just that in comparison.
Time for the commission to fold the tents and forget about the blackmail and let history be history.
In the meantime who crys for my people?

I knew only of the American Indian plight from readings until a few years ago. Especially enlightening was Eugenia Price's Savannah series. When we visited Wounded Knee, saw the living conditions of the survivors and read more, it was heart breaking.

While I love America, I am not unaware of the price many had to pay for the good life many of us live today. Much has been written about soldiers who fight for freedom. In some cases this is true. In some cases soldiers fight and die for causes which are not noble.

It's easy to sit back and judge others in whose shoes we have never walked.

The injustices against American Indians are huge and real, and worthy of ongoing discussion and action.

However, that does not preclude discussion of the Klan/Nazi killings.

Mr. Produce says,
"Dang, slavery doesn't hold a candle to the American Indian's have suffered"

Produce,
The Native Americans have definitely suffered, but your callous dismissal of slavery is unthinkable! Both groups suffered at the hands of our forefathers, and both have an ax to grind.
But your comment, listed again for all to see, is not only unenlightened, but unworthy of acknowledgement. I, only did so to make a point.

Ed Cone,
Thanks again for your Sunday piece and for your comments on this thread.

Thanks for the kind words, DD.

There is a tendency in these threads to proclaim that you can't talk about A unless you talk about B, but that's false logic. There are many wrongs in our past and present; this is a conversation about one of them. (It does seem to me that the same mentality that led to our Indian policy might credibly be linked to slavery, Jim Crow, and in some way to the TRC process.)

There is also a sentiment on this subject that "nobody is interested, so let's not talk about it." Obviously, some people are interested.

But unlike other subjects that people feel free to ignore, this one is being pushed into the public debate with the requests for a statement from the City, and for other public actions.

The TRC recommendations are all over the map. They are a discussion unto themselves, but even if all of them are rejected the report and the process and the history are still there.

Ed,

In your most recent posts, you mention a statement of regret by the city. I think that is a fine idea. I also believe the incident was very regrettable and everyone wishes it had never occured.

However,a statement of regret is quite different from an apology. A real apology anyway. A real apology has several parts. An admission of fault, a declaration to conform future behavior, and a request for the apology to be accepted. Without these parts, I submit you do not have a real apology, but merely a patronizing statement to appease.

Think about a married couple in an argument. The husband, at some point throws up his arms and say "Fine, whatever it was I did to you, I'm sorry." That is not a real apology. He is admitting no wrong, and the underlying issue has not been solved. He just doesn't want to hear the complaining any longer.

I see the same issue here with a request for this apology. You acknowledge that "we" had no direct connection to the shootings. Therefore, "we" do not need to apologize. To do otherwise would be insincere and patronizing.

Does the city government need to apologize? If they are to blame, then yes. Should they apologize merely to sooth hurt feelings? No, to do otherwise would be insincere and patronizing.

Was the city really at fault? I see that as the question. Whether they need to apologize is the answer to that question, not a question unto itself. On a further note, I would hardley view the T&R commission report as a definitive statement of who was wrong and in what capacity.

My cent and a half, anyway.

I just don't believe in one person apologizing for another's crime. I think it makes little sense for me to apologize because DD's forefathers may have owned slaves generations ago.

How about we look at the crime rate in this country. Should blacks as a whole apologize to the country because they are responsible for a high percentage of crimes? How many white people have been killed by black men? Is it more than were killed in the shootout of 1979? Should all black people apologize for the crimes of a few? I know that is ludicrous but no more than what is being talked about here.

I teach my child to apologize when he wrongs another person. However, I don't teach him to apologize for another child's actions that he wasn't involved in, didn't know, and occurred before he was born.

As far as the Native Americans, I'm not apologizing to them either. But I do see mrproduce's point.

Question about that. Are Native Americans free to leave their reservations? If so, then how can we blame anyone for their staying?

DD again you are ass uming something that I did not say. I hold to my statement and the facts will bear me out. Slavery was a terrible institution but it still fails to hold a candle to the treatment of the American Indian. I base that on past history and todays events. Do as I suggested to Ed and see for yourself and you will see that the American Indian is still beholding to the Slavemaster of the US Government. That, DD is a fact.

Yellowdog, the American Indian could leave the reservation if they were prepared to do so. They have been kept by the governmental slave masters for so long without a lot of training and education that it is difficult to move ahead. Some do and some make it but unfortunately the majority don't have the wherewithall to do such.It is very simular to someone who has been institutionalized their entire life suddenly being released into the world that they have really never know. I have seen it happen with men who have been in prision for many years. Coming out into the "real world" is a very frightening experience for them. Same with the Indians. I've seen it up close and personal YD maybe you should take a visit to a reservation someday. You would certainly understand much better. Oh, an no you do not owe me nor my ancestors an apology Rememeber the Black Slaves were freed by Lincoln in the 1860's. The American Indian is still waiting to be freed.

The problem with the Klan/CWP shootings is that they don't allegorize nicely. Who stands for whom? If, as the recommendations presume (but never show), the incident is about white privilege and black oppression (hence racism training as "restitution"), then how, precisely, is it? Answer: it really isn't, unless you uncritically accept (as the T&C folks do) the CWP as the representatives of the poor and downtrodden working selflessly for justice and a worker's paradise. If the city wants to express regret that it didn't protect a black neighborhood, fine, but there are a lot of gang shootings in black neighborhoods that the police don't prevent.

I think a process like this one aimed at the sit-ins would be productive; that was truly a collective event that implicated the broader culture. The shootings don't meet that standard.

Produce,
You live in your own little cocoon world. Stay in there. You proffer opinion as fact, and you are always an "expert" on the matter. Go get in your "Way Back Machine" and become Sgt York or Audie Murphy.
As one of your compadres on here would say, "let them pull themselves up by the bootstraps like everyone else"! I put YOUR quote up there for all the world to see. If you want to play "Who's the biggest victim" then go play by yourself. But if you want to have a meaningful discussion, don't make assinine comments:
"Dang, slavery doesn't hold a candle to the American Indians have suffered"

YD, a statement from the City would not be about one person apologizing for another person's wrongdoing, it would be the City expressing regret for a terrible thing that happened here, and possibly expressing regret for the role of the City in allowing it to happen.

I do think Pitts argument about collective pride above is food for thought, though.

Swanks, apologizing may have legal ramifications that go further than the City can or should go. Some statement acknowledging the messed-upness of this happening here would be more than we've done to date. Going further to express regret for the City's role might be feasible, given the fact a civil judgment has already been paid.

I don't have the answers -- but I think this conversation, wherever it may go, is the TRC process at work.

Brian, I think you are correct, the recommendations are frustrating to me, as was the political point-of-view of the report.

mrproduce,

The only 'reservation' I have been to is Cherokee and I'm not sure it qualifies as to what you are addressing. The whole native American situation in this country is unbelievable to me. The fact that we still have reservations so many years after Europeans basically conquered this country through superior technology and disease amazes me. In most societies, the conquered would either be exterminated, ran off, or melded into the rest of the population. Instead, this country has kept reservations intact and separate after all these years. Makes no sense to me.

Are the Natives an oppressed people? I don't know. Some would say it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. But how many conquered people can still maintain their heritage hundreds of years later, live on protected land, and be free to come and go as they please?

Historically, it is intriguing. I would agree that Native Americans were probably treated worse than slaves, overall. But it is still hard for me to feel sympathy for folks who wallow in their misery when there are so many freedoms and opportunities in this country. As bad as the poor and downtrodden in this country think they are, they are still rich by the world's comparisons. I guess there is always somebody who has got it worse than somebody else.

DD what an idiot you make of yourself everytime you open your mouth. Anyone with a brain can read what I wrote and I stand by it. Do you have a problem with people attaining knowledge? It would seem that you do. Evidently the only knowledge you can retain, and that seems to be only for the moment, is some stupid comment you wish to make toward someone who has a clue of what is going on in the world. It is evident that you know nothing of the plight of the American Indian or you would not be making such assine remarks as you do.
You see Deac, the difference in us is that when I offer opinion I can back it with fact. You can only back yours with heresay or twisted facts that you get from your beloved Air America buddies.
No one is playing victim Deac. I am simply stating the plight of a group of Americans, and I do that from first hand information and experience, that ignorant individual like you have no clue about and don't want to know anything about because it might mess up your little "me" world.
As I said I don't expect anyone to apologize to me nor make reparations. My financial situation is well above comfortable compared to most people my age. I am comfortable with who I am, because I know who I am. It is evident by that you do not truely know yourself. If you did you would have grown up and stopped making such an idiot of yourself everytime you make a post and probably every time you open your mouth in public or private. AS far as your having a meaningful discussion that is impossible. You see Ed seemed to recognize the statement and did make educated and understanding comments ,unlike you Deac. Keep trying Deac, one day you may learn that assine remarks and smarta-- remarks that you always seem to want to interject regardless of the subject will get you nowhere. You are looked upon with disdain by the majority of the people on these blogs just because of you ignorant remarks. How does it feel not to be respected or liked Deac? Or perhaps you are so wrapped up, as you accuse others of being, in your own little spite filled world that you aren't even aware of it. You are to be pitied if anything Deac. I certainly hope that you will grow up one of these days and attempt to make a contribution to the world around you.

Oh, brother. Produce, give it a rest. You can't even admit when you are wrong, so just cool your jets, take your medicine, quit patronizing, and get over yourself.
******************
Everyone else, just carry on.

deamondeacon, I've read most of your posts here of late.
I'm a bit troubled that you have never, ever quoted one single piece of evidence to support any of your positions.
While we all get a chuckle out of your opinions, are you sure you're really contributing here?

jcackbar,
How about explaining your nom de plume to the others who post here. They might be interested in knowing the sifnificance of it.

Deac, sorry, but I don't do requests.

I would urge people to read this comment for more discussion of apologies and reconcilation, and what the process is ultimately about.

http://edcone.typepad.com/wordup/2006/06/hoggard_and_rec.html#comment-18249884