"Are they afraid that some student might see the picture and wonder who this Jesus is?"

How, in the name of all that is good and wholesome, could any student, living in bloody West Virginia or anywhere else in the United States of by-gum America NOT know who Jesus was?

Why does this person think that a public school should be doing the work that the Christian church is supposed to do? If the Christians need the help of the government to advertise thier beliefs, they must be totally lazy. They really should be ashamed of themselves if they are that big of a failure.

I say, "Right on, ACLU!" Do whatever it takes to make the Christians do their own darn advertising, and keep the schools in the business of edumacating.

Are they afraid that some student might see the picture and wonder who this Jesus is?"

No Chris, they are afraid that some kid just might decide to follow Jesus' teachings and that is counter to what the ACLU stands for. (That being the protection of child molesters, terrorists, etc.)

Kids are forced to attend the government indoctrination system in order to learn what global warming and racism is, not to learn what Jesus stood for.

neoCON,
You are an interesting bloke to be promoting the teachings of Jesus! Last time I checked, you all about war, amassing fortunes and corporations running our government. What happened?

This letter highlights the exact reason why the picture shouldn't be in the school hallway - a government entity should not be promoting a specific religion. I wonder if he would feel the picture should remain if rather than portraying Jesus, it was a picture of Mohammed, or a Buddah, or L. Ron Hubbard?

The ALCU is doing exactly what it is suppose to do, protect the liberties of ALL people. Non-Christian Americans should not be forced to live by Christian ideation. The government should not be pushing any religion over another. By allowing a likeness (or man's interpretation) of Jesus in a government building, they are allowing one religious belief to trump all others. As nemo and Potato Stew has pointed out, this IS NOT the responsibility of our government. And by do so, the government is breaking the law (kinda like "W" and his wire-tap operation).

Thank God, Allah, Jesus, Jehovah, Bhudda et al, that there is an ACLU!

Boy, you liberals must really be scare of religious objects. Pictures of Christian objects, words like "In God We Trust." The Ten Commandments, are anything thing else that use to be the norm thur out this country's history.

What use to be part of this nations norm is now being attacked by a group of people, who for what ever their reasons, are trying to destroy.

The only rights your side is interested in is yours. Everyone else rights means nothing to you. What ever you want is suppose to be what everyone else is suppose to have, no more no less. You don't believe in freedom for all but dictataorship to what you think is right.

Don't even go to the part as to what should or shouldn't be taught in school. Public school, under liberal teachings have decline for 30 yrs. We have kids graduating that can't even read an application for a job. Public education is a going down fast, thanks to you liberals. That is why you fight against the Vocher programs. And home schooling. Even though they work better the public schools.

We have a war going on by a group of terrorist, who like you want to destroy christianity, and anything else not Muslim, who seem to be your best friend. Everytime we have a program in place to combat them, your side want to do away with it. So don't use the rights claim, it doesn't wash with common sense.

Need to put in my two cent's worth of opinion.

First there is no such thing as a picture of Jesus. None of know what he looked like. Artists have portrayed his image many ways. To me worshiping a picture is like worshiping an image.

Second, as many have written, and this applies to oral prayer in school, there are many religions in America, always have been. We need to respect one another. We can pray in silence anytime and anywhere we want.

When America starts following the teachings of Jesus, I will be happy. Words and objects do not reflect religion. Actions do.

The schools are failing because of poor discipline and lack of desire to learn on the part of students, has nothing to do with prayer in school or religion.

Also, since the "liberals" have been out of power for 5 years, let's stop blaming all the bad things in schools on them.

Sorry Carol, that doesn't wash. Your side, the liberals, have been in charge of public education now for at lest for 30 to 40 years at the local levels. It doesn't matter who was elected president or to congress on the federal level. Liberals are integrated through the education levels from k-12 and heavy in the college leavels. So don't use that your sides in charge bull.

You're partically right on one thing, your side will let any religion, except christianity, be taught or discuss in school. An you know it.

You are also right that actions are what needs to be judged.Your side will be judgesd on the actions your side has taken to suppress christain beliefs and how your willing brothers and sisters in the press have help in the process. As of right now Islam is the only religion that is getting a free pass by your side.

Lets remove the picture of Jesus and put up a picture of Mohammad. Would you like that, Chris? There is supposed to be a separation of church and state in this country [even though the current administration is 'blurring' that line]. The picture of a religious figure has no business in any public building, especially in a school.

Nice, broad brush you have there, Bobby. I guess I must not be liberal, because I'm not scared of religious objects, I think having "In God We Trust" on our money is fine, and I think there may be some merit to school vouchers. Home schooling is fine, as long as the child is able to meet certain educational standards. Yet, I also don't think that a public school has any business promoting any one specific religion.

It sounds like you think the picture is fine. Maybe you could answer my earlier question: Would you feel the picture should remain if rather than portraying Jesus, it was a picture of Mohammed, or Buddha, or L. Ron Hubbard? How about if it was a picture of one of the Wiccan gods or goddesses?

"Your side will be judgesd on the actions your side has taken to suppress christain beliefs"

No one is suppressing Christian beliefs here. Everyone is free to believe as they wish, and to worship as they choose at home, at church, and even in public. The issue is that an agent of the government - the school in this case - does not have the right to endorse a specific religion.

To use a good Quaker phrase; That Friend (nemo, Carol, Deacon, Yvonne, Potato) speaks my mind!"

Nothing more need be said from my perspective.

Each is allowed to speak and hold his/her belief without ANY fear.

Shalom

Sorry, but I'm old enough to remember when we had prayer in school, we could have christmas programs in school, halloween program, easter programs and guess what, that was normal through out this whole country. Now, that is looked upon as over the top. Your side said that was religious indoctrinating. Funny, I alway that it was good clean wholesome fun and that it was something that was good for kids. I can't see why your side is so afraid of that being in schools. Maybe drugs are better for your side, I don't know.

You'll are more upset over this then the fact that the education level of public schools are going down. And have been for a lot of years. I think you need to get your priorities in order.

No one has ever forced belief on any child. You are free to believe in anything or one of your choice, or none at all. The fact that you don't like what was the normal since this country was found is what you don't like. So don't you ever talk to us about who discriminates. Your side is the master on that.

"Maybe drugs are better for your side"

Sorry, I hadn't realized those were the only two choices: Either pictures of Jesus hanging in the halls, or kids smoking crack between classes.

"You'll are more upset over this then the fact that the education level of public schools are going down. And have been for a lot of years. I think you need to get your priorities in order."

Again, a flase dilemma. One can be concerned about both situations at the same time. Just because a person wants to keep the government from endorsing religion doesn't mean that person can't be concerned about the quality of education in our schools.

Finally, Bobby, why won't you answer the question? Would you feel the picture should remain if rather than portraying Jesus, it was a picture of Mohammed, or Buddha, or L. Ron Hubbard? How about if it was a picture of one of the Wiccan gods or goddesses?

OK PS, I will answer your question, I don't require that his picture is displayed, never have , never will. What I don't like is that someone or a group of kids that want to start a christian study group on their on time after school hours, like other groups do, aren't allowed to because it religion. That is real discrimination. School grounds are use by a lot of organization, so what is the problem, their not forcing anyone to join.

Or if someone want to say a prayer at a ballgame, or at graduation, because a very small number may not like it, its not allowed. Their not force to agree or listen to it. So who is forcing their beliefs on who.

Now PS tell us all of your main concerns with what is happening at public school.Since they are funded by all of our tax dollars, I want to know if they are spending all of our tax dollars as the should be to get the most education for our children. Are you satisfied with the involvment of the teacher union with how they are involved with the things they are, and I laugh, teaching our public school children. Waiting for your answer.

Come on PS, I answered your, now you answer mine. I am waiting to see what is most important to you about our tax paid public schools. Education or worried about someting involving religion. And don't say both. Which one worrys you the most?

I fall in the middle on this issue for sure. However, in this case, I agree with the ACLU. If we were talking about a painting that said, "In God We Trust" on it, that might be a different story, depending on the paintings significance and meaning to the school and/or town. This letter is talking about a picture of Jesus, which I do believe is in violation of the Constitution.

I can't stand this issue! In general, it seems that overly sensitive Christians, Jews and Atheists are always whining about this issue. Let's not forget the trouble making zealots who do things like putting up pictures of Jesus in a school to cause trouble.

As for the criticisms of the ACLU, I think its curious how the right only mentions the cases the ACLU takes on that are unpopular or do not go their way. Click the link below to see a video about the ACLU coming to the rescue of Abbey Moler. She was a valedictorian who was forbidden from putting words of wisdom from the Bible in her yearbook. The ACLU defended her case. It is interesting for those with open minds and disappointing to those who like demonizing the ACLU.

http://aclu.tv/episodes/religiousfreedom

For the one case you did just pick, us "right wingers" can show you 10 that go the other way. I personal have NO use for the ACLU. They have done this country more harm then any good they have caused.

I'm sure you can find ACLU court cases that pissed off theocratic Christians. To that I say, "Good job!" Just for fun Bobby, give me 10 examples.

"What I don't like is that someone or a group of kids that want to start a christian study group on their on time after school hours, like other groups do, aren't allowed to because it religion."

Bobby, the Fellowship of Christian Athletes is a group that meets after school hours. They are not a "study group" per se. But, they meet at school as far as I know. Culture War hysteria is so easy to expose. Just look at what goes on in reality.

SD answer your on question, LOOK at reality

Hi Bobby,

"OK PS, I will answer your question, I don't require that his picture is displayed, never have , never will."

Thank you for considering my question, I appreciate it. However, I wasn't asking if you would *require* the display of the picture, I was asking if you would still feel it should remain hanging in the hall if it was a picture of another religious figure - say Mohammed, or the Virgin Mary for instance.

What I don't like is that someone or a group of kids that want to start a christian study group on their on time after school hours, like other groups do, aren't allowed to because it religion.

I agree 100%. The courts do as well - schools are required to give equal access to religious groups for after school activities if their facilities are also open to non-religious groups. More to the point, the ACLU also agrees with you. They have spoken in favor of that sort of equal access in instances such as the Lamb's Chapel case, when they sided with a Christian group who wanted to use school facilities.

The case at hand, however, is not a group of students meeting after school of their own accord. This involves school officials hanging a portait of a religious figure on school property during school hours. Again, would you feel the same if it was a picture of Mohammed, or the Pope?

"I want to know if they are spending all of our tax dollars as the should be to get the most education for our children. Are you satisfied with the involvment of the teacher union with how they are involved with the things they are"

They should absolutely be spending our money wisely. As for teacher's unions, I must admit that I don't have a lot of insight into their impact or their workings. As I have children who will soon be in public schools, I'll have to bring myself up to speed on those issues, but at this point I can't give an informed answer to that specific item.

"Come on PS, I answered your, now you answer mine."

I had to eat dinner and spend time with my family - sorry to have kept you waiting.

"I am waiting to see what is most important to you about our tax paid public schools. Education or worried about someting involving religion. And don't say both. Which one worrys you the most?"

From a personal standpoint, educational issues are more important - since I and my family are Christian, I don't think things like the portrait would be much of a concern from a *personal* standpoint. The fact that we have these lawsuits, giving the courts a chance to see that people's rights are being looked out for also eases my mind. However, I can empathize with those from different religious backgrounds, and there are individual cases that do concern me, and would especially concern me if I were a religious minority. For instance, in Southern Delaware, a Jewish family was basically run out of town for requesting that their school officials tone down the sectarian religious speech at school events. I find the attitude of some of the parents in that incident very worrisome.

Bobby, SW High and many other high schools have very active FCA groups. I have always supported them and they do great work. They have prayer around the flag pole before school whenever they choose. They meet before or after school on school grounds. Is this enough for you?

And you know, we can all pray whenever we wish. Again, the right is using these mistruths to get elected and scare the public. No one is trying to wipe out Christians. The issue I see is that those who are not Christians should not be subjected to things which they do not embrace.

What about American Civil Liberities do you find offensive? Please cite cases where they have failed to defend a civil liberty.

Also, there are NO teacher unions in NC. By the time teachers get their students ready for EOC tests, they have no time to brainwash your kids with "liberal" evil thoughts. Chill...stop believing all the scare tacticts that are thrown your way. Worship as you choose, let others have the same benefit.

As a former Greensboro resident now living in Austin, Texas, I enjoy reading the News & Record online to keep abreast of how things are back home. It brings a grin of nostalgia to see that the same people as always use the letters to the editor to air their quibbles, and, until now, I've enjoyed just sitting back and reading along. However, this particular discussion begs me to inject my opinion into the mix. It appears to me that a certain somebody arguing on behalf of the right in this case continually litters his comments with gross mispellings and repeated grammatical errors. With this white elephant now identified, does it not now stand to reason that the public schools obviously have failed this person on something as basic and standard as teaching him the rules of his native language? All the obvious constitutional issues aside, given the fact that the public schools could not even teach him English, does he really think they have the ability to instruct their students on a matter as complex as Christianity or any other religion for that matter? Furthermore, do you have so little confidence in your church's ability to promote its own doctrines that you feel the need to turn to the government to evangelize the "heathen" population?

Here is the mission statement from the aclu:

The American system of government is founded on two counterbalancing principles: that the majority of the people governs, through democratically elected representatives; and that the power even of a democratic majority must be limited, to ensure individual rights.

Majority power is limited by the Constitution's Bill of Rights, which consists of the original ten amendments ratified in 1791, plus the three post-Civil War amendments (the 13th, 14th and 15th) and the 19th Amendment (women's suffrage), adopted in 1920.

The mission of the ACLU is to preserve all of these protections and guarantees:

Your First Amendment rights-freedom of speech, association and assembly. Freedom of the press, and freedom of religion supported by the strict separation of church and state.

Your right to equal protection under the law - equal treatment regardless of race, sex, religion or national origin.

Your right to due process - fair treatment by the government whenever the loss of your liberty or property is at stake.

Your right to privacy - freedom from unwarranted government intrusion into your personal and private affairs.
We work also to extend rights to segments of our population that have traditionally been denied their rights, including Native Americans and other people of color; lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people; women; mental-health patients; prisoners; people with disabilities; and the poor.

If the rights of society's most vulnerable members are denied, everybody's rights are imperiled.

The ACLU was founded by Roger Baldwin, Crystal Eastman, Albert DeSilver and others in 1920. We are nonprofit and nonpartisan and have grown from a roomful of civil liberties activists to an organization of more than 500,000 members and supporters. We handle nearly 6,000 court cases annually from our offices in almost every state.

The ACLU has maintained the position that civil liberties must be respected, even in times of national emergency. The ACLU is supported by annual dues and contributions from its members, plus grants from private foundations and individuals. We do not receive any government funding.

i have a connection to the removal of prayer in school: schempp v abingdon schools was sc case in 1962. schempp is my distant cousin. we share the same ggg grand parents. it was not that he did not believe in God but was a unitarian and did not believe in the trinity. a very fascinating case.

i agree that some cases go to far but imagine a world without some type of aclu.

Thanks for the info, Don. I really don't see how any freedom loving person could object to the ACLU.

Bobby,
You climb out from under your rock and spew some absolutely ridiculous thoughts. Who has brainwashed you into believing the ACLU is a bogeyman just waiting to take away your rights???

It is quite the opposite and it is proveable beyond doubt---just look at the history of the organization! Religion has its place and it is NOT to be endorsed by any government. If your faith were stronger, your "fear" might not be so touchy. Your arguments are bogus and make no sense whatsoever.

My sentiments exactly, DD. Not only can he not spell, but it appears Bobby has so little faith, he doesn't feel the Church is up to the task of doing a job NOT intended for the government. I pride myself on being secure enough in my faith to not feel threatened by others' religions or lack thereof.

Here's something Bobby might appreciate: The ACLU is defending Fred Phelps and his 'church' family's 'right' to picket gay funerals.

Bobby & neoCON seem to have a symbiotic relationship when it comes to posting here. They may both be in the same group home.

Heck, Demon, I thought you and Bobby were the same person.

I agree with Carol and others that there is really no legimitate reason for a picture of Jesus in a public school. I'd also agree that there is no such thing. I've been to churches where Jesus is black, asian, white with blue eyes, etc. As far as putting a picture of Mohammed in the school, I think you'd have some angry Muslims on your hand if you did.

I can agree with Bobby's assessment that some people seem almost terrified that someone might mention something about Christianity. I also agree with him that political correctness has taken a lot of fun out of our holiday celebrations.

I will have to pick at one of Carol's statements:

"The issue I see is that those who are not Christians should not be subjected to things which they do not embrace"

Wow, wouldn't that be an interesting world to live in? I don't embrace homosexuality, humanism, the theory of evolution,etc. Therefore, no mention of it should be made in our schools.

Sorry, but I'm going to continue praying in public, sometimes aloud. It is tradition and religion that causes my family to pray before meals. We do it aloud and often even hold hands. Sorry, if you don't embrace that, but you're still going to be subjected to it.

Nit, what you and your family do in a restaurtant or at home or any other gathering is totally your own business. It would in no way offend or upset me or anyone else that I know. If you do it in a public classroom, that is another story. My comment related to what happens at a public school. If you need pictures portraying Jesus or open prayers, send you kids to a church school.

Evolution is science...which is a school subject. If kids are taught at home that it is a lie, they will have the opportunity to learn the theory of evolution and make their own decisions. That is what we want our kids to do...think, listen, reason, and decide.

Homosexuality is not a school subject..it is not taught. If it is discussed, it is in a logical way...again, make up your own mind after you are exposed to the facts.

Humanism would only be discussed is a philosophy or psychology or religion class. Again, learn what it is. Embrace it if you feel led or totally disregard it.

Some school teach classes in religion. It is an exploration of various religions, their origins, and beliefs. It is not about which is right and which is wrong. As a Quaker, I wouldn't want my kids told that they were going to hell if they weren't baptised. Baptists and many others wouldn't want their kids told that they didn't have to be baptised. They do need to know about other beliefs.

Education is about exposure to many ideas, theories, and facts. An educated person is one who can think and make decisions with an open mind.

FYI, kids in school are not bothered by having a Winter Break or a Spring Break. They can celebrate the religions aspects with their family and church.

Carol,

I think we agree for the most part. I don't need pictures of Jesus or formal prayers in my kid's schools.

You may be correct that kids are not bothered by Winter Break or Spring Break. However, I have fond memories of Christmas parties (which had very little to do with Christ in any way), Halloween festivities, Easter egg hunts, etc.
The only person I can remember who was bothered by some of these things was a friend of mine named Leonard who's parents were Jehovah Witnesses. And really, it wasn't Leonard who was bothered by it. I'll say I disagree with you on this issue. I think those holiday centered events were part of our culture that should never be removed from our schools. And, yeah, a lot of kids can probably get those events elsewhere. However, a lot of kids don't.

Religion seems to be one of the more volatile subjects which we discuss here. To me, religion is another version of diversity, a concept which also seems to be problematic for us. My concern about the "Jesus Painting" is that a good intention can be very devisive especially when prominently displayed in a religiously pluralistic public educational facility; or any other public building. When we display only one of a kind religious symbol, we get tremendous reactions: those for, those against, the where is my religious picture, I don't want my religious picture displayed, my God is better or more prominent than yours etc. It gets to the point at times that, frankly, I don't know what the real issue is. Religion is personal and communal--different concepts and different practices. I am a christian and I am not for the Jesus painting. I want to enjoin and learn and respect; to see the value, joy and beliefs of other faiths. I don't want my concept of christianity to be a factor in devisiveness.

Since this comment thread, like every other comment thread on the N&R letters, is an exercise in pointless argument and abuse, I'll confine myself to this remark.

Was I the only one who noticed that the headline given to this letter refers to "Jesus's photo"?

I'd sure like to see that photograph....if we could get a camera back there, it would clear up a lot of questions!