This is one of those discussion topics where neither side is willing to give an inch.

Creationism via lte, followed by evolution into a verbal slugfest.

I plan to just sit this one out.

I just love how people enjoy posting "I'm not going to say anything" as a blog entry. The irony tickles.

{;-)

http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309064066/html/2.html

Fact: In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as "true." Truth in science, however, is never final, and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow.

Hypothesis: A tentative statement about the natural world leading to deductions that can be tested. If the deductions are verified, it becomes more probable that the hypothesis is correct. If the deductions are incorrect, the original hypothesis can be abandoned or modified. Hypotheses can be used to build more complex inferences and explanations.

Law: A descriptive generalization about how some aspect of the natural world behaves under stated circumstances.

Theory: In science, a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that can incorporate facts, laws, inferences, and tested hypotheses.

The contention that evolution should be taught as a "theory, not as a fact" confuses the common use of these words with the scientific use. In science, theories do not turn into facts through the accumulation of evidence. Rather, theories are the end points of science. They are understandings that develop from extensive observation, experimentation, and creative reflection. They incorporate a large body of scientific facts, laws, tested hypotheses, and logical inferences. In this sense, evolution is one of the strongest and most useful scientific theories we have.

Bottom line, whether or not some people care too admit it, evolution is a scientifically documented and accepted fact.

Excellent letter, and not just for the first-rate Danny Bonaduce namecheck.

... and well stated by Rebel Snake too .. one might also state Theorys Evolve.

==

BTW - I must be getting old, 'cause I woulda sworn Danny Bonaduce did a series of commercials that started, "I'm not the President of the United States, but I play one on TV."

Maybe that's just a theory. Oh well.

I’ve already given my evil scientific speech on this issue. I’ll just make a simple observation this time. Has anyone really watched the chimpanzees up close at the Asheboro Zoo or anywhere else? If you can look at them and still totally reject the idea of evolution, I don’t know if anything can convince you. It’s sad that people let religion make them go through denial. Don’t we have enough situations in life that make us want to go into that mode? Why deny the wonder of God’s creation like that?

Holy syllogistic coherence, Batman, a logical letter to the editor on the subject of evolution!!!

Stevie D., your observation is a good one--I've thought the same thing myself. But you've defined the precise limit of evolutionary thinking. Once you get to human populations, the question of selective pressures becomes absolutely taboo. Ask Larry Summers. If evolution is a valid theory, should we not extend it to the human animal as well?

i have a theory :
the truth of the matter is that i have no facts which can support my truth but that is indeed a fact. the fact that i have no sustainable proof of my truth does not negate the truth of my fact. so it seems that my truth cannot be proven by facts and that is both a truth and a fact.

another theory :
some who watch this video will giggle like little school girls and others will begin to wonder.....

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D_Y4J2IpJ1Bo&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D8a8208280f1fbcd3%26clickedItemRank%3D1%26userQuery%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253D_Y4J2IpJ1Bo%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253D_Y4J2IpJ1Bo%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPResultsT%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%253Fv%253D_Y4J2IpJ1Bo

Buz,

I liked the video. Is it not said in the Bible that Heaven and Earth will someday become one? I am not a Bible expert. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. I won't be offended. But, if that's true, how do people come up with the idea of Rapture? I have read that it's a relatively new idea in Christianity (since the 1800’s) that not all Christians accept.

It seems to me that there are stories in the Bible and a subset of stories that have been invented alongside the stories in the actual text. Some believe there will literally be a seven-headed beast that rises out of the ocean during “Armageddon”. On the other hand, some believe that is a metaphorical description of the powers that be. Which is it? Who cares? Be kind to others and I think it will all be OK. Maybe the seven-headed beast will be Darwin's head and six monkey heads.

Stevie D,

As much as I like to fling poop at my adversaries, I reject the comparison to monkeys.

While watching the chimpanzees, did you wonder why they weren't human?

The only thing I wonder is how anyone can take that video and Revelations seriously. The whole last days scenario was two thousand years ago. The beast was Emperor Nero and Jesus said he was coming back within the listener's lifetime, which as we all know never occurred. People need to give up these silly little fairy tales and start living in the real world with the rest of us.

stEviEd,
i cannot say that i am familiar with any scripture which states that heaven and earth will be one. actually in the revelation is a description and the exact size of heaven. it is quite possible that the understanding of the rapture is something that has been revealed in more recent times. any serious student of scripture understands that God reveals on His time schedule not ours. and certainly all Christians do not accept this, but i often wonder is those who don't,simply are following their churches tradition/teaching or have they actually studied for themselves and asked for enlightenment. for in the scriptures is where the rapture is explained.
remember that john (while in the isle of patmos) was given these visions of the future (end times) and it may be possible that what he saw (seven headed beast) was some piece of advanced military hardware and the only terms he could describe in were terms he was familiar with, then again the beast may well be literal,figurative or metaphorical. imo to get hung up on those type of issues in revelation really detract the the overall message. being kind to others is a good thing for sure but in and of itself it will not gain your entrance into the kingdom of heaven.

rSnaKe,
please permit me to live in my silly little fairy tale world, i really like it here ! i love it when an atheist comes on blog and tries to explain the scriptures, it's just laughable. and just like satan misquoted scripture to Jesus during His temptation, you also miscomprehend the Word of God, His words are spiritually discerned and to your misfortune i believe you don't qualify.

" ... being kind to others is a good thing for sure but in and of itself it will not gain your entrance into the kingdom of heaven."

Buz: Are you a Terrorist? (just busting on you)

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but here's a true story: I was having dinner a couple weeks ago with some friends - she is a true believer, as is her sister who was also there. For some reason we were talking about Islam vs. Christina heaven, they mentioned it kinda crazy that some Islam believers think blowing themselves and other up in the name of Allah would earn them 72 virgins in Heaven.

While I won't defend them blowing up others - I'm more than OK with them blowing up themselves - I asked how believing there were 72 virgins waiting for them in Heaven was any different than some in my church that expect to meet in heaven their long-gone great-grand-daddy.

Then I told this joke - a personal favorite:

The old lady tells here husband they need to start eating bran muffins so they can be healthy on earth. After 15 years they both die and go to heaven.

St. Peter asks the lady what she wants - she says just a decent home. They are taken to their own personal mansion with servants galore. The old lady says she can't afford this, and St. Peter says, "Hey - it's heaven, all things are provided".

St. Peter asks the man what he wants - he wants an occasional round of golf. They are taken to Augusta then Scotland - all the renowned courses. The old man says he can't afford this, and St. Peter says, "Hey - it's heaven, all things are provided".

The old man turns to his wife and says: If it weren't for those bran muffins, we could have been here 15 years ago.

>>rSnaKe,
please permit me to live in my silly little fairy tale world, i really like it here ! i love it when an atheist comes on blog and tries to explain the scriptures, it's just laughable. and just like satan misquoted scripture to Jesus during His temptation, you also miscomprehend the Word of God, His words are spiritually discerned and to your misfortune i believe you don't qualify.<<

I always find it quite amusing these days when believers use the "spiritually discerned" arguement as if that helps someone to comprehend the written word. FYI, in the bible satan misquoted but didn't "miscomprehend" anything.

as you gaze at the primates in the zoo, it is natural to begin to be in awe of what G-d created and unfortunately then to worship the creation when it is the Creator who is to be worshipped...

rsnAkE,
i said satan misquoted and YOU miscomprehend....but i am not certain whether satan really did comprehend the scriptures, imo if he did, he would never have instigated the Jews and the romans to crucify Jesus. for that event truly started the clock ticking against satan.

jdr,
kind of a funny joke.....but whether fortunate or unfortunate, those who are married here on earth and make it to heaven are no longer married....just a technical point . :-)

" ... those who are married here on earth and make it to heaven are no longer married ... "

... or so you believe. I'll bet that not a universal Christian interpretation, which is why there are Baptists and Catholics and Jehovah's Witness' and a few hundred other Bible-based religions.

... then there're the infidels: Jews, Muslims, and a few hundred other non-Bible-based religions.

Just a technical point.

well i have actually never seen it written nor even have i heard anyone say that judaism was not Bible based which means i can only speculate that rockefeller has only experienced secular/tribal 'judaism' which prevails here in the US and gaining strength in Israel...but in the good old days when Jews came to the US in the early 1800s it was a Bible-based religion...but the US jews 'evolved' into Atheists in less than 200 years...

now as for including Jehovah's Witness and others like the Mormons who believe that their families are intact in Heaven, those beliefs are what make them Christian cults, not Bible based mainstream Christianity, because those beliefs of intact family in Heaven are based on texts outside of the Bible...

You are right, I am wrong, J4J. I should have said non-Jesus-based.

jdr,
read mat.22:23-30 - paying particular attention to what Jesus said in vs.30.
also read mrk.12:18-25 - paying attention to vs.25.
as far as i am concerned there isn't much "intepreting" here imo. clearly Jesus said there is no marriage in heaven and that the angels currently enjoy that status and we will join their ranks. but i understand the need for some (if not many) to try and put some 'other' meaning to Jesus's obvious answer.

Buz, I disagree with how you posited your little question:
You wrote: The truth of the matter is that I have no facts which can support my truth....

should read: The truth of the THEORY is that I have no facts which can support my THEORY.....

The phrase: "The truth of the matter", can be interchanged with this phrase "As a matter OF FACT, I have no facts......

Cute but is not a tight argument.

It seems to me that "if" the christian god actually existed and created the entire universe, he ought to be able to write a book that people can understand without all the bickering about "interpretations".

These creationism vs. evolution arguments never cease to astound me in the sense that no one on either side ever sees one possibility that LEAPS out at me: creation and evolution as one. Has it ever occurred to anyone that perhaps evolution is the means through which the Creator creates? If one looks at the __TWO__ distinct creation stories in Genesis, it becomes obvious that the writers were merely trying to bring the act of creation into a context they could understand. The descriptions given of the heavens, earth, firmaments, waters, etc. present a picture of a tiered universe that has long since been proven inaccurate by astronomers and more recently by space exploration. Yet, if one looks at the sequence of the creation of life in the stories, it is uncannily parallel to the sequence in which evolution is said to have occurred -- with life beginning in the waters and eventually from there making its way into the air and onto the land. For those of us willing to open our minds to the possibility of religion and science sharing a natural coexistence, this observation opens up enormous possibilities. The writers could see "the heavens and the earth." Therefore, they described what they saw. (It's harder to hear divine inspiration when something is already physically present, even if you end up missing the forest for the trees, as in their desciprion of the universe.) But when it came to something to which they could not bear witness -- the creation of life -- divine ispiration came into play allowing the writers to at least get the order correct. Of course, this posting brings to the table my own personal theology, and is not meant to try to convince anyone of anything. I present all this to you as a THEORY. (Which, now that I think about it, brings us back to square one . . . but at least my theory recognizes that the other two theories need not be mutually exlusive.)

jJoE,
you got me on that one---it's now one to zip :-)