"it only states that churches that endorse, bless and promote homosexuality are not in friendly cooperation with our convention"...

Tom, in today's PC environment, this is an out and out "attack" on homosexuals and their lifestyle. In order to be in their good graces, one must not only accept them, but promote their lifestyle, and believe that their being "gay" is no different than someone being left handed or having blue eyes. Anything short of this will quickly get you tagged as a "homophobic redneck", "narrow minded" and of course the old parrot standby, "myopic".

Those who hold themselves up as the most "tolerant" and "open minded" among us seem to lose all their compassion when when someone like the SBC takes a stand on what they believe and has the guts to say it. (on a billboard no less!! the gall!!!) Those who seek to 'understand' a religion that preaches death and destruction, have no tolerance at all for the Baptists and their stated belief that homosexuality is a sin.

The homosexuals are the latest victim group in a long line of 'victims' this country has produced in the last 50 years or so.

This issue really needs to be one in which everyone agrees to disagree.

The Southern Baptists hold a certain belief about homosexuality. This belief is gleaned from their reading and interpretations of the bible. This is an issue for them to decide, not for everyone else to decide on their behalf. To do otherwise reaks of the same religious intolerance as the SBC's are being accused of.

My interpretation and beliefs should not be infringed upon by anyone else. I do not go around attempting to point out the fallacy in other's beliefs, even ones that I do find in error.

This country was founded with the idea of being a haven for certain unpopular religons and the seperation clause is intended to keep the freedom of religion truly free.

Let me believe what I will, and I will allow you to do the same.

"Anything short of this will quickly get you tagged as a "homophobic redneck", "narrow minded" and of course the old parrot standby, "myopic"."

Bingo. Last week I was called in this blog, and I quote, "A homophobe of the worst kind". This for simply stating that the SBC has the right to adhere to their core beliefs.

It's so blatently obvious and ironic that the same crowd that glorifies tolerance, diversity and inclusivenesss becomes very intolerant and exclusive of anyone who does not subscribe to their beliefs.

Meanwhile I asked, where is all the outcry about Islam? I posted some info about the punishment for homosexuality in Islam which includes 100 lashings or, more commonly, death by stoning. Silence except for one who stated that Islam doesn't affect our daily lives in the South. Amazing how Islam gets a pass, I've yet to see an LTE addressing stoning of gays and I thought this same crowd was so concerned about human rights.

LOL Dan

The islamic community isnt running down homosexuals and kicking them out into the cold like the SBC. Or if they are, they are doing it very very low key. kinda like the Michael Richards thing. If there wasnt video and recorded dialogue, I dont think it would be as big as it is now. However, as soon as a gay muslim in the south gets his head bashed and all that, the public will go on a tirade against islamic law. but we all know by now that it seems impossible to stick to one particular subject when it comes to islam. It will start off with the public not liking islamic laws against gays, then it will jump to burkahs and them not assimilating into our culture and then something will link it back to 9/11, Same M.O.; different day.

This is why there are so many different denominations and so many different faiths. Where some see ostracization, others will see opportunity. Welcome to the Alternative Baptist Church.

6string,

The SBC is running down and kicking homosexuals out in the cold? Really? Must have missed that.

Swanks,

I thought you said it very well. As Neocon and Dan also mentioned, tolerance for others beliefs should be a 2 way street. I think some folks' idea of tolerance is that you should agree with them all the time and let them do whatever they want.

Dan,
Your little "bait and switch" with Islam is laughable. Kind of like saying, "Hey guys, quit talking about Iraq's Civil War. We had one here 100+ years ago and no one is talking about that one!". That would be the kind of logic we would expect from you.
Bottom line: The one thing tolerant people are "intolerant" about IS "Intolerance"!

Chip Bristol had a great LTE. He is an ordained Episcopal Priest and former Headmaster of Canterbury School. His letter addressed the real damage done by Baptists in the name of religion. The SBC does have many similarities with right wing Islam---INTOLERANCE!

If the NC BSC desires to, "....take stands for Bible truth," then I await to see when dear ole Tom stones one of his children for disobedience (if he has children).

The above quoted comment is an EXTREMELY "loaded" one. However, it basically puts the SBC (local, state, and national) stance where it is. And as a former SBC person, I believe that I do have some insight into that.

I guess my problem with this most recent decision is that it still hurts when I hear of these things. The SBC church is my spiritual "home." That is where I first learned of God's love for humanity. And now to see such mandates coming down truly hurts me.

That is all that I am really asking of people here, imagine your spiritual "home" pronouncing a mandate against something that was dear to you (not necessarily the homosexual issue). Try to imagine how you would feel.

While I do not know whether all of the LTTE writers have had or do have any affiliation with SBC chruchs, I feel the pain that has been shared.

The GLBT community has been either closeted in or marginalized for many years by mainstream religious groups. The current action by the NC BSC only increases the depth of closetness and the marginalization.

For any GLBT person out there who may be affiliated with an SBC congregation and feels the need to explore other options, contact me and I will glad dialogue with you regarding other religious groups that are accepting AND affirmming.

Shalom

Nitpicker,

Shhhh... just watch the movie. This is better than HD, its Real Life! Popcorn?

No bait & switch DD. We are talking about religion and homosexuality, it is relevant. Southern Baptists are villified yet Islam gets a pass. You have in the past chastised Catholics, so following your rules just stick to Southern Baptists please.

6String, Muslims don't just kick gays out in the cold, Islamic law calls for whipping or death by stoning! Whether it is low key or not, I would sumise you wouldn't approve of this practice.

"Bottom line: The one thing tolerant people are "intolerant" about IS "Intolerance"!"

Here too, stick to your rules. Don't call people you don't know "homophobes of the worst kind". After all my friend, that epitomizes intolerance.

I think swanks post is the most eloquent I have heard on this subject. Thank you.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you don't like the beliefs of a religion then find another one. It's that simple.

Here's a thought:

When God spoke to Moses, he commanded ten things: Ten Commandments, the literal Word of God, directly from the Lord himself, without interpretation by scholar or prophet, and not one of them says, "Thou shalt not be homosexual."
If homosexuality were such an abomination before God, don't you think He would have made room on the tablet for the 11th Commandment?

I like what you say, swanks, and you have a good point, Pragmatist. I still think the writers of the Bible did not understand homosexuality and they thought it was an abomination and decided that God did too. Just mho.

I like Darryl's statement about thc church being a spiritual home. I once read a bumper sticker which read (about the second coming):
"Jesus is coming and boy is He going to
be Angry"

We have a real arrogance about our ability to read God's Mind, his Message and His Mission.
We use the New Testament,a book that scholars are
in constant debate regarding it's interpretation, and use it to defame people and their honest, heartful,and earnest style of physical and spiritual love making. My last count, biblical scholars line up about 50/50 regarding the bible's stance(?) on homosexuality.

I have many homosexual (Gay and Lesbian) friends who have enriched my life with love, loyalty, charity and friendship.I'm sure that my wife and son feel the same. Sorry it's more than a church's teaching, it makes it more difficult, in an already difficult world, to be the complete person that God makes all of us. For some people, being gay is how they were born. I think that Jesus would agree with that. He said:
"I am the Vine and you are the branches"--there was no small print or whispering "except for them over there--you know whom I mean".

I agree that anyone, repeat anyone, who reads the Bible picks and chooses what to believe. No one, repeat no one, follows the Bible verbatim.

Even allowing for the fact that much of the New Testament overrides the Old Testament (such as monogamy, eating pork barbecue, and not stoning adulterers), people don't abide by everything in the Bible.

For example, in Leviticus 12:4-5, a woman who just had a son can't step inside a church for 33 days; if she had a daughter, she can't go for 66 days. I don't know of any Christian church (not even the SBC) that won't allow new mothers to go to church. That provision was not overridden in the New Testament.

So, it's really a matter of what parts of the Bible that one believes is more important. For some people, it's important to have the "rules" all written down. Do this, don't do that. This seems to be the position of many of the Baptists, as well as other fundamental groups. The details are important to them.

Others believe that God and Jesus really want people to love each other; the rules are less important. In Matthew 12, Jesus' disciples picked grain on the Sabbath because they were hungry. Technically, that's breaking the Fourth Commandment. However, Jesus said it was okay to do good even if it "breaks the rules."

I personally hold the second view. I think love and kindness and acceptance of people is much more important than saying that some aren't good enough for God to love because they don't adhere to everything in the Bible.

Isn't that why Jesus died in the first place? NOBODY is "good enough"! Not even faithful married heterosexuals. Not even chaste priests and nuns. Not even Mother Teresa.

Peace on Earth, goodwill to men (and women and children) this holiday season. That means everybody.

I also agree with what joejoe said. Well put!

carol dunn- "the writers of the Bible did not understand homosexuality"....so you do then, we apparently must infer....

and since they did not understand it then their knee jerk reaction was to go with the abomination spin (i guess since most people find man on man sex despicably distasteful and well, gross, i mean it is where dookie comes from, right?)...and so it just kinda evolved from there to here where homo sex is to be undertood now as, well, no big whoop?

so enlighten all of us please carol dunn, help us to understand homosexulaity and set us 'straight' once and for all before there is another homo LTE tomorrow...

Folks, like it or not, this Jesus fellow was a LIBERAL. The religion that has been built over the ages, 'supposedly' around him, is the real abomination.
I have a feeling...no proof here, but a feeling...that Jesus would NOT be condemning homosexuals, especially as long as there were folks without food, clothing and shelter. Just a hunch, but I doubt he'd have ANYTHING to do with the organized church.

Funny how this country was founded by people who came here to escape religious persecution. Now the Baptists are trying to turn against the founding principle of the country.

*On a positive note, the Baptists are now beginning to be a little more friendly around the coomununity.....Now they wave to each other when coming out of the ABC store.

Peace and love to all. Some great discussion today. Appreciate and like comments, Joe and BeadBaby (would like to know the story behind your handle) and of course I am DD's "cheerleader" (if I could just get him to be a little nicer at times). Hope you are well, Darryl.

ok doofusdemon, so it goes something like this, Jesus says "yeah my man, its cool, if you love that dude and are a romantic couple and want to consummate that loving relationship with anal sex and fellatio and heavy petting, genital touching, and kissing each other, i can thumbs up all you dudes and dudettes on that!....i am down for anything that makes you feel good about yourselves!" YEH JESUS YOU DA MAN!

Seems like a person by the name of "Conservative Christian' tried to hack an online site, by changing some facts around.

I noticed that 'jew4jesus' has the same email adress as the hacker (kinda like wire-tapping).........interesting

read the page below

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:ConservativeChristian

joejoe and beadbaby, I really appreciate what you wrote.

Deacon, I must totally and completely agree with you regarding Jesus being a liberal. I have been of that thought for some years now. I see it no other way. Were it not true, how could Jesus have been so open to all?

Carol, I am doing well thanks. We should get together some time. Maybe even have Deacon join us!

Shalom

sorry carol dunn i can't see you as the dooshbag's cheerleader- WFU's cheerleaders have looks and brains...hmmm, which are you lacking?...now please EXPLAIN HOMOSEXUALITY TO US and let these homo blogs end with you setting everyone 'straight'......

my email address, made one time a couple years ago for the purpose of joining TypeKey is conservativechristian@hotmail.com...fyi, the only email i read at that address is the daily email news posting from www.jewishworldreview.com which i highly and heartily recommend for all liberals and conservatibves both...sign up for the daily email news it is AWESOME! and also fyi, really the only thing i am capable of hacking is doofusdeacon...

jew4jesus, you're right. Having sex where dookie comes from is gross. It's much better to have sex where piss comes from.

j4j, No use waiting on a reply from C.D. The lightweights here are waiting for the alpha male to explode on the scene, armed with with npr links, to prove Jesus was all for homosexuality and the Bible's abomination of it is really nothing more than spin, most likely put there after a proof reading by some southern baptist.

neocon,
You really never offer anything of value. Why don't you just get the leaves out from around your trailer, and go watch "Alice" reruns on the Superstation.

Prag you must have one really microscopic dick to be able to insert it into another man's penis...now all the homos are going to switch from the sphincter surgery to penis reduction...

"I have a feeling...no proof here, but a feeling...that Jesus would NOT be condemning homosexuals, especially as long as there were folks without food, clothing and shelter."

This sounds like a Jack Handey moment.

So, world traveler, do you suppose he may consider condeming homosexuals once 'the folks' were fed and clothed?

neocon,
Do you have ANY friends? Who would even CHOOSE to associate with you?

carol dunn- lets here a big loud cheer for the doofusdeacon!...sweet guy!

and after the cheer please go ahead already and enlighten us with your understanding of homosexuality...its not just one homo LTE today, its lettersTE so c'mon and set us 'straight' with your bullseye insight.

Your comments are fantastic, bless your heart. Southerners can translate this sentence for you.

Wow, this one went from dialogue to outright nastiness! Oh well, some are going to get "Needs Improvement" on "Plays Well With Others!"

Shalom

"Wow, this one went from dialogue to outright nastiness! "

Yeah, but the hot man-on-man makeup sex is unbelievable!

Off thread a bit, everyone. I promise you can go back to your civilized debate after this.

Carol, you asked about my handle. It's really very simple. I love to work with beads. Big beads, tiny beads, expensive beads, cheap beads, I love them all. Pretty, pretty, shiny, shiny..., well, okay, I like matte finishes too.

I now return you to your excruciatingly polite discussion of the issues. Well, it's excruciating, at least.

Well, shucks, BB. I thought you might be a tree hugging, sandal wearing, bead wearing kind of gal. Are you at least a moon howling gal???

Well, Carol, I do like wearing beads as well, especially amulet pouches I've made. Admittedly, I've only made about seven or so, of which I've sold two and given one, but they are so pretty. Umfortunately, an amulet pouch takes forever to make. So largely I wear things that don't take as long to do.

And I usually wear sandals in summertime. I also played a werewolf in a live-action role playing game before. Does that count?

Kinda, I guess. Moon Howling Girl came from an episode of Frasier. A friend and I have perfected the full moon howl. Lots of fun. Great stress reliever.