"Even though the school board approved this calendar, maybe they forgot the miraculous birth that split time (BC and AD) on the calendar forever."

Maybe Wayne has forgotten (or maybe he never bothered to learn) that "the miraculous birth" is impossible to fix a date or even a year to, based on the contradictory information provided. Maybe it would be a neat thing if Wayne would learn that the dates he thinks are "forever" defined this way are more properly defined using "Common Era" designations for that very reason. Also, he might want to know that just because we of European descent and/or culture use that dating system, it isn't true of all cultures. Do try to get a grip, dude.

Also, since the winter break for almost all schools covers a time of several solstice-related holidays for several different groups, is there really some need to make the break to be named for HIS favorite one?

I don't know about other folks here, but it really gets tiresome to me hearing a few whining Christians carrying on every year about this time because they aren't in complete control of every aspect of our lives. Why can't they get a little humility and observe the holy dys they want and let the others around them observe whatever days they want -- if any -- in peace? Just for ONE year??

Good points, Nemo. If you watch TV commercials or go shopping, you will realize that "Christmas" has become a time for spending more money than you can afford and buying gifts folks don't need. I have seen very little religious about the season in years.

We can all celebrate how we please in our homes and churches. I don't think God is worried if we say Happy Holidays or the school kids get a Winter Break. I think he wants us to live good lives, love one another, and help to bring peace on earth...365 days a year.

last year, Virgin mobile came up with "Happy Chrismuhannakwanzakah"

I thought it was funny and used it a couple of times.

a round of votes... who is offended by that? seeing as how saying happy holidays offends christians and merry christmas offends jews and everything offends muslims.

"Our children are at risk without understanding Christmas". So, if I'm to understand the LTTE, the absence of the specific mention of Christmas on the school calendar is depriving his daughter? He expects the word "Christmas" on the calendar to be educational?

Why doesn't he take a few minutes to explain the holiday? I don't expect the public schools to educate my children on my personal beliefs, why must these Bill O'Reilly disciples insist that civil institutions do their work for them? If you want your children to understand Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanzaa, Ramadan, pagan dances on the equinox, etc., explain it to them.

By the way, if the absence of "Christmas" on the school calendar caused his daughter to forget about it, she must never leave the house or watch TV. I see mentions of Christmas everywhere (and as Carol suggested, most of it is commerce related).

Howie,

Your last paragraph summed up a lot of my feelings on this letter.

Although I am a Christian and I do celebrate Christmas, I don't have a problem with calling it a holiday break. Most people know that the reason we're off is because most people celebrate Christmas, but not EVERYBODY celebrates Christmas. Those who don't are still off from school however.

Personally, I even think Winter Holiday is too much. They should just leave it at Winter Break and make no mention of holiday at all.

I can say that I've been shopping at many places here recently cause I also enjoy the commercial element of Christmas. I love Santa Claus and I love giving gifts. While out, I've heard religious Christmas music at McDonald's, Wal-Mart, etc. I love it. I haven't heard anybody griping about the fact that these places play music about Christ. And I hope I won't.

I agree with 6string as well. If you get offended by Christmas music playing in the store you shop, you need to get a life.

One other thing, Urban Ministries is doing a food drive on non-perishables. It's a great cause and it's easy to give and it feels really great to help people anonymously.

I have seen several letters oncerning the so called "war on CHRISTmas with Mr. Lomans being a very insightful one. However, I have noticed in the comments that there are the same persons that respond in a very negative way to these letters. I wonder if they work for the ACLU (Agents Carrying out Lucifer's Urgings). Can someone explain how in a Democracy that is suppose to be majority ruled than a single individual can complain and change everything? These individuals have the "G-d given right" to their opinion and also have the right to choose hell or heaven because we are a free country. My suggestion is to allow any and all religious activities this time of year but have the federal government remove the two days from being a national holiday because the original intent was to celebrate a "CHRISTIAN" holiday and make everyone work those two days and not be thankful to us Christians for giving them two days off!

It isn't often that I agree with everyone else posting, but this is that rare occasion. I don't agree with everything everyone says, but everyone said something I agree with.

As far as the holiday goes, what's wrong with "Happy New Year"?

Mr. Fife,

If you're referring to me, no, I am not a member of the ACLU, nor have I ever met anyone who is. However, I have no problem with their mission. And I struggle to see how you can equate this mission -- to protect and preserve the rights guaranteed by the Constitution -- with the work of Satan. Are you suggesting that the Constitution is the work of Satan, or merely it's enforcement?

"Can someone explain how in a Democracy that is suppose to be majority ruled than a single individual can complain and change everything?"

I'll give it a shot. While the majority of votes win elections, you can't just say "well most people are Christians, why can't our schools teach Christianity?" (Otherwise, the last US troops would have left Iraq about six months ago.) Rather, you have the freedom to worship as you wish, to celebrate your holy days as you see fit, and even tell others about your beliefs. But the government cannot cram religious beliefs down the throats of those who do not wish to subscribe to them. And you cannot expect a government-run institution (the public schools), to choose to acknowledge some religions and exclude others. That's what the separation of church and state is supposed to be about.

As an aside, do you agree with me that the place for religious education is in the home and the place of worship? Why does it need to be in the schools as well?

Ahh, the eagerly-anticipated War On Christmas (a.k.a. War on Christianity) debate.

I quote Jon Stewart, who I believe said it best:

"Yes, the long war on Christianity. I pray that one day we may live in an America where Christians can worship freely! In broad daylight! Openly wearing the symbols of their religion... perhaps around their necks? And maybe - dare I dream it? - maybe one day there can be an openly Christian President. Or, perhaps, 43 of them. Consecutively."

This letter deserves no comment, as it is so ridiculous.

Nicely summed up, Kristin.

Howie G.
I retract the statement about the ACLU. I ususally don't respond in such a way and you seem to be a very informative and dedicated person to your ideas. That's what is really good about these blogs. It should never be personal.
I believe the Founding Fathers were very intelligent men but I doubt they could have forseen how this nation could have evolved (I hate that word but it is appropriate in this situation) to the degree where you would have so much diversity. I don't know if seclusion is the proper approch in maintaing one's religious beliefs. But I do believe we need tolerance. I am comfortable in my faith that I know G-d does not need defending. I actually have more problems with religous organizations and denominations that I do secularism. I don't believe the church today is what Christ had in mind. As far as Satan, he probably enjoys this time of year more than most because the church is not radical enough to make a stand and that's why I believe we are having this "war on CHRISTmas".

rbfife37 says:
"Can someone explain how in a Democracy that is suppose to be majority ruled than a single individual can complain and change everything?"

In a pure democracy, such a thing can't happen. Fortunately for all of us, we don't live in such a system. We live in a "Repubilc." That means that there is such a thing as the "rule of law" and that in certain conditions, defined by the Constitution (you recall hearing about this document, I hope), the rights of the minority are defined and protected against the wishes of the mob. Be careful about wishing to live in a "democracy," sir. Who knows when you might one day be in a minority position and wishing for legal protection yourself.

Mr Loman, it sounds like you want the school- an institution run by the state- to endorse a particular religion.

Should you care to teach your child about religion, religious matters, and religious holidays, I recommend that you do that in the church of your choice.

Mr Fife, I must congratulate you on my first giggle of the otherwise awful morning with your quip about Agents Carrying out Lucifer's Urgings. That's priceless.

I'm sure that the ACLU was carrying out Satan's wishes when they teamed up with Fallwell against the Commonwealth of Virginia. Or when they went to bat for that street preacher is Vegas. Or when...

Aw, just check out some of the stories linked here:
http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/

"Fortunately for all of us, we don't live in such a system. We live in a "Repubilc."

Yep. True democracy is two wolves and one sheep deciding what's for dinner.

Great link, Den. I hope all who think that the ACLU is an evil organization will take time to see what they are all about. American Civil Liberties Union. That says it all. While we can all find cases on which we do not agree, thank God we have someone dedicated to really protecting our freedom.

For more on the 'myth' of the "seperation of church and state may I refer you to this link:

http://www.creationists.org/churchandstate.html

let me know what you think.

"have the federal government remove the two days from being a national holiday because the original intent was to celebrate a "CHRISTIAN" holiday and make everyone work those two days and not be thankful to us Christians for giving them two days off!"

Christmas was not celebrated in the colonies/states controlled by the Puritans. It was celebrated, mostly in the South, by feasting, fireworks and gunshots, and occasionally horse racing and other games of chance. I don't know about other areas, but the Indiana territorial and early state legislature met on Christmas day until around 1820 unless it fell on Sunday.

"I believe the Founding Fathers were very intelligent men but I doubt they could have forseen how this nation could have evolved"

Actually, Franklin, Washington, and Jefferson specifically welcomed the idea that people of all religions and even no religion at all would settle here - provided that they were law-abiding, productive citizens. It was not what a man believed, but how he acted toward his fellow citizens that concerned them. This attitude was probably shared by John Adams and James Madison, though Adams certainly had very different views than Jefferson had about many other things. It is perhaps noteworthy that none of these men were Christians.
Where do people like the LTE writer come from? For the umpteenth time, Jesus has nothing to do with 25 December. The date and everything symbolic of the day come from pagan sources. The reason for the season has always been the Winter Solstice and attendant events.
The schools are on vacation for two events, the second of which celebrates the New Year, a date that is sacred to Ianus, Roman god of beginnings and endings.
Apparently it’s not enough for Christians to make Jewish and Muslim owned stores put up Christmas signs. If it makes people like the LTE writer any happier, we have managed to avoid having the schools closed on Hanukkah for most years. Sadly, those who make a big deal of the New Year and a few other holidays still get to celebrate on “Christian” time, but surely the true believers will find a way to spoil that for everyone if we give them an opportunity.
When someone writes a “why do secularists pick on fundamentalists” sort of thing, I wonder if they ever read letters like this. Do they think words like this deserve to go unchallenged, that freedom of religion includes the right to make a public horse’s rump of one’s self without it being noted? Why aren’t they making it their business to help their brethren understand that using government (does anyone doubt that public schools are government organs staffed by government employees and carrying out government mandated programs?) to enforce their religious holidays and opinions is establishment of religion?
BTW, I'm not an ACLU member, though I have donated on occasion, and I respect the term "evolve."

I have just found a great website that is very infomative and I believe everyone that writes on this blog can agree with as it explains the holiday the best and it comes of all places from a governemt web site. It is excellant!

http://usinfo.state.gov/scv/Archive/2005/Dec/19-344398.html

All the complaining about this issue - from both sides - is much ado about nothing. Of course, in today's super-sensative world, nothing can be done that even comes close to promoting a Christian religion by a government entity. The LTE writer, and the people whom the LTE writer is worried about - are both wasting their time.

I do think the issue took an interesting turn this year in the Seattle/Tacoma airport. Probably not a government entity, they caved in and took down their "holiday trees" when a local rabbi insisted that an 8-foot high menorrah be added!

What more can be said than has already been said? I agree in part with what most, not all, of the above people have stated.

Shalom

There's no mention of "Samhain" during Halloween, either. Pagans must be ticked off about that. The schools are open during Ramadan, too. Of course, and I'm not joking, I'm pretty sure there's a fair number of Christians who think Ramadan is the name of those tasty little noodles you get for a quarter a pack.

Jews Strive to Restore Sea-Tac Airport's Christmas Trees

By Rabbi Daniel Lapin

Well here we go again. It is so utterly predictable. Like clockwork. It’s December and time for another skirmish in the annual battle against Christmas. What compels me to comment is that this time it's not the usual secular fanatic who's responsible for doing things that evict Christianity from the culture. No, on this sad and alarming occasion it's a deeply religious, well-intentioned rabbi who has unwittingly stumbled into a situation that will place his denomination (and mine)—Orthodox Judaism—in a terrible, negative light.

For at least ten years, Sea-Tac Airport near Seattle has displayed several large, beautifully decorated Christmas trees each December. With lawyer in tow, a local rabbi recently threatened to sue the Port of Seattle if the airport didn't add a Chanukah menorah to the holiday display.

Yielding to the ultimatum was not an option for airport management, skittish at the best of times since 9-11. Understandably, they interpreted the rabbi’s threat as only the first. It would not be hard to imagine Seattle’s Islamic community stepping forward with their own lawyer to demand a Moslem symbol be included as well.

With deft turn of phrase, Sea-Tac public affairs manager Terri-Ann Betancourt explained that at the busiest travel time of the year, while Sea-Tac was focused on getting passengers through the airport, she and her staff didn’t have time “to play cultural anthropologists.”

Threatening a lawsuit, I feel, violates the Jewish principle known in Hebrew as Kiddush HaShem, interpreted in the Talmud, part of ancient Jewish wisdom, as an action that encourages people to admire Jews. One need only read the comments on the Internet following the news accounts of the tree removal, to know that most people are feeling indignant and hurt. They certainly are not feeling more warmly toward Jews as a result of this mess.

Here I disclose that I know the rabbi involved, am friendly with him, and am sure that he didn’t intend this outcome. I like him, which makes it painful for me to point out that when one throws a punch (which is what bringing a lawyer and threatening to sue is equivalent to) and one gets decked in return, one cannot plead that one didn’t intend that outcome.

The outcome, whether intended or not, is that now vast numbers of passengers, most of whom are probably Christian, will be deprived of the cheerful holiday sight of pretty Christmas trees. What is more, they will know that their deprivation was caused by a Jewish rabbi. The rabbi’s lawyer told a television reporter, “There is a concern here that the Jewish community will be portrayed as the Grinch.”

No, Mr. Lawyer, it is not that Jews will be “portrayed” as the grinch. Sadly, now we are the grinch. You made us the grinch.

Now what is to be done? I have three requests:

I am asking every reader of this column to sign a petition on the Toward Tradition website beseeching Sea-Tac management to restore the Christmas trees.

I am asking every reader of this column to forward it to others who might be willing to sign this petition.

I am asking Jews in the Puget Sound region to join national radio host, Michael Medved, and me in offering our volunteer labor to Sea-Tac. We hope they will allow us to provide the labor necessary for replacing the trees so that airport staff need not be deflected from their important duties.

Why am I, an Orthodox Jewish rabbi, so concerned about a few Christmas trees? Not for a moment do I believe that American Christians will react to this insult with a flurry of anti-Semitic activity. But I do feel certain that perhaps in some small way, expelling Christmas symbolism from the airport makes it just a little harder to protect America’s Christian nature.

For centuries, we Jews suffered in a Europe governed by ecclesiastical authority. We suffered no less under the secular tyrannies of communism. Now, in post-Christian Europe, where both government and population are increasingly secular, anti-Semitism is dramatically on the rise. In short, we have never thrived under religious government or within secular cultures.

During the past two thousand years of Jewish history Jews have never enjoyed a more hospitable home than we enjoy here in the United States of America.

This is because we have a religiously neutral government and a largely religious Christian population. Most American Christians love Jews and support Israel unconditionally because of their commitment to the Bible and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Evidence from across the Atlantic persuades me that our lot will deteriorate if America’s population gradually becomes secularized and removing the Christmas trees makes that disturbing likelihood, over time, more probable. Yes, public symbols are very important.

Years ago we Jews advocated for full equality. Today, with thirteen Jewish United States senators, over thirty Jewish congressmen, two Jews on the Supreme Court, and disproportionate Jewish representation in media and entertainment, one could reasonably say we have achieved it. But back then, the only culture in America was Christian. Today, however, America is home to many faiths, not all of them friendly towards Judaism.

Today, agitating for Jewish religious representation in the culture inevitably results not in equating Judaism with Christianity but the removal of both Judaism and Christianity. In other words, pushing for the menorah means removal of the Christmas tree and the triumph of secularism. Europe, both past and present, teaches us that if America becomes secularized, Jews suffer.

For fifteen years I have insisted that for Jews to oppose Christianity in America is a mistake. The world today is populated by millions who harbor festering hatred for Jews. There remains one group of people who love and support us and they are America’s Evangelical Christians. What possible sense does it make to fight your friends by stripping their symbols from sight?

When the Moslems invaded Spain, one of their first actions was the removal of all Christian symbols from public view. Secularism’s invasion of America is attempting exactly the same strategy. I implore American Jews not to ally themselves with this ill-fated campaign.

We are less than a week from the Jewish holiday of Chanukah during which our most important religious observance revolves around the blessings we say over the Menorah. In doing so, we oppose the still prevalent and ever more dangerous force of secularism.

When times change, unlike dinosaurs, wise organisms adapt. We should recognize that we all have a stake in protecting Christian symbolism in the village square (or the airport). The only alternative will be no religious symbolism at all and make no mistake, secularism’s rise is Judaism’s decline.

I spoke to the rabbi involved today and he is genuinely unhappy with the decision of Sea-Tac airport. I invited him to join the Toward Tradition petition and I hope he will do so. I urge you also to do whatever you can to help bring back Sea-Tac Airport’s Christmas trees. Let us all show that we care.

Exactly thirteen years ago, a brick was thrown through a Jewish home’s window in Billings, Montana because inside that window was displayed a menorah. Within days, over six thousand Christian homes in Billings protested that anti-religious bigotry by displaying menorahs in their windows.

I am not suggesting that Jews express their support by displaying Christmas trees in their windows but I am suggesting that Jews fulfill the spirit of Chanukah by supporting public expressions of the other Biblical faith. I don’t think that the airport was guilty of anti-religious bigotry but a weakening of Christianity in America could become a huge threat. For a start, let us try to restore Sea-Tac Airport’s Christmas trees.

www.towardtradition.org

There's no mention of "Samhain" during Halloween, either."

There was at my house, but then again, I was a huge Misfits fan... :)

I probably would have enjoyed the Misfits more had the sound quality been a tad better. I enjoyed some of the work from Danzig, though. I used Black Aria as good music to fall asleep to for quite some time.

j4j, what is all the hub bub about Christmas trees at Sea-Tac? Isn't a Christmas tree (Holiday tree in PC) a secular symbol?

http://atheism.about.com/od/christmasholidayseason/p/XmasTree.htm

Used to be manger scenes were banned, now it's Christmas trees. Watch out Santa, you're next.

nitpicker- excellent choice. That thar's good stuff. As an aside, I met Danzig and Eerie Von (the bassist) in Cincinnati while they were on tour (with Soundgarden and COC) for his first album... Good times, good times.

And don't think the funniness of discussing this in a Christmas thread escapes me for a minute!

"Used to be manger scenes were banned, now it's Christmas trees."

Why, exactly, did "they" "ban" Christmas trees?

Good question Denz, I was wondering the same thing.

The Rabbi who caused the hub bub at Sea-Tac was on O'Reilly tonight. O'Reilly, surprisingly, was totally in agreement with the Rabbi. He simply wanted a menorah and offered to pay for one since after all it is Chanukah.

I agree with the airport's stance, if they put up Christmas trees and menorahs they are going to have requests for all kinds of religious things on display and face lawsuits if they do or don't.

So screw the Christmas tree in public, it's too much of a liability. We have waaaaayy too much time on our hands if we worry about Christmas trees in an airport. If only the airlines didn't have so many delays then people wouldn't have time to look around the airport and worry about the environs.

"We have waaaaayy too much time on our hands if we worry about Christmas trees in an airport. "

Agreed. However.... I can see both sides of this one. I can understand wanting the symbols of one's faith to be displayed along with the symbols of another religion (however secularized) at this time of celebration.

I can also see the airport's side of it- if they had allowed a menorah, I'd have sued to allow a sexy representation of Eris, goddess of Discord to be allowed in there somewhere. And when they added that, I'd get in good with the Pastafarians and sue for a graven image of the Flying Spaghetti Monster's noodly appendage to be honored as well.

And after that... well, I'd probably nap, because that's a lot for one day, but somebody else would pick up where I left off.

Denz,

I actually heard that Danzig is supposed to be releasing a Christmas album next week. :)

I think it's cool that you had the chance to meet him. He's an interesting guy. I wouldn't mind meeting Chris Cornell either. But personally, if I had the choice right now, I'd love to meet Rob Zombie (and of course his wife).

Danzig? A Christmas album? Oh, man. I'll keep an eye out for it- thanks for the heads-up.

Speaking of- didja see the vid of him getting the smackdown at some club a while back?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2223363733168053281&q=danzig&hl=en

Owie.

Denz,

OUCH!

I must have missed that one but thanks for sharing. Gotta say that Glen pretty much deserved it since he was the one who initiated the physical contact. However, I wouldn't want to be the one who slapped him. The dude is built. Although, given his height and size, I could probably outrun him. Outrunning his satanic voodoo curse might be a little harder. :)

Denz & Nit, you two have waaaaayy to much time on your hands :-)

Hey Dan- you see that they put the trees back up at Sea-Tac?

Didn't notice that, been out this afternoon. What about the menorah and the godess Eris?

Isn't the whole Iraq war dedicated to Eris and her father Ares? No? You could have fooled me.

"What about the menorah and the godess Eris?"

Dunno about the menorah, but the golden apple will be there. That you do not see it does not mean it does not exist. :D

I personally don't have a religious experience when I see a decorated tree, call it a Christmas Tree or a Holiday Tree. I also can find nothing religious about shopping in huge crowds buying gifts people don't need to be a religious experience, even if they say Merry Christmas. All I really need to say is Bah, Humbug.

There are tons of opportunities out there, but the new need to be open to spot something that's just under your nose!