"and we did that in Vietnam"...

Yes, we cut and ran there too due to a faction of the American population that lacked the backbone and stomach to win.

Neocon, I wish your statement were correct. The way I see it, the American people have power once every four years at the White House and every two alternating years at the senate and congress (I hope my numbers aren't too far off). In essence, we have power at election time. The government, in the mean time does what it does. I don't feel connected many times with how the governmentmanages our affairs. If "we" had more ongoing power, I don't think things would have to get as extreme as they do before something differently gets done. I don't think it's lack of backbone. Also, people are going to disagree about the "when" and the "how much" of "war". If one disagrees with a war proposal, that doesn't make them spineless nor does wanting to stop it, once it's underway, demonstrate a spineless decision. "How many times must a canon ball fly before they're forever banned, the answer my friend......."

Neocon,
At some point, you must accept the reality that the war in Vietnam was for nothing. You must also accept the reality that getting out was the right thing to do. Vietnam was Johnson's war. Iraq is Bush's war.
****************
Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with the war on terror, but it seems that a small number of people (21% and dropping) believe that somehow, Iraq attacked us on September 11th. God help us!

Neocon,
You blamed our pulling out of Vietnam on a "faction" of our society as if it were just a few folks. Did you EVER read (in your case, hear about) the mea culpa from McNamara? Did you ever see copies of documents, through the Freedom of Information Act, whereby General Westmoreland was inflating numbers of enemy kills just to win support of a failing war? At some point, you must throw in your towel of ignorance and step into the light. I can respect your emotions that you want to feel like you served for a noble purpose or cause, but history has shown you were little more than a pawn on the chessboard of politics. You need to get over it and move on. It would seem that those who have seen the ravages of war would not want to see them repeated or embarked upon for naught.

Your name calling of those who disagree, shows not only your limited ability to reason, but it shows the myopia of your own thought process.

neocon, under what circumstances would you consider the Iraq war "won" by the USA? What are your conditions for leaving Iraq? I honestly want to know. Humor me; I've only been on the boards for a couple of weeks or so.

Beadbaby,
I really think neocon is reactiing out of misguided patriotism. He/she/it thinks that the only way one is patriotic is for them to accept whatever the REPUBLICAN leaders say. For neocon, he sees no gray area, and therefore cannot understand that "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel". Like others in the 21%, neocon has been duped by an administration that says, "you are either with us or with the terrorists".

While a great leader, Franklin Roosevelt, said, "The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself", Bush has played the "FEAR" card as the basis for supporting the administration. Remember the color codes? Remember whenever there was a surge in the polls by Kerry, Bush trotted out a trumped up terrorist report? So, while many see through the fog, neocon just thinks he is being more patriotic than others and that they are..how did he put it last? "Spineless" and of course his personal favorite "limp wristed".
Bottom line: You cannot argue with a brick wall. Neocon is the brick wall personified.

"leaving Muslims and Hindus to butcher each other; the French did that in Algeria, with rival factions killing each other;"

Personally, I don't think that is the way we should leave Iraq. Face it, we dismantled Iraq's government and we face some responsibility in making sure they have some form of decent government before we can just pull out and leave.

What's interesting to me is that the 'cut and run' (not my words) democrats are supporting increasing troops by 100,000. Don't remember them saying too much about that before elections.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to All.

i have felt that we have won the war. The war against Saddam was won by May 2003. However, no army can win an occupation. You can use any euphemism you would like but we have been an occupying force to the Iraqis. the cost of lives and material will always bring the down fall of the occupying force. Remember the movie Red Dawn (not a very good movie) but the point was if we were invaded, citizens would take to the hills and attack the occupying forces until they withdrew. The same idea by the viet cong and the iraqis. If we are looking for victory as an occupying force we had better have some clear idea what victory is.

Good posts by all but one. Thanks for saving me time. I can just say, Amen and may God help us all.

Good posts by all but one. Thanks for saving me time. I can just say, Amen and may God help us all.

Posted by: Carol Dunn at December 19, 2006 10:33 AM

I agree, Carol. But the DemonDeacon just can't help answering for others.

re-formed,
Guess you are in neocon's camp on this one? Well, give us some back up rather than your transparent veil of ignorance.

My comment merely agreed with Carol that the posts here - save by one poster - were good. So your guess, DD, that I am with neocon comes from where? And who are you speaking for when you want back up for "us"?

My intuition tells me Carol wasn't referring to the DD.

Beadbaby, I would define victory in Iraq as instilling a self - sustaining democracy that does not harbor or tolerate terrorism nor considers wiping Israel off the map as their 'duty' to Allah.

Carol Dunn, are you still mad at me for breaking your 'pnac' bubble that cRock-o-...feller used to lead you around by the nose?

I agree on your definition of victory...however, it is impossible...democracy in the middle east will not occur in our lifetime.

Don't know whatcha talking about PNAC. I can read and understand their goals...can you? They achieved war on Iraq. Victory...not militarily my friend...bless your heart.

neocon,
Why is it that you resort to calling folks who disagree with your views "limp wristed" and "spineless"? You must feel your position is so weak that the only way to buttress it, is to denigrate the other opinions. Do explain, as many here would love to heare your deep thoughts on that topic.

I'm glad the majority of the above posters weren't around in 1776...or 1914...or 1941...or...

World traveler, you must have a set at least the size of a couple of rasins to call someone on the carpet for name calling. Again, your observations are about as relevant to me as the dried up pimple I had on my arse last summer. Buzz off little man and go play outside.

neocon,
Have you any response concerning the war or are you to be relegated to the dust bins?

World traveler, wrap your mind around this. (if it's broad enough...if not, you may have to have an adult explain it to you) It's an open letter from a marine:

http://www.acorn-online.com/news/exec/view.cgi/24/7107

neocon,
We could trade websites all day long but that accomplishes nothing. Do you have a son or daughter in harm's way in the Middle East? Is that the reason for your intrasigence? Because if it is, it is much more understandable.

I will await your answer.

World traveler, I have family member in Iraq. On his 2nd tour. Soon to return to his home. Makes no difference to me.

"We can trade websites all day long"...

In other words, the letter from this marine has yanked your infantile and gutless tongue out. You and like minded liberals are unfit to lace his boots.

Looks like neocon is helping to keep the Dems fired up in the offseason. --Great Job

Below are a list of items that those tree-hugging Dems created over the past years, and there were always some neo-cons that they had to look beyond, to do the best for our citizens.

--------------------------------
-Passage of the 19th Amendment to the Constitution giving women the right to vote.

-Established Social Security, unemployment insurance, Aid to Families With Dependent Children.

-Created Medicare and Medicaid.

-Passed the Civil rights Act, assuring access to public accommodations and housing regardless of race or religion.

-Increased access to student loans for college and helped students pay tuition by serving the community.

-Negotiated a treaty banning atmospheric testing of nuclear weapons.

-Established the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp., which provides government-backed protection for bank deposits.

-Instituted the Marshall Plan, which rebuilt Europe after World War II and helped prevent the spread of communism.

-Passed the G.I. Bill to find jobs and increase education for returning soldiers.

Thanks for answering my question, neocon. I think it is impossible for Iraq to have at this time both a true democratic government and a government that doesn't hate Israel; both the Sunnis and Shi'ites hate Jews. But I appreciate your response.

Beadbaby, at least you said "I think" it is impossible...

Where have I heard those words before?... hmmm let's see...Oh, yeah, American history if full of those phrases. From 1776 thru 2006. Although I will admit that these phrases have grown some teeth in the last 40 years or so due to the weak kneed and limp wristed who elect their ilk to positions of power.

Guilford, you left the main one out:
-created the modern welfare state that has enslaved millions and kept them from reaching their full potential as human beings. Instead they rely on the federal government to confiscate others' property and give them a meger portion of it to keep themselves in power.

DD: "You must feel your position is so weak that the only way to buttress it, is to denigrate the other opinions."

"Oh, and don't come after my patriotism Dan, you little tin horn flag waver. I have a right to disagree just as much as you have a right to stick your nose up George Bush's ass!"

Posted by: DemonDeacon at June 12, 2006 05:34 PM

Priceless.

First, do we constantly have to have the dickering about who does/does not care for Deacon's posts? Give it a rest! I could list now those who are pro/con for Deacon. Again, give it a rest.

Now, back to topic; I agree with the LTTE writer for one very important reason, I abhor war and it does not agree with Christian principles.

The latest National News that I heard at 6:30 PM was that the Commander in Chief has said that the military size was going to have to increase. This comes after meetings with the Joint Chiefs of Staff. I can hear Gomer Pyle now; Surprise, Surprise, Surprise! Exactly where does anyone think these new 10,000 or so body's are going to originate? It has only been over the past couple of months that recruitment goals have been met; I might add without adding some openly GLBT people, who for reasons unknown to me, want to become military personnel.

I smell conscription in the wind people. Get ready and remember where you heard it first! Also, the annual expected cost of these 10,000 or so more troops; roughly $800 - $900 million! Wonder when we can expect another tax cut?

I suggest anyone with a conscription age child (18-42) to talk with said child about such and see what/how that child feels on the issue of war. I can also advise on alternatives to military service which do not include leaving the country.

As for a lasting democracy in Iraq; I do not believe it is possible! I do not see any Middle Eastern Muslims willing to allow the existence of Israel. Until the Islamic people deal with that issue, there can be little, if any, hope for peace in that region of the world.

Shalom

Dan,
The world traveler most likely can't read or respond to your post for a while. His tongue has been yanked out by the root and his head is on his lap... courtesy of Anthony Ippoliti.

Frankly neocon,

I don't think America wants this one enough. We're sitting in Iraq spending a billion every few days, a half dozen casualties a day. Everything that the administration told us going into this has proven wrong. Everything they're telling us now is wrong. We are wondering why we are here and what victory will bring us or what victory would look like. The wars you mentioned were strongly supported. They made sense. This one doesn't.

George had his chance to support his country in Vietnam. We saw who was limp wristed and weak kneed then. It's all too easy for all of us armchair warriors to to be brave with someone elses sons and daughters.

Darryl, I thought it was ironic that the king of denigrating others opinions criticizes someone for denigrating others opinions. I know you are lock step with DD, so no offense you Darryl.

Good thing I'm 43 years of age, I guess I'm no longer a "child". I'll warn my brother, he has a 25 year old "child" who happens to be gay, oh my gosh.

Keep smelling the wind Darryl, when it blows from the northwest I can smell cow manure as there is a cow farm in that direction from my home in the country. 10,000 people does not equal a draft, the sky isn't falling Darryl.

BTW, how do the "Islamic people" "deal" with the "issue" of Israel? Wipe them off the map as the Iranian govt. wants to do?

Dan,
Per Darryl's post, people don't care for your super sleuth "archive" of my posts. It is very narccisstic and is quite a snapshot into your personality. You have the "stalker" mentality, or how else would you explain away your fixation on MY posts?? Move on, Dan.

The point is, neocon's worldview is shaped by an emotional attachment to a relative serving in the Iraq theater. I can overlook a lot of his rants due to that, and hope he can begin to rejoin the blog by posting his own feelings with less venom toward those who may disagree with his opinions. Do I still think George Bush is an idiot? Yes I do. Do I think neocon is an idiot. No. Not anymore. I have different feelings toward him because his view is shaped purely by emotion rather than reason. It's okay for him to feel that way, because he does not want anyone close to him to have died in vain--that is understandable. For the rest of us, who can look at the issue from a purely tactical standpoint, it makes no sense to be in the middle of a civil war. The military did what they were supposed to do and they won. Bring them out of harm's way and stop the madness.
God bless the United States of America.

"Darryl, I thought it was ironic that the king of denigrating others opinions criticizes someone for denigrating others opinions."

No sleuth mentality, just pointing out hypocrisy of accusing others of denigrating others opinions when you do it almost daily. I must admit your insults have mellowed somewhat. Kudos DD, you are improving, "baby steps" I would call it. I haven't been called dirty words in quite awhile, job well done.

You no longer think Neo is an idiot although you have posted to the contrary for quite awhile, ditto for me. I could Google it but I'm sitting in my Fayetteville hotel room after a long day of work and too tired to do it now.

As for Neo's opinions, I think he knows his opinions without a psycho-babble interpretation from you.

Good night from Fayetteville, home of the 82nd Airborne.

"I dont think America wants this one enough"... frankly, Mr. Firefly, I think you are spot on. And I think the reason America doesn't 'want this one' is due in large part to the constant and relentless bombardment by the lamestream media that portrays America and the military as the instigators of evil in the world 24/7.

BTW world traveler, my relative serving in Iraq is a nephew. And your new found opinion of me has about as much meaning to me as the aforementioned pimple. Buzz off little man and go play with your Fonda dolls or look for cute bumper stickers that denigrate the country so your friends can smile with delight when you relate them here on the Internet for the world to read.
Still no comment on the letter from the firm wristed marine? I'm not surprised. Talk about pushing the loud mouthed and narrow minded world traveler out of his comfort zone...

All this talk about plagiarizing and stating sources and nobody says a word about Guilford Native's post. Sorry, but I ain't believing that was all thought up on the spot. Not that I care. This ain't no term paper.

"Buzz off little man and go play with your Fonda dolls"

Rolling on the floor laughing at that one. I don't normally like all the back and forth bickering but sometimes the insults get creative enough that it's almost enjoyable.

The taunts of the right wing continue to draw fire from those that like to reason their way out of a mess. The bullies accuse all who disagree as being "girlie men", Therefore, the entire discussion above is framed by the "neocon" and responders talk about past wars and who is most macho.
Every country has its apologists for war. And sabre rattlers. Hitler comes to mind. That guy in Iran is another.
And then there is Bush...

neocon,
In trying to understand your "anger" I believe it is truly related to your emotional attachment to a failed policy. I have a great deal more empathy for you than before because I think you are hurting deep inside and have yet to find a healthy outlet for release.
Hope you have a great day.

To the Firm Wristed Marine:

First off, you mention the "coalition effort in Iraq" - perhaps they didn't tell you, but what little there was - much of it initially "purchased" by the USA, has disolved.

Second: Consider looking at "Supporting the troops but not the war" from a different perspectives. It is probably fair to say most military commanders have earned rank, and when they say JUMP, you jump because they have earned your respect and you know that there will be casualties, but you trust that JUMP is the best thing to do NOW. It is also probably fair to suggest you have know at least one military commanders that you do not trust .. and when he said JUMP, you had serious legit' doubts that it was the best thing to do.

Maybe it sould be restated for clarity:

"We support the troops but not the the asses that for their own selfish purposes sent you into Iraq."

Better?

That's where some are coming from - many have good reason to not trust those saying JUMP from the safety of DC. We're not convinved all have America's best interest at heart; it can be shown that at least some of these Arm Chair "leaders" are into it solely for personal political gain.

It that Fuel for the Insurgency - possibly, maybe probably. But it is not the only fuel - and it may be 5% or 95%, I'd guess it's a pretty low number, but concede it is doing nothing to put out the insurgency fire. Perhaps it's the lesser of two evils.

Regardless - I suggest you look deeper for the "mask that serves purely political purpose" - because many of us are repulsed by the politics that has put America - and you - in the pickle jar.

To the Firm Wristed Marine:

You must understand sir that the limp wristed liberals mean you no personal harm by 'supporting the troops but not war'. So when their rhetoric throws fuel on the fire and encourages the 'insurgents' to keep up the fight, knowing this I'm sure will make the death or injury of you or your comrades a little more bearable.

After all,' all they are saying is give peace a chance'... Kinda makes you want to upchuck your wheaties, eh Mr.Appoliti?... Me too.

Yea, Infantryman Ippoliti - BE A MAN: Follow General Custer, as Neo suggests; we'll support those who survive you.

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/people/a_c/custer.htm

http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/2006.12.html

http://icasualties.org/oef/

To the Firm Wristed Marine:
It is also worth noting Mr. Ippoliti, that Americans (and the insurgents) are kept abreast-almost minute by minute- of the latest casualites suffered by the American military, but the numbers of 'insurgents' viewed as 'freedom fighters' by many of the American leftists, are listed as "Iraqi civilian deaths" or "collateral deaths".

The lamestream American media seems to lose it's ability to count when it comes to the number of terrorists you and your comrades have dispatched. Or if not, at least they have no desire to share this info on a scale that approaches their zeal in reporting American deaths.
Godspeed Sir.

JDR, everyone needs to scroll slowly through the second link you provided. These are not just casualties of war, they were sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, aunts, uncles, grandchildren. How does the Bush administration sleep at night?

What is so awful is that it appears we are getting ready to increase the numbers in Iraq rather than bring them home. I was so hopeful after November. I am losing hope again.

"The lamestream American media seems to lose it's ability to count when it comes to the number of terrorists you and your comrades have dispatched. Or if not, at least they have no desire to share this info on a scale that approaches their zeal in reporting American deaths."

Does counting dead bodies help any cause? How do you distinguish "terrorists" from "freedom fighters" from "revenge murderers" from "plain murderers" from "innocent kids caught in crossfire"?

Neo: Would you prefer we just let all the Americans all got to the tomb of the unknown soldier?

Sheeze...pitiful...
No wonder this marine is disgusted with the appeasers and those who support the terrorists via their rhetoric.

cRock-o-...feller, why do you suppose the lamestream media trumpets the successes of the terrorists via their hourly body count of Americans and yet we never hear how many of them (the terrorists) are disposed of on a daily basis-never to harm another American again? Every (pro-terrorist) liberal who blogs here knows exaztly how many American service men and women have been killed in this conflict, but ask them how many terrorists have been disposed of and you will get links to "Iraqi civilians" that have been "slaughtered" or "innocent bystanders" that were killed by one of the drugged children the terrorists use. (Or links to the relatives of slain service men & women.)
This illustrates the incompentance of the lamestream media and is proof positive the 'enemy of my enemy(Bush) is my friend'...disgusting.

Rambo:

The highest kill numbers I've heard are 650,000 of "them" (terrorists & innocents and towellheads inbetween) to 3,200 "us" (exclusively military). You should be proud.

Please tell what have we gained?

Jusr for fun - there are 1,300,000,000 muslims in the world - so we're another 2,600 times the losses to go. Using the above ratio, I guess you're ready for another 1.8 million - which is pretty much the entire US military.

Neo - Occassionally we do hear of a dozen al Qaiada (or whatever) taken by US or Iraqi Forces - but more often it's "Iraqi civilians" that have been "slaughtered" or "innocent bystanders" that were killed by one of the drugged children the terrorists use

Now it could be "the incompentance of the lamestream media", but did you ever consider it might be accurate reporting?

Maybe it's really happening - what a concept.

Why don't you go over there and do some "better reporting?

... let's check today 'cause it's typical:

• In southern Baghdad, two civilians were killed and seven wounded by mortar rounds, and a roadside bomb killed two civilians and wounded nine near an electricity plant, police said.

• Three children were killed when mortar rounds hit their village near Baqouba, and seven civilians were wounded in a mortar attack nearby, police said. North of the city, five insurgents were killed in clashes with U.S. and Iraqi forces, Iraqi officials said. Also in Baqouba, insurgents attacked a police patrol, killing two officers.

• An Iraqi army captain was killed outside his home in Diwaniyah, south of the capital, according to police.

• A suicide bomber blew up near an American convoy in Mosul, wounding two civilians, police said. A Shiite university student was killed in a drive-by shooting in the city.

• Police said they found 53 bodies around Baghdad on Tuesday, apparent victims of violence between Sunnis and Shiites. Many of the bodies showed signs of torture.

• The morgue in the city of Baqouba north of Baghdad said it received 15 bodies of people who died violently, including those of two women and an Iraqi soldier. The morgue in Kut, southeast of Baghdad, received the bodies of seven people.

• Six bombs rocked Baghdad Monday, killing dozens of people and wounding nearly 100, most of them in a single attack in the Sadr City neighborhood in eastern Baghdad. Thirteen people were killed in other regions of Iraq.

• At least 26 people were killed and 60 wounded when a bomb ripped through Mudhfar Square, near the bustling Jamila market in the densely populated Shiite slum of Sadr City, Baghdad, emergency police said.

EVERY FREAKING DAY dude.

cRocko-o...feller, your posts make my point. Thanks. "Occasionally we hear of a dozen or so"... Uh, Gitmo is full of people who want us dead. And there are more than a "dozen or so". But to the 'news' outlets, they are simply (probably innocent) victims of George Bush's war.

When American service personnel are killed it is trumpeted by the LAMESTREAM MEDIA as the main reason to cut and run. The number killed is shown on the 'crawler' across the bottom of CNN almost instantly and then we are treated to to a total tally as of date thrown in just for good measure. Then Jimmy Carter shill Chris Mathews will devote an entire hour or two to rehashing the total number of American deaths in Iraq and asking the question "how long will Americans permit this go on"?

But I don't recall seeing this on the CNN crawler or the Jimmy Carter shill's show or anywhere else for that matter. I may be wrong, but I keep a pretty close eye on the news and I don't recall hearing or seeing this from any of the major outlets:

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7621&Itemid=21

You can defend the media and support the terrorists with your rhetoric all you care to. That is your privilege as an American citizen. But I think the words of a marine with his boots on the ground in Iraq makes you - and those who parrot you - seem very small and insignificant indeed when compared to him. He said more in his letter than I have heard out of you, Carol Dunn, the world traveler, and the rest of your brood say in more than a year that I have been suffering through your npr and wikipedia links.

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night!

Mr. Neocon,
I understand your emotions here. They are normal and should be treated as normal.

One point I would like to make, is that the site your referenced is written by the propaganda arm of the current force. Take a moment in time to remember the news being put out of Vietnam about war casualties, including North Vietnamese and Viet Cong. Those numbers were found to be as bogus as a three dollar bill. Westmoreland felt the loss of support at home and "juiced" the numbers on a regular basis. The FOA has all of that out in the open today.
After being told we'd be greeted as liberators and that there were a few dead enders, and the insurgency was in its last throes, ....it becomes very hard to swallow news coming from the commanders, as "fair and balanced".
While there were many select ways of telling who was a Viet Cong soldier and who was a North Vietnamese soldier, these are not visible to the untrained eye. Special Ops were trained to look for clothing and organizational skills in the enemy to determine their origin, but it was a civil war! They were all Vietnamese!

So. Did the U.S. soldiers kill some bad hombre's and report this as "al queada"? Or was there intelligence pin pointing these bad boys as "al queada"? We may NEVER now until the FOA applies to this war. What we do know, is that the government and the miliatary lied out their ass about kills in Vietnam. They exaggerated them and they undercounted our own. Do I think it is possible this is going on today? Absolutely, but I certainly hope not.
Fool me once, shame on you! Fool me twice, shame on me!

World traveler,
Your irrelevance grows with every post.
I would suggest your MSNBC, NPR, and CNN links are propaganda arms of the leftists who carry water for the terrorists and the democrats.

Go play outside little man, and take cRock-o-...feller with you, and leave the business of fighting war to those who have the balls for it, like the marine who wrote this letter.