I don't know if God intervened in Mr. Moore's situation or not.

I do have a question Mr. Ramsey or those that agree with his postion. Should God intervene to stop ALL evil and suffering?

I don't know if God intervened in Mr. Moore's situation or not.

I do have a question Mr. Ramsey or those that agree with his postion. Should God intervene to stop ALL evil and suffering?

Moore ends his piece by asking, "Ain't he amazing?"

What I find amazing is how god's will and christian's personal desires so often coincide with each other so neatly. It must be really soothing to have an inside track on what their god is thinking at any particular moment.

Good letter Mr Ramsey.

Thought it was funny about the so called Jesus bones. Turned out that Cameron guy didn't do the research needed to make such a claim. For those who don't know:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200702/FOR20070227b.html

Don't worry Christians, soon you will find some other "proof that goes poof" to aid you in belief of a lie.

lata!

"I do have a question Mr. Ramsey or those that agree with his postion. Should God intervene to stop ALL evil and suffering?"

Maybe not, but a little more effective triage might make him a little easier to believe in. For instance, if God had stopped the genocide in Darfur but not made this guy's traffic lights line up, I'd have a little more respect for his ability to manage the universe.

{;-)

"I do have a question Mr. Ramsey or those that agree with his postion. Should God intervene to stop ALL evil and suffering?"

I wish God had intervened when I was looking for the lighted mercury switches, but she must have been tied up over at "ladders" when I was there.
------------------------------------------------

Dave,
Where will you be when the RAPTURE occurs? Where will YOU spend eternity? These are the questions the GOD SQUAD will no doubt pose to you. Keep up the good work.
Tell your wife I said hello!!

Well after all, Mr Ramsey, iocos et dii amant. But now you've done gone and hurt the Christians' feelings; you've picked on them, you nasty, nasty man!
Very well written, Mr Ramsey.

Seriously folks, is the miracle of the week section ever anything but a joke to make Christians feel better about "believing what they know ain't so"? Every week it gives them an opportunity to wax eloquent about the nature of the unknowable, their relativistic morality, and how much better the world would be if the rest of us would just make ourselves ignorant enough to swallow what they have.
Also on the serious side, Mr Ramsey and most of the rest of us heathens know that the question of why an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent god would allow evil to exist is the big one that believers have never been able to answer. That's why they had to invent a devil and pretend he wasn't a fourth god.
Unwillingness to take responsibility for their own lives is what leads to the "his will be done" mentality - but it's not fatalism, folks! No, no. That's what pagans believe.
You other heathens might enjoy Blind Faith - The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine by Richard P. Sloan.

Nemo:

Are you saying that you could only believe in a God that suits your personal preferences for how the universe should be run? Do you only believe in the existence of PEOPLE that you like also?

Nemo:

Are you saying that you could only believe in a God that suits your personal preferences for how the universe should be run? Do you only believe in the existence of PEOPLE that you like also?

2Fer:

I'm a little confused about your comment about the problem of evil. Could you give me a definition of the word "evil"?

"Are you saying that you could only believe in a God that suits your personal preferences for how the universe should be run?"

No, I'm saying that I could only believe in a God if things happen that defy explanation, or are on such a hugely beneficial (to humans) scale that one would have little choice but to believe that someone "out there" cares about humans, as believers often claim.

So long as tsunamis, hurricanes, wars and pestilence are threatening the lives of billions of people, it really doesn't look to me like we're being helped out. That's all I'm saying.

And if there's a God that helps poor schmucks get to Lowe's a couple of minutes quicker and directs store employees in their duties with a little more alacrity than is natural -- I agree with the letter writer, there's something very wrong with that picture.

Nemo:

I will give you the same opportunity I gave 2fer to DEFINE "evil" for me.

As for something beneficial for humans that God has done, how about the crucifixion of Jesus for your sins and mine?

As for things that happen that defy explanation, how about the creation of the universe and the resurrection of Jesus? I know especially the second example of Jesus' resurrection won't fit into a test tube, but there is plenty of good, historical evidence that it occurred.

I'll eagerly await your explanations.

ECUMAN, I don't believe I even mentioned the word "evil" in this thread. Why should I bother to try and define a word I'm not even using here?

And I notice that you didn't bother to address my views on your claimed "God's" danger management style. Do you really think that God helps people get through traffic a little faster while allowing millions of children to starve or get hacked to death?

"I'm a little confused about your comment about the problem of evil. Could you give me a definition of the word "evil"?"

LOOK UP NEOCONSERVATIVE/REPUBLICAN. THAT SHOULD ANSWER ALL YOUR QUESTIONS. :)

2fer, Nemo, and Liberal:

How can you say that God allows evil when you can't define evil? How do you determine that wars, tsunamis, starvation, etc. are OBJECTIVELY evil? Or is that just your opinion that they are evil?

2fer, Nemo, and Liberal:

How can you say that God allows evil when you can't define evil? How do you determine that wars, tsunamis, starvation, etc. are OBJECTIVELY evil? Or is that just your opinion that they are evil?

While I do consider myself a Christian, I find this LTTE valid. I do NOT have all of the answers to the questions posed by the LTTE writer or those by who have posted.

I do have a friendship with at least one who has posted and we have differing belief structures and have had some wonderful dialogue. We accept one another for WHO we are, NOT what the other believes/disbelieves. That is a coreness of my Christian belief that coincides with the other person. I may not always be nice and/or polite when disagreeing with someone, yet that does not invalidate that other person or myself.

Shalom

Echoman -
I do not linger on this blog for your or anyone's else convenience. I visit on my time and for my own purposes. My lack of timely response only means that I have more important things to do than worry about your pissant god. If that doesn't please you, go stuff yourself.

I'm perfectly satisfied with any definition of evil you accept - St. Thomas to Billy Graham will do - as long as you don't define evil in terms of whatever your god says is good is good and therefore not evil. You folks are the ones who subjectify good and evil with relativistic morality.
You know full well that my statement was phrased exactly as theologians have phrased it for centuries. If you don't, then any dialogue with you would be pointless, for you don't know the history of the topic.
What you find sufficient evidence for is not what I find any evidence for, especially "good historical evidence."
If that existed, then the world's population would have one less topic to disagree about.
Even if Jesus is accepted as an historical figure, how does that existence prove the reason for his death? By your own second-hand accounts, three men at least died that day on a cross, and we can only accept ON FAITH that one of them had a reason differing from the other two for doing so.
Tsunamis are forces of nature: they are neither good nor evil, they just are. Wars are actions by human beings. I have no trouble with the concept that there are no good or just wars. Starvation can be due to natural causes or brought about by human action or inaction. These are all obviously different categories.
NEMO's point, I think, is that any god worthy of respect or worship and having the attributes ascribed to most gods would not allow these things to happen and still be considered "good" by sensible and sane human beings.
Since your god has ordered, according to your texts, the wholesale slaughter of entire nations for no other reason but to reward those with whom he had made a contract - which he also failed to honor - he would seem to be beyond even that initial failing and unworthy of respect or worship - assuming he even exists.
That's one reason Mark Twain suggested that perhaps the roles of god and devil had become reversed at some point in humanity's distant past.

2fer:

I have so many points and refutations of your points that I could make. I too am busy and I am not going to waste my time on someone who appears to have a closed mind on this subject. If you want to put aside the venom, and have a calm, rational discussion I'm open. If not, have a good evening. If I've misinterpreted you or misunderstood you, then I apologize.

I believe in God and have been the recipient of several "modern day miracles". And I agree God is amazing. However, to reduce God's powers to a traffic light coodinator is insulting not only to Him, but also to most Christians. If this article was written tongue-in-cheek, I can see the humor in it. Otherwise it is not a good representation of my God.

As I see it, from the beginning, God gave his creations (mankind) free choice. He provided a guide for life (the Bible) but left man's choices up to him. What is happening in the world today is NOT God's doings but mankind's. To intervene is to take that free choice away and we become nothing less than programed or controlled robots.

We are equipped to follow the teachings of the New Covenent. Problem is, some powerful people want to force their will on others, to control the world population, or at least their little portion of the world. That, my friends, is the work of the devil (the most powerful of all the evil forces).

This is my belief. Nemo and I have had discussions regarding believing and the lack of belief in God. He knows I have no problem with his or anyone else's lack of belief. I condemn no one because they are not a believer. So I ask you all to respect my right to believe. Question all you want, just please be civil.

Damn! God sure wasn't there for me on Battleground today. I caught every single red light ...... should have stopped at the ladder section at Lowe's!

I do agree it'd sure be a lot easier to jump on the Bandwagon if we still had the occasional Old Testament Miracles ... ain't nothing like personally watching the Red Sea part for Charlton Heston to rev' up one's belief system.

The only convincing rationale for disasters is that God allows terrible things to happen as a way to cure .. for example: as a child I had a huge boil on my arm that needed to be lanced. For whatever reason local anesthesia could not be applied ... and that knife really hurt .. but ultimately I was saved from the ravages of boil-puss.

That said .. a contemporary hippy-looking dude genuinely walking on water and peaceful raising the dead would catch folks attention - too bad there have been so many charlatans. Since He's probably not making a reappearance any time soon .. I'll stick with my pragmatic beliefs and hopefully value adding deeds.

"Problem is, some powerful people want to force their will on others, to control the world population, or at least their little portion of the world. That, my friends, is the work of the devil (the most powerful of all the evil forces)." Yvonne, are you talking about isalm or GWB?

Hillbilly,

Although I think (and always have thought) GWB to be an evil man, I was not speaking of him. He is small time compared to some of the leaders of some of the countries in this world.

In the past I have read many of your posts supporting GWB. I sincerely hope you will accept this is how I think of him and not jump track in this thread. My statement was not about him but was about my belief in Christ.

James,

I am totally sincere when I say I think Christ still does raise the dead. I believe He retrieved my son from the arms of the angel of death and brought him back to us. As you know, I am in the medical field and I believe his experience was not the result of modern medicine. Doctors told me he was going to die. And he did stop breathing and his heart did stop beating.

I am as sure of what happened as I am that I'm sitting here and typing this. God said he was going to bring him back and all He asked of me was to always give Him all the glory. This happened when my son was 21; he will soon be 39.

Why one person receives a miracle and another one doesn't is a mystery to me. I have had patients that were on death's doorstep who made a recovery. It's the same with car wrecks. Why some survive a totally demolished vehicle and others are killed in a minor fender-bender has no logical explanation (imho). I believe these are modern day miracles. (When a drunk driver hit me head-on I started toward the light. I knew I was dying. Why I didn't die, why I lived when others have died, is more than just good luck.)

It's OK that you are skeptical. I am just relating my own experiences.

Yvonne, you are a Christian, no problem with whatever you believe. I have never posted here defending GWB or anyone else. Anytime I post here is to illuminate the threat from islam. I have defended the war and railed about the way it is being fought. In your spare time read this story.http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/015728.php It is but a sample of the atrocities condoned by the evil leaders you are afraid to name.

To continue, relegion is as much based on folk lore as is Paul Bunion. I don't say this in a disrespectful way, it may be true to the core and for the sake of believers I hope it is. I have had that bright light in my eyes also but I never saw God or my departed relatives. I didn't recieve instructions to go back and convert others. Science taught me that man cannot create or destroy matter, and that is what I am made of. I am baffeled as to who made the matter as there are several dieties that are taking credit for it. My message to you and others that read this is, don't trust God to identify and protect you from all threats. Educate yourself.

I think God operated traffic lights when I was a kid.

Whenever Dad hit a bunch of red lights, he'd shout "Jesus Christ!" at the top of his lungs.

After he shouted they turned green didn't they? The power of prayer!

Pragmatist,
Your post is by far the best of the thread! Thanks for the mirth and levity.

Well, I see Echoman, for all his impertinence, impudence, and foolishness, still hasn't figured out what evil is, though he has lots of points and refutations that we'll just have to do without. Maybe he only wanted to nitpick someone's else definition so he could avoid the larger issue. Nemo used gentle words that I didn't, but Echoman abandoned that dialogue, too.

Thanks for your post, Yvonne. It's always good to hear from folks like you and Darrly whose experience have lead you to a more refined concept of divinity. We still disagree, but your spirit and hope are inspriational.
Thanks for clarifying you position, too, Hillbilly. Probably our only major point of contention on this issue is the relative danger to the US of which brand of fundamentalism for the short and long term. Have you read Jefferson on materialism and spiritualism?

Yvonne,

Thanks for telling that story again. I bet God likes for us to praise him like that.

Does God turn lights green? I don't think any of us know for sure but I believe that God cares about us, even our little problems. The Bible says that he knows the number of hairs on our heads.

I believe God has a plan but that he can get to where he wants through a zillion different paths so it does leave some opening for an intervening God.

James makes a great point in that it would be a lot easier to have faith if we could see some gigantic in-your-face miracle. What's interesting is that folks in the Bible who actually witnessed those type of miracles still had problems believing.

I agree wholeheartedly with Darryl. I'm totally open to other folks having their own beliefs. I think all of us get a little tense when people try to force their beliefs on others.

But there is a thin line there.

If something has brought me much happiness and peace, then I should want to share it. You just have to be careful that sharing it isn't shoving it down someone's throat.

I also understand some of the other questions. If God cares, then why does he let innocent children die. I've asked God that question and I'll tell you what he told me. For a small donation, that is.

I just love the way "faith" issues cause tension!

And people wonder why there are no "modern day 'Red Sea parting' miracles?" Nitpicker answered that possibly without even knowing; "....folks in the Bible who actually witnessed those type of miracles still had problems believing."

If there has to be "evidence" of something, then where is the "FAITH?" That is a core piece of Christian thought/belief/theology. A simple definition of faith; believing in something in which there is no physical evidence to support said belief.

Shalom

Darryl,
David Ramsey and I have been friends for almost 25 years, and he is a religious scholar, having attended divinity schools at both Duke and Yale. He is truly, one funny fellow, but has quite a sharp intellect to go along with his humorous side.
Like many, I see western religion abandoning the issue of war due to external and internal political pressures. Judging from the recent U.S. attorney firings, I can imagine this administration threatening churches who take on the war. I only hope that the groundswell against the President will continue until both he and his party are repudiated by mainstream America. Sometimes organizations have to die to be reborn. This may be true of the once great Republican Party, which is fast becoming a regional party.

Dear Lib/Con:

This administration has already threatened churches that take on the Iraq war. Recall the church out in California that was put under investigation by the IRS for "political speech" against the war, while simultaneously "faith-based initiative" money is handed out to right-wing churches like so many indulgences.

Amen, Brother AFT, amen!

AFT,
Thank you for your brave post. Many people who post on this blog, feel that God is a Republican political operative just waiting to turn traffic lights green and kill pro choice doctors. Seems like the tide is shifting, but the Dems have to grow a set before anything REALLY happens and so far, they are all talk.
As for "Faith Based Initiatives", the Iraq War has to be the largest project of that type for the neocons.
Thanks again for pointing out something the right wingers have no idea goes on...in the name of religion.

TLC,

You are correct that Iraq is not the model of Faith Based Inititaves. It is not the initiatives I have a problem with. It is with the faith he relied on. I sincerely hope that the Dems will quickly get on with their program to make this country safe and productive. I haven't heard what that program is but I rest assured that they have one.