Tell your grandchildren, Ken, that the people turned all decisions over to the fabled "market" in the pursuit of everyday low prices for a throw away economy.

... and tell them not to worry. There are millionaires being made every day through the Lottery (I mean every month) and American Idol comes around each year! Opportunities abound!

Tell them too Ken, that the fabled "market" has a way of correcting itself. Fisher-Price has to recall a million toys and dump them, moms and dads become leery of the brand, sales plummet. Guess what? Fisher-Price will correct the problem or pay for it dearly.

Ironically, I just now saw on the news that Fisher-Price (Mattel) has dumped the Chinese vendor of the toys and will no longer take shipments from that company. Same principle for the Chinese: make defective products and your customer will dump you. The "market" is correcting itself.

Ditto for other Chinese goods, I for example do not buy seafood from China.

Americans enjoy cheap products yet they are obsessed with safety in products, particularly products for children.

JDR, truer words have yet to be spoken!

Shalom

... but keep in mind, Ken, that while the "market" corrects itself, there are lots of short term tricks .. for example, ever heard of the super fund?

When a company fills 23 acres with 20,000 drums filled with birth defect nasties like benzene, toluene and methylmethacrylate - stored there because that's cheaper than dealing with 'em, so the company can offer "every day lower prices" ... and when the drums start to corroding and contaminate the drinking water .. and then money from every person in the nation can be used to clean it up - 'cause the company is long out of business (one of those corporate law things ya know) ..

but HEY - That's Market Forces.

==

Or is an oil storage tank collapses, resulting in large amounts of oil being released into the River ... What the hey - more money from your pocketbook can be withdrawn for clean-up so poor Ashland Oil Company won't have to pay. After all, Ashland was storing it legally 'cause the laws were lax ..

but HEY - That's Market Forces.

Ain't America Great!

==

Here's another - what's 3 billion in tax payer money? .. oopps I mean "Market Forces"

http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/white_mountain/projects/projects/ore_hill/oh_mines.html

JDR, do not confuse the issue with FACT! What is wrong with you? Do you not recall that facts only embolden those who choose to help the situation? LOL

Shalom

I see the Commie Chorus is chiming in early today.

The short answer, Ken, is that other countries aren't making cars and widgets for us to be nice, but because it is in their interests to do so. In thus linking their interests and our interests, mutual interests are created that act as a prophylactic against nationalistic hostilities. Literally, we could not afford to go to war with China, nor they with us. This is why (with one exception) no two countries with McDonalds have ever gone to war with one another and why Europe (highly integrated economically) will never see another war of the kind that dominated its history for two millenia.

Meanwhile, Darryl and JDR discursively BUY AMERICAN while doubtlessly (in practice) participating in the same global economy as the rest of us: buying the same gas, shopping at the same stores, driving the same cars (a Lexus SUV, is it JDR?), etc., etc.

nice try 444, a grade of "E" for the effort is all that is earned.

Shalom

" ... we could not afford to go to war with China, nor they with us."

Are you (and those like you) REALLY so sure about that? I have a hard time understanding all these "Patriotic Americans" putting their dying faith in the benevolence of culture that has been repressive for 3000 years just because they've been nice guys for a decade or two.

So I answer: MAYBE .. but meanwhile if we give them ALL the manufacturing - which you and the Totalitarian Commies in China seem happy about .. there is no capacity here to .. oh let's see ... How about some USA steel plate to build tanks and guns for defensive purposes?

I argue that your basic premise is not absolute and may even be simply wrong. WE cannot afford to go to war against China, but THEY certainly have the financial and political capacity to some day do so against us. Do you truly doubt they still have world domination in mind - have they magically shifted? I say no, they just realized it's easier (and more fun) as leaders of a capitalist country than as farmer commie's - more Mercedes and Game Boys.

They have a national master manufacturing plan - as America move towards socialism - we're getting poorer. I say it's in part because in the USA capitalism has become the old "rich get richer" / fabled split society we've worked ourselves into.

When China is ready, should they chose - meaning when they're ready to have it their way - they'll take us down.

How?

One Way: Slow down the export of 1/4" bolts, and America can no longer even assemble the gizmo's we get from China. Here?s a second way: Slow down the export of motherboards, and America rapidly grinds to a halt. As the ultimately planned economy, China first readies itself for these minor disruptions in exports ? until America caves in. We give them what they want, which will be incremental, like maybe a little less pressure on some monetary policy issue so they can eventually clamp down even harder.

Do not underestimate your new Asian "friends".

As for Buy America - I agree - there's not much one can do but bitch – and that’s the point.

The “Market will decide” is now a crap argument because for many items there is no longer a choice. On items where there is, I do try – for example I buy Toshiba and Baldor motors because they are assembled in USA. I recently bought a 1000 ton Chiller made in Charlotte along with $200,000 in duct made in South Carolina.

As for cars - I concede my Lexus sports car was made in Japan – but two other cars are Camry's - the #2 most-American-made vehicle - even more American than Chevy. I'm now looking for a little Mazda truck, assembled by Ford somewhere in the USA. I'll take a Ranger too.

Well, JDR, you could choose to build your own motherboards here in America or start a company that does. (I only give you half credit for buying Japanese cars made in America: if that isn't global capitalism, please tell me what is. Remember, the Japs were the Yellow Peril hardly a decade ago, when the Chinese assumed that position. But I hope that didn't stop you from buying their high-quality automobiles.)

Or you could choose to go nativist and grow your own crops and forego motherboards altogether. In the meantime, the rest of us will honestly and forthrightly reap the manifold benefits of a global economy.

As for my argument that economic integration curtails nationalistic hostilities, it is merely factual. If Wal-Mart stopped importing from China tomorrow, their economy would go belly up. That we couldn't manufacture motherboards for lack of bolts is also a dubious premise. If we can make Stealth fighters, we can make bolts. But they would cost a lot more than those our Chinese friends are willing to make for us.

Remember, the Invisible Hand of Capitalism is a friendly hand, like your grandfather's hand patting you on the back.

Darryl, don't take this personally, but you're a moron. I'm impressed you could spell "E."

brian, by stooping to such an insult, people can see the facts.

JDR, keep up the rationale, it baffles those who only look for more "capital," rather than bettering people.

Shalom

I know, Darryl, that's why I stooped to point out the fact in the first place, although I'm sure regular readers of the blog were in little need of edification on the point.

Your two posts, occasionally spiced with superfluous verbiage, are "yea for us" and "boo for them." Neither has ever been accompanied by the slightest hint of argument, analysis, or other intellectual content. See this thread for evidence. If you can point to one sentence that does not fall under the two categories I've designated, I will buy you a 1/4 inch bolt manufactured in China.

http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade1206

I'm not arguing for elimination of global trade - but am saying all things need moderation, and we're hanging out more than a bit.

I have heard and accept arguements that the Imigration problems we're now facing are infact just an outgrowth of the "Global Economy".

Of course we can make bolts .. but they will be slow coming 'cause we'll have to remake the automatic screw machines that turn them in mass quantities. We have literally shipped most of those overseas. Meanwhile, the economy will be limped a bit, and there are thousands of products like that.

Blind acceptance that Everything is always best when done through "Global Economy" .. is imho simplistic if not down right stupid.

"Your two posts, occasionally spiced with superfluous verbiage, are "yea for us" and "boo for them." Neither has ever been accompanied by the slightest hint of argument, analysis, or other intellectual content."

I couldn't have said it better brian. This post reflects what you said:

"JDR, do not confuse the issue with FACT! What is wrong with you? Do you not recall that facts only embolden those who choose to help the situation? LOL"

Useless drivel about "facts" with, ironically, no facts to back up the statement. Who else uses the "You speak my mind" statement more than anyone else I've ever seen on this blog?

Ok back to the conversation. JDR, China has made a decision to grow it's economy using a capitalist model. Politcally it's entirely different, but I'm speaking economically. The lifestyle has improved dramatically for many Chinese citizens, who have jobs and income thanks to us and other nations that import their goods. I would sumise that the Chinese, especially the younger generation, don't want that to end. Hence they become more of a partner with the West rather than an adversary. Would you agree?

Would China (and us) have been better off it it had remained a closed society like N. Korea?

I do not disagree, Dan. My point is it is WAY too early to tell, and a truly conservative position would be to maintain your strength until the trust has been verified over a long term.

For example, in my opinion, NC can now wholly trust all the other states in the union. That statement could not have been made in 1856, 4 score after our fathers brought forth
upon this continent a new nation ... and within less than 7 years there was a tremendous clash - a clash everyone agrees was about politics and the economy - the very conditions you cite above.

Ask me in 4 score years and I'll give a more informed opinion about how all this is shaking out .. but it would not surprise me a bit if during that time there was a tremendous clash between the newly rising Chinese and the old guard .. and it is very possible America will be caught in the middle .. and would it not be a good idea to deal from a position of great strength?

I can see your point JDR, I don't exactly trust a communist govt. Frankly I don't know of a model like China, capitalist economy combined with a communist govt., at least not on this scale. Didn't work that way with the Soviet Union huh?

I think the old guard will eventually fade away, the economy will lead the way. How long it will take I have no idea.

Our corporations have put too much trust in China as far as product quality and safety, that is clear. However I think that will correct itself as the Chinese realize we aren't going to buy unsafe products.

I have a product I sell to my clients that is manufactured in China. No problems with it's quality as it is closely monitored by the company who designed the product. I also make a tidy profit from the product as it can be produced for much less over there.

As for NC trusting other states, well.....I could think of a few that we shouldn't trust. N. Dakota isn't one of them :)

yea .. Chinese quality usually gets to world class - it often starts as crap but as you state, the crap doesn't last long. The Chinese government has been known to execute executives that have not lived up to standards.

I suspect you're right about the old guard - but I personally am not ready to bet my personal farm. I find highly inconsistent the cavalier way folks like Brian444 talk about centrally planned and tightly controlled China. You mention using that type of system here - for example Health Care - and the rafters shake.

"Our corporations have put too much trust in China as far as product quality and safety, that is clear."

Such naivete is laughable. It is not "trust" but rather the pursuit of cheap labor that has caused the problem. Forget communists, Bolsheviks or other bogeymen, but rather focus on the real reasons. Quality and safety have been thrown away when possible to acheive "everyday low prices". If you do not believe that, then look who's being naive. Those low prices come with a very, very, high price.

On an ancillary note, I believe THE LAST thing this country should be importing is F-O-O-D from third world countries---and yes, China is STILL a third world country. We produce more food than we can consume, but yet we continue to import food! Once again, we are at the fork in the road where we can choose to allow the government to actually "protect" us, or we can allow the free market to "exploit" us.

I guess you forgot to read this post Demon Deacon:

"Tell them too Ken, that the fabled "market" has a way of correcting itself. Fisher-Price has to recall a million toys and dump them, moms and dads become leery of the brand, sales plummet. Guess what? Fisher-Price will correct the problem or pay for it dearly.

Ironically, I just now saw on the news that Fisher-Price (Mattel) has dumped the Chinese vendor of the toys and will no longer take shipments from that company. Same principle for the Chinese: make defective products and your customer will dump you. The "market" is correcting itself."

I disagree that quality and safety have been thrown out. You honestly think Fisher-Price wants lead in it's toys that can harm children? Be honest now.

Taking only the most cynical approach, Fisher-Price doesn't want lead in their toys for the sole reason that the bad press harms sales and resultant lawsuits cost mega bucks. That is a strong enough motivator alone.

HOWEVER:

Fisher-Price detected the problem in an INTERNAL probe AND reported the problem to the Consumer Product Safety Commission. THEN Fisher-Price recalled the toys and THEN they dumped the vendor who applied the paint on the toys. Are these actions of a company that wants to poison children?

Tis you who is being naïve and quite jaded.

I have a friend who USED to work for Thomasville Furniture Inds. (before ALL casegood manufacturing was thrown to China/Asia). This person told me that even BEFORE this aforementioned event, there were more RETURNS than imported shipments. The reason; POOR QUALITY. Has that stopped the tide? NO!

As TLC noted, it is CHEAP LABOR. When a product that once cost say $300 to build and sold for $1,000 and in China can be built for $50 and STILL sold for $1,000, the profit margin has increased nearly six-fold.

Let us not forget that the employment guidelines, environmental regulations, OSHA, etc. are not the same in China, Asia, et al. So, the manufacturers who have sold the American worker down the tube are still making hefty profits. The "upper crust" executives are making larger salaries, outrageous bonuses, etc. while those whom they put on the unemployment roll are feeling lucky if they can have three meals a day!

JDR the following comment speaks volumes; "...talk about centrally planned and tightly controlled China. You mention using that type of system here - for example Health Care - and the rafters shake."

Shalom

I have followed this discussion and see a generation gap in thought. Dan and brian444 (I would bet) are in the under fifty age group. IMHO, this tends to produce a less cautious approach when dealing with a potential enemy. Everything is great for them currently, as in the present. Therefore it stands to reason everybody would act in a way to keep things friendly and mutually beneficial.

Hu Jintao, if we take into account his political affiliation and his actions, has aspirations of world domination just as JDR said. (And he IS the epitome of the younger generation of China, Dan.) He has made it his business to become all things to many countries around the world. He is working toward gaining the confidence and the gratitude of many underdeveloped nations by starting manufacturing plants where there were no former economic opportunities, water plants where there was no safe water before, helping people grow crops where there was no way to do so in the past.

In my opinion it is extremely naive to think there is no ulterior motive in trying to make so many countries beholden to China. Just like I think it is simplistic at best to accept actions at face value. Do any of you think China has loaned us the money to fight this war with Iraq out of the goodness of their hearts? Do you think there will not be a day of reckoning? And how do you think China will handle the day when they want their money and we have none to give them?

Trade with China is not a level or equal experience. We are already in an inferior trading position. If we keep burying our heads in the sand and pretending China needs us as much as we need them (in other words, mutually beneficial), we will be the losers.

"When a product that once cost say $300 to build and sold for $1,000 and in China can be built for $50 and STILL sold for $1,000, the profit margin has increased nearly six-fold."

You missed Demon Deacons other statement Darryl, "everyday low prices".

Your premise appears wrong, if you can factually correct me then please do so. The "everyday low prices" premise dictates that the product will not be produced in China and still sold for $1000 here.

Built for $300 and sold for $1000? Gee who's making such tidy profits? The furniture industry in Thomasville? Where do these factual numbers come from or are they even factual?

Here are some facts:

The Chinese made product I sell costs me around $150 per case. I sell a case for $200, thus make a $50 profit. The nice thing about this product is that it's used once, discarded, and then more are needed, kinda like diapers. Customers buy multiple cases at a time.

My supplier designed the product and attempted to have it made in the US. They told me it would cost 2.5 times more to have it made here, which would not enable them to provide a competitively priced product. Sooooo, they are made in China for less, cost me less to buy, and I can sell them for less to my customers. If I used your premise Darryl and attempted to sell a case for $500 instead of $200 for example, no one would buy them as they would be buying from my competitors. Get the picture?

BTW, my supplier has strict quality control over the product and I have yet to have a customer complaint about the quality of the product. My supplier has a vested interest, if quality is bad their sales will go down and their brand will be tarnished.

You guessed correctly Yvonne, at 44 I'm still a Spring chicken. That's why I call you my "internet mom"!!

I never said China didn't have it's own interests as a priority, hell it should. I wish our politicians did too, especially with illegal immigration.

Did you read my 11:21 post? I said I don't exactly trust communist govts. However I've never seen a model like China, capitalist style economy with a communist political system. I believe more capitalism, eventually, will breed more political freedom, especially with the Internet.

My point is that it is better to attempt a friendly rather than a adversarial relationship with potential enemies. I like Reagans approach: "Trust but verify".

Hopefully that paid off with N. Korea abandoning it's nuclear aspirations. Think China had anything to do with that?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6899345.stm

Clinton trusted N. Korea but didn't verify. The intentions were good but ineffective without verification. Hopefully we learned our lesson.

China will be on the world stage with next Summer's Olympic games. I think that will further open up the country to the world.

Yvonne is exactly right about the generation gap on such issues. I (a sprightly 40) have heard this letter from my grandfather (91) a thousand times. World Wars will do that to you. That there is a generation gap does not point to one side being right. As I argue above, there will be no more world worlds on the order of I and II because of Europe's economic integration. I would argue, in fact, that economic integration has changed to the degree that such wars are increasingly infeasible to the nations involved. Remember that Japan attacked us because of our embargo, which they felt threatened their economy.

On the command economy, I suppose, JDR, that you're suggesting--what?--something like fallback levels of bolt production, steel production, motherboard production, toy production, etc., such that the US would have at least a minimal capacity to produce such necessities. OK, it's not an unreasonable position. But how do you do it? Since the market doesn't already do it, it follows that government subsidies would be necessary, no? Bad idea, IMO, and for reasons are aren't hard to see.

I also think you're confusing Chinese command economies with the older Soviet model. Still, does seem clear that totalitarian governments can flourish economically by following basic market principles, but only at a low level. That is, if a poor nation wants to enter the global economy, it's best best is a totalitarian system that will provide infrastructure, strong incentives and disincentives (cut off head, e.g.), etc. But such a system has never worked for an advanced economy. Simply put, the "contradiction" you find in my argument isn't there: it's apples and oranges, and the Chinese, if they ever hope to rival the US, will need to change to a looser, more entrepreneurial economy.

I totally agree China quality can be great - that's one of the "problems": it removes a long standing arguments.

==

I'm not confusing Chinese command economies with the older Soviet model .. As Dan said - we've never seen a model like today's China - so we'd be a fool to accept it at face value.

It all reminds me of an old Twilight Zone episode - "To Serve Man"

A race of aliens known as the Kanamits land on Earth and promise to be nothing but helpful to the cause of humanity. Initially wary of the intentions of such a highly advanced race, even the most skeptical humans are convinced when their code-breakers begin to translate one of the Kanamit's books, with the seemingly innocuous title, "To Serve Man." Sharing their advanced technology, the aliens quickly solve all of Earth's greatest woes, eradicating hunger, disease, and the need for warfare. Soon, humans are volunteering for trips to the Kanamits' home planet, which is supposedly a paradise. All is not well, however, when a code-breaker discovers the Kanamits’ true intentions. Their book, "To Serve Man", is a cookbook.

==

As an example: The olympics may lead to more "openness" but to prepare the Chinese G-men are uprooting tens of thousands that will not make a great impression on the world stage .. all part of a kinder and gentler China with a market-based economy I'm sure.

I'm also NOT advocating an adversarial relationship .. but yea, Brian - fallback levels of bolt production, steel production, motherboard production - maybe not toys - would be a good idea. And not just to have the factories - we need the trained people to run them and the knowledge - we're giving it all away.

I contend that one of the secondary problems with american ecucation - parents being the sole main problem - it that kids have nothing to work towards. When I was growing up,we all wanted to be astronaults. Those that ultimate proved themselves less than space qualified ended up working in a factory - if they were willing to get their ass out of bed they could at least make a decent living. Those days are gone. The cream become lawyers or business men and such, but the bulk have very limited opportunities, contrasted to my "older" generation.

Now I'm not sure how to really get there - keep these oppotunities and "minimal capacities", etc, but I do know "the market doesn't already do it" .. and I also know while "government subsidies" are the EASY answer - BUT they are not the only answer - and the first steps would include recognizing the above and not being suckered into short sighted rhetoric like "the market will fix everything" .. cause America is getting fixed alright, fixed like my dog.

"The Chinese, if they ever hope to rival the US, will need to change to a looser, more entrepreneurial economy."

.. fine - but when they do that, and I agree it has a good chance of happening .. but it will be a blood bath getting The Party out of Power - 'cause it is a rare exception when a Totalitarian Government goes out peacefully.

Here's a scenario: China, hungry for oil goes aggressively after Russian far-east oil reserves. Maybe there's a "Trade misunderstanding", maybe a "New Tonkin Resolution" ... I doubt they will just grab it, they are too smart to be that obvious .. but should America try to intervene, China says "OK, In the interest of world peace and even though we're in the right, we'll back off. But ya know, we'll have to cash in some USA T-Notes to help pay for the hardship."

Unlikely? Maybe. Neither you nor I know - but there are a million other scenarios, and the only thing absolute is that nothing ever stays the same.

I forgot this credit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Serve_Man_%28The_Twilight_Zone%29

.. and I think the scenarios and conclusions may be over the top but this includes some interesting data:

http://www.infoshop.org/inews/article.php?story=20060215180623912

Did you walk uphill in the snow both ways JDR?

My kids at ages 6 & 4 are already talking about what they want to be when they grow up. My son wants to be a pilot and an artist (interesting combo) and my daughter wants to be a teacher.

I always wanted to be an airline pilot when I was a kid. Oh well at least I partially got there.

You make it sound as if, in your days, one had a factory job they could make a decent living. Perhaps in some factories, but I spent a good amount of time in the 1980's in cotton mills. Didn't see too many really enjoying life and it's earnings. I've been to all kinds of factories and always thanked God I didn't end up working in one! Putting widgets in toasters, spinning yarn, doing the same thing each and every day.

"The bulk have very limited opportunities". Where did that come from? IMHO, there are more economic opportunities in this country than any other. Can you name another? Taking advantage of the opportunities is an entirely different thing.

You sound as if there are a few lawyers and business people at the top and everyone else is flipping burgers or greeting folks at Wal-Mart.

The trick is to find sectors that cannot be outsourced. Health care, transportation, training/teaching, consulting, management, some govt. jobs, and law are a few that come to mind where one can make a decent income.

Sorry to hear about your dog, I hope he/she will recover ok.

`

"Fisher-Price will correct the problem or pay for it dearly."

...AND WHY????

Because those darned ol' liberals thought regulating harmful chemicals, heavy metals, and the like, would be a good thing. Those same liberals that you and others have called "nanny state" etc. etc.

But when it saves children's lives, it suddenly becomes ... Good?
So you see, government has a very large role to play....no matter how the "CONSERVATIVES" try to villify it.

`

This is the highest level of discussion on topic that I've seen in, well, a long time anyway.

Every one gets a clap on the back for some great points.

You can argue against Darryl's post but I gotta give credit for getting off the sidelines.

You folks have just about addressed every concern and misgiving I have about the subject but I just feel that you all should be commended for a great conversation.

Did I mention I had Chinese Buffet for lunch.....?

Damn,

TLC slipped in there before I got my post completed.

In the words of the great Gilda Radner: "Never mind!"

I was logging back on to share a thought I had on the way home:

Do you REALLY question - push come to shove - whether CHINA would lose in a ultimate confrontation? Yea we are economically connected - very deeply - but make no doubt my friends, China will win, and winner take all.

"Because those darned ol' liberals thought regulating harmful chemicals, heavy metals, and the like, would be a good thing."

Classic playbook material. Conservatives want lead in kids toys, dirty drinking water, tainted food, polluted air, yada yada yada, you fill in the __________.

Yeah Fisher-Price too, they want to poison kids with lead, part of a vast right wing eeeeevvviiiillll corporate conspiracy. Good for sales too.

Did you read Demon Deacon? If not, here 'tis again:

"Fisher-Price detected the problem in an INTERNAL probe AND reported the problem to the Consumer Product Safety Commission. THEN Fisher-Price recalled the toys and THEN they dumped the vendor who applied the paint on the toys. Are these actions of a company that wants to poison children?"

FWIW, my dad is a staunch conservative. His career? An occupational physician who actually assisted OSHA with several of their standards that were created in the early 1970's. He spent his career helping protect people's safety & health in the workplace. Imagine that, a conservative not wanting people to die for the benefit of an eeeeevvvvilll corporation.

Having worked in the field myself for 12 years, don't feed me a bunch of crap about conservatives wanting lead poisoning, etc. etc. Playbook stuff like that doesn't wash, that's why it stinks and it's so transparent.

How does that differ from the Nanny state? When people work somewhere or buy a product they are entitled to the best degree of safety possible as they don't necessarily have control over their workplace or a product they buy.

The nanny state is entirely different. It is when the govt. tells us we have to wear our seatbelts, our kids can't drink soft drinks at school, we have to ban trans fats, no cell phone while driving, basic choices the govt. thinks it has to make for us because they think we are too stupid to make them for ourselves. I wear my seatbelt because I want to, not because the nanny state tells me I have to. If some other guy doesn't want to wear his seatbelt and then his face becomes a work of art entrenched in glass...well that's his choice.

Get a different playbook Demon Deacon. You've made some sense since your vacation.

"Did you walk uphill in the snow both ways JDR?"

My kids think I did.

ALL kids at ages 6 & 4 talk about what they want to be when they grow up. I'll bet your son wanted to be a fireman at one time.

... in my days ... there's some truth to your descriptions, Dan - and few want to work on that assembly line - but most who have done it a while are resigned to doing the same thing every day - and live in nice houses and drive decent cars.

There is no doubt for the average Joe that wants work for someone making $20 / hour then go home to his kids' little league games, the count of those opportunities is less .... and yes there are a lot of folks flipping burgers.

For the Joe that wants to start his own lively hood, America still agreed place - I would suggest China offers more economic opportunities.

Agree the trick TODAY is to find sectors that cannot be outsourced .. but "in my day", in addition to health care, transportation, training/teaching, consulting, management, govt. jobs, etc, but "in my day" we had all those PLUS a factory in every town and lots of smaller businesses serving those factories. We did have fewer folks flipping hamburgers because most of us ate most dinners at home, with our parents, before going out to the little league game.

That's just the way it was, and that's just the way it is Dan, I'm not trying to be peculiar.

agreed place - nice slip on a great place :-)

JDR, I appreciate your last post and the one it gave clarity (not needed by myself though). I too remember the days of knowing that if one did not go on to higher education that there was a job in town that would pay a decent living (with benefits)!

Drive around High Point, Thomasville, Lexington, et al. There are empty buildings. The kids in high school today do not have the luxury that their parents/grandparents (ancestors) had.

I still say that the root cause of the loss of these industries is greed! The "higher ups" in the company's were/are more concerned with stockholders/stock prices than they are about the person who is helping the stockholder make money (hand over fist more often than not), i.e., the stock price going up.

I had a lady tell me three months ago that "furniture will come back, it already is." I do not know in what "plain" she is living. However, I politely corrected her. The larger question is, were this lady correct in that furniture "will come back," who will work in that vocation? People do not like to take chances any longer in job/job security.

Furthermore, where would these company's locate? These company's would have to start from the ground up; building, equipment, etc. We are talking about billions of dollars. I do not see it happening.

Generally the largest financial expense of a company is that of salaries. When products can be made cheaper (labor cost) and sold for the same price or higher, the market is closed on moving to a location with increased costs.

Remember as JDR noted, far too many of these closed company's have sold off the machinery. Most often, it has been purchased to place in a similar manufacturing facility in a distant land. So, company's would have excessive start-up costs to return their manufacturing to the US. The government has to bear part of the responsibility for this.

Shalom

Conservatives want lead in kids toys, dirty drinking water, tainted food, polluted air"

I knew it! I didn't want to believe it but in my heart I knew it was true. Thanks for verifying that point for me Dan.

Rufus,
Funny how "conservatives" bash the EPA etc, but then whine about government intrusion. After whining some more, they seek to put government into the bedrooms of Americans by insisting that abortion be banned. You really can't make that stuff up!

"I still say that the root cause of the loss of these industries is greed!"

I wonder what "plain" you are living on Darryl. Try to catch the concept please. An American company is sewing T-shirts and paying it's workers $9/hr to be generous, not including the labor, safety, work comp, environmental regulations we have. A Chinese, Vietnamese, Honduran, Mexican, you name it company can sew the same T-shirts for $1/hr. and ship them back to the US for much less. Americans want "everyday low prices", ie. a T-shirt for $5 instead of $15. Please tell me how the American company can compete Darryl?

You still haven't refuted my post about the "facts" of "everyday low prices". You still blindly think that the Chinese made product made for $50 or the American product made for $300 BOTH sell for $1000!!! It ain't so! If you can prove me otherwise? Facts please, please purty please, no drivel.

You guessed it right Rufus, I want my kids to suck on lead painted toys, drink dirty water, and eat tainted food. All in the name of profit. Man O man Rufus, you saw right through me.

Demon Deacon, I see your relaxation from your vacation has ended. Morphing abortion into a conversation about Chinese made goods......well I'm not surprised.

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Dan,
No morphing to it. Being laissez faire on regulation and then wanting to put government into the bedroom is quite hypocritical for those who call themselves "conservative".

Show me the facts where "conservatives" have led the way in eradicating lead in toys, pollution in the air, and dumping waste into our waterways! You can't do it, because it hasn't happened! "Conservatives" have ALWAYS resisted regulation designed to protect the health and safety of our citizens. They hurl the term "Nanny State" to deflect and defend the policies of allowing corporations to do whatever they please. Sorry Dan, but you have no leg to stand on here. Better move on to the next letter.

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The EPA was created by Richard Nixon.

Just one example DD.