You mean the General only gave us statistics that supported the case that his strategy was working??? This is so out of character for this administration.

The problem is that people have tuned out on this war. Like mushrooms we've been kept in the dark & fed fertilizer for so long that we ignore whatever they tell us. A change of management can't come too soon for this country.

`

Rufus, you are right on!

Sad part is Bush has now made the military his "fall guy". He knows he has limited credibility, so he has the General do what HE should be doing.

IT IS NOT THE MILITARY'S JOB TO MAKE POLICY!

This behavior, at the highest levels, is one of the reasons soldiers were not held up in high regard after Vietnam--can everyone say "GENERAL WILLIAM WESTMORELAND"?

Bush has now begun a journey that will ultimately be a black spot on our military.

`

Friend Robert; YOU SPEAK MY MIND!

Rufus & TLC,points noted!

I know Robert personally. He is a very well informed person. I believe this LTTE attests to this fact.

Shalom

The testimony given by Gen. Petraeus and Amb. Crocker was clearly intended to support their conclusions that the surge should continue. Nevertheless, the testimony included ample qualifications and admissions of problems. Their basic position was that continuing the surge could lead to a better outcome IF the Iraqis seized the chance for reconciliation that is in front of them.

The problem, of course, is that the Iraqis have had such an opportunity for some time and have not taken advantage of it. To my mind, the possibility that the Iraqis will now change course and come together is too slim a reed to hang America's blood and treasure on. It seems more likely than not that Iraq's future has slipped beyond America's ability to help it militarily.

Wow... I must be in an episode of the Twilight Zone because, TLC and I just agreed on something 100%.

~

No, Bishop. You just came from the twilight zone into "REALITY". :)

George Bush took, what appears to be an "honorable" soldier, and turned him into a mouthpiece for his failed policy. Add Petraeus's name to the list which includes Colin Powell and General Shinseki. Good military men, who were "USED" as political pawns on the Bush chess board.

And meow, before you open your pie hole, this is NOT good news for Democrats. This is BAD news for the United States Of America.

`

Excellent letter, Bob. Also excellent points, fellow bloggers. I loved how the Bush supporters jumped on the General Betrayus comments...all Democrats should apologize for the newspaper article. How dare anyone criticize a soldier...Grabbing for any straw it seems.

Interesting reading:

http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraq.html

Hi Carol,

Who said this about the moveon ad?

"I don't like any kind of characterizations in our politics that call into question any active-duty, distinguished general who I think under any circumstances serves with the best interests of our country."

Answer: John Forbes Kerry

Who said this?

“Someone who’s spent their life in the military doesn’t deserve ‘General Betray Us."

Answer: Elizabeth Edwards

Who said this?

“The personal attack on Gen. David Petraeus launched today by MoveOn.org is an outrageous and despicable act of slander that every member of the Congress -- Democrat and Republican -- has a solemn responsibility to condemn."

Answer: Former Democratic Sen. Joe Lieberman

Who said this?

"I think the particular ad overreached. I think it was not something that I would accept. And I think it was not the most effective way to get their message."

Answer: Sen. Jack Reed, D-RI

Who has been mum on the issue? Hillary and Obama.

Criticize the war and Bush all you want, but to call a 4 star general who has spent his career serving our country a betrayer? Fine by me, but politicians who align themselves with moveon.org, especially after this ad, do so at their own peril. I say go for it.

... totally agree, Dan - just remember this when the other foot stomps down

==

unrelated, and I only caught a small portion (I'll hear the rest later) - but thought I'd share this .. Alan Greenspan in a recent interview:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=14500893

btw - I've not actually SEEN the move-on ad.

Carol - good to hear from you again.

"We've begun to change tactics in Iraq, and in some areas, particularly al-Anbar province, it's working."
Senator Hillary Clinton (speaking to a veterans group in mid August.)

Well, that did not sit well with the defeatocrats who are heavily invested in defeat in Iraq:

John Edwards's campaign manager, David Bonior, warned her against "undermining the effort in the Congress to end this war"...
(UNDERMINING THEIR EFFORTS...GOOD NEWS = "UNDERMINING THEIR EFFORTS")

Bill Richardson: "The surge is not working. I do not give President Bush the same credit on Iraq that Hillary does."

When Hussein Obama later addressed the same group , he stuck to the defeatocrats' script. "Hussein Obama Sees a 'Complete Failure' in Iraq," The New York Times reported on Aug. 22."

Within a couple of days, Hillary had backtracked and began once again to parrot the defeatocrats' playbook by saying the surge was a failure after all. (What could she have been thinking?!!!)

Good news for our armed forces and America sucks for the defeatocrats and it is a very bitter pill indeed when it is delivered by one four star general who is "loathed" by their party's standard bearer.

General Petraeus is loathed by the likes of Moveon.org because they know that this messenger has more stones in his pinkie than all of the liberal democratic presidential wannabees (not to mention cowardly pseudo Canadians) have in their entire group.

Neocon,

I'm curious, why do you refer to Obama by his middle name? Do you do so with other candidates?

NeoCon is a master of hate, MemberName. He's not always wrong, often raising points for consideration, but one needs to work through the cloud of bigotry and overt disdain for all that do not agree with his closed positions. While his rants are pure Hard Right Hate, he claims to be 100% original. He usually posts opinions, rarely are they credibly backed, and occasionally he posts total crap and when caught, backpedals some but never admits to making any errors - even when they slap him in the face.

Other than that, he's a good dude!

Here's the ad JDR, you can click under it and open a PDF file

https://pol.moveon.org/petraeus.html

Glad to see you agreed with my 4:44 post. Even some Dems are smart enough to realize moveon is toxic.

`

Dan,
Seems you are a bit disingenuous when it comes to Moveon.org

Where was your outrage when "Swift Boats for Truth" ran their ads? Where were you when a genuine Vietman war hero was besmirched for the gain of an AWOL cocaine sniffing National Guardsman?

"Methinks thou protesteth too much"

Guess I'll have to repeat my earlier post:

Sad part is Bush has now made the military his "fall guy". He knows he has limited credibility, so he has the General do what HE should be doing.

IT IS NOT THE MILITARY'S JOB TO MAKE POLICY!

This behavior, at the highest levels, is one of the reasons soldiers were not held up in high regard after Vietnam--can everyone say "GENERAL WILLIAM WESTMORELAND"?

Bush has now begun a journey that will ultimately be a black spot on our military.
_____________

Membername,
James put neo in a nutshell for you, but what he failed to tell you, is that for all his intransigence, ignorance and hate...he's like a hemorrhoid that won't go away--He serves no useful purpose, and is quite the nuisance. When he claims he needs no friends, it's only because he has never had any. :)

`

`

Seems Americans are smarter than Bush gives them credit for being:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20843299/

`

"Where was your outrage when "Swift Boats for Truth" ran their ads? Where were you when a genuine Vietman war hero was besmirched for the gain of an AWOL cocaine sniffing National Guardsman?"

Dan Rather and Mary Mapes would be proud of you Demon Deacon.

If you want to defend the moveon ad, go for it. I cited several Dems who don't agree with the ad message. Hint: 9/18 4:44 pm.

If Dem politicians want to align themselves with moveon, go for it. Fine by me.

... well the swiftboat ads were a good counter example, Dan .. like Rove-Bush implying Ann Richards was a Lesbian, Max Cleland sympathetic to Osama, etc. etc.

... but I must state there is a difference between a politician being a lying and decieptful bastard to get elected and making petty a man who has dedicate an earnest life to the Miitary.

too bad most Americans don't look for the difference.

"Master of hate"? So not true, cRock-o-...feller, and your double standard is showing.

When Hillary made the blunder of suggesting that the surge may be (just may be mind you) working, she was pounced on by her komrades for "undermining their efforts". ( Also, one has to take into consideration the audience she was addressing. The VFW ain't exactly Moveon.org)

MemberName, I dunno, 'Hussein' just seems fit for a guy who us heavily invested in the defeat of of America in Iraq. Were Chris Dodd's middle name 'Ibrahim Salih', I'd address him as such.

Nothing offense to you of course.
*****************************************

I know this still America... for the time being anyway, and the first amendment still applies, but I find it highly ironic and downright laughable that someone who cringes behind the Canadian flag in fear when traveling abroad can find the gonads to criticize a man who has devoted his life to the service of this country and brand him a puppet of this administration.

Disgraceful.

"... but I must state there is a difference between a politician being a lying and decieptful bastard to get elected and making petty a man who has dedicate an earnest life to the Miitary"

Bingo JDR. Might

Ooops.

Might I add:

1) This was not an ad directed toward a presidential candidate, rather a respected 4 star general.

2) John Kerry thought this ad was wrong. See my 4:44 post.

Neo, you are foaming at the mouth again..It's amazing how rabies has affected your brain. you seem to be only able to spout the same nonsnese over and over again. I was unaware that one of the side affects of your malady was that you had no periferal vision, and that truth was oblivious to you. everyone that reads your drivel knows exactly what you will write, cause itis the same tired vitriole over and over again. for once, it would be a shocker to see you show some objectivity. Oh, I forgot, blind faith precludes objectivity. It requires no independent thought, and you seem to be very good at that.

My double standards? I'd sure like to see some examples .. and fwiw my hate is focused tight and limited.

Regardless, there you have it, MemberName, - right from the Horses Ass .. an' that ain't no typo .. the word from NeoCon, a.k.a. Pussy or Little Kitty because for months and months - as we were "staying the course" he railed about how we needed to "Bomb Iraq into a Sheet of Glass", yet after the 2006 election he immediately went into a "lost puppy" mode ... giving up so easy on an issue he had once fought with hard rhetoric - and in the vernacular that is known as .. well you get the point ...

JDR, in a case like this where you are serious, you are still humorous! I enjoy reading your posts! The rationale and reason presented help me to stay grounded and focused.

Shalom

I was speaking of the double standard by chiding me for being the 'master of hate', yet you turn a blind eye to you mynah bird, THE LIBERAL CANADIAN when he unloads on the republicans.
At any rate, MemberName's question was directed at me, not you. But you continue your M O of butting in when it doesn't concern you, as if I care what you think.

Mikeg sez I post "the same old vitriole over and over again"...while he continues to ignore the number of times we have heard about the beloved Clinton getting impeached for a "knob shine" from THE LIBERAL CANADIAN. Or how the 'bible thumping' wackos have taken control of the republican party.

Sorry Mikey, your words are meaningless, until I see you flog some of your cohorts in here.

However, I admit my neighbors' new puppy did nip me on the fingertip last weekend when I stuck my finger through the fence to pet him. He didn't SEEM rabid, but who knows?...

"MemberName, I dunno, 'Hussein' just seems fit for a guy who us heavily invested in the defeat of of America in Iraq."

Walker's a better middle name for someone who fits your description!

``

"HE DID IT TOO! HE DID IT TOO!

LOOKY, LOOKY, HE DID IT TOO!

NOT JUST ME! HE DID IT TOO!"

That pretty much sums up Kitty Kat's defense of himself.

No substance, just the usual duck and cover routine after he's called for his bullsh_t.

`

you're right, Kitten .. I do have a double standard, often ignoring the wacky crap from our Canadian friend. That I concede.

Is that it?

On further though, let me qualify. Checking this thread as an example .. The Former DoubleD said "Bush has now made the military his 'fall guy'" - which is close enough to the truth, and Former DoubleD raised "Swift Boats for Truth" - also close enough to the truth.

In between are tons of insults, which I general ignore, but there is no Bad Factiod for me to address.

Now if we're talking personalities, you may have a point about double standards - but usually I go after you for Bad Factiods, it's just progressed with your hard stance behind clearly bogus data.

Just curious, what's bogus about Hill saying the surge was working in Al-Anbar when speaking in front of a VFW group and the others slapping her hand for it and claiming she was 'undermining their efforts'?

"Duck and cover", THE LIBERAL CANADIAN? Duck and cover from what? YOU? LOL LOL LOL
No need to seek cover from a coward who hides behind the Canadian flag in fear.
BTW, if you think you're going to stop me from pointing this fact out by bleating this is all I have, you are sorely mistaken, my little pseudo Canadian. Every time I see you claiming someone "lacks stones" or dissing any member of the military, I plan to point out your cowardice in return. Deal with it little man.

Check out how one of the defeatocrats reacts when confronted with real journalism and not tossed softballs by Bill Moyers:
http://hotair.com/archives/2007/09/18/hot-air-tv-rep-jack-murtha-confronted-about-haditha-accusations/

I do not know enough to address your question - I'm really not following the pres' election stuff.

~

Feeling good about himself again, the little kitty kat wanders off to play.
Good kitty. Good Kitty.

`

`

OMG! I just went to neocon's link, above, and guess where it came from..............YEP! You guessed it! A right wing hate group website!

The same neocon who has a cow over the moveon.org ad because it besmirched General Petraeus, just LOVES this "sneak" attack on Marine Corps Colonel and war hero Jack Murtha. Murtha served in both Korea AND Vietnam, winning the Bronze Star and two purple hearts!

You can't make this stuff up! If this doesn't prove what a screwball neo is, nothing will!

Rocky, Dan, Rufus, Mikeg,
You have got to go look at this and then look at neo's posts!! Unbelieveable.

`

Yes, go there by all means. That's why I posted it frat boy.
Be sure to watch the video where the defeatocrat Murtha is asked something besides softball questions by Bill Moyers or Chris Mathews. To borrow a well used line in here: "He Can't handle the truth".

BTW, he kinda reminds me of uncle ted in this video. Except that he seems sober. But the bulging jowls and the anger is classic uncle teddy.

One more thing. Murtha getting the hell outta dodge and into that elevator...now THAT'S running for cover, THE LIBERAL CANADIAN. LOL LOL LOL

TLC,

Why do you refer to the site as a "hate group site"? Right wing ... certainly. Probably even extreme. But "hate"? ...

Mick, if I may...
THE LIBERAL CANADIAN refers to this locale as a "right wing hate group website!" because they did not have a pic of Bush making whoopee with a sheep or they do not have an add calling a 4 star general who has spent most of his life in service to his country a traitor.
If a link doesn't portray Bush and anyone connected with the military as evil sociopaths, they are "right wing hate group websites".

`

Beam me up scotty. No sign of intelligent life HERE!

`

There's your intelligent answer, Mick.

"Beam me up scotty"