Good News or Admistration Spin - here's the bottom line:

(all stolen then rearranged from http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0919/p12s01-wome.html?page=1 )

The struggle over power and resources ? which extends to the halls of government in Baghdad ? means that any prospect for Basra's riches being used to lift millions of Iraqis out of their misery and give jobs to disaffected youth remains a fiction.

Many Iraqis ? businessmen, criminal bosses, militia commanders, political leaders ? have designs on [Basra, which sits on 16 to 20 percent of the Middle East's oil reserves] ...

It could be an "empire," shimmering skyscrapers .. the next Dubai" .. says one Shiite militia leader ...

" .. we are a mouthwatering prize .. "

Baghdad [is] "rushing" to .. open up the sector to foreign investors, as urged by Washington.

Most say they regret having voted in 2005 ... they were tricked by the party's appeal to sectarian passions and considerations at the time.

"It was nothing but empty promises. Anything built on sectarianism and cronyism does not work," says Sheikh Manie. "Turbaned clerics sat here, and we are simple people, and they started telling us the marjaiya [Shiite religious authority] wants this."

Another elder is blunter. "They are gangs, not political parties," he says

Let's just say we're in the middle of a civil war where we're not on anyones side.

I won't say we're losing but that's a lousy position to be in. Even Patraeus seemed to have a problem describing what victory looks like.

JDR, thanks for that link. It was as Paul Harvey says; "Now, for the rest of the story!"

Shalom

Rufus, the question should be, if we declare defeat and withdraw, who do we say won? The Iraqis? Bennyladinboy? Iran? Somebody tell me.

Hillbilly,

Your question kind of encapsulates what a mess this is.

The day we invaded the Iranians certainly were assured of coming out ahead.

Perhaps it's Cheneys dead-enders or Bush's people that hate freedom.

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Hillbilly,

Saddam's gone. There were no weapons of mass destruction.

WE WON!

Now let's get out.

Of course, we can stay in and have another Vietnam if that's what you'd rather have on your hands. More dead Americans, a decimated military, and festering hatred towards Americans for generations to come. Maybe now you understand a little more how dangerous Bush & Cheney have been.

"dead enders"
"last throes"
"They'll welcome us as liberators"
"They hate us for our freedom"
"Fight 'em there so we don't have to fight them here"
"Mission Accomplished"

Why am I even trying to carry on a discussion with a moron? Yeah, Hillbilly, Bush lost Iraq. Get over it.

~

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Oh, and Hillbilly, why are you concerned about "Bennyladinboy"? The President once said he wanted him "Dead or Alive" but let him escape from the mountains of Tora Bora when we had him in our sights. Now the President is busy defending his war in Iraq, so Bin Ladin roams freely in Pakistan border region. Do you read or just listen to right wing talk radio?

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Unlike most Bush-Bashers, I do not believe Georgie or Cheney or any of "them" went into this with thoughts that were not "We think this is the right thing to do for America." We can argue all day about what "the right thing to do for America" really means, e.g., acquiring secure oil fields would be a good thing, but we'll differ on means-justifying-ends. I'll give them zero credit for clear thinking, but I just can't accept they intentionally did malice.

==

As for Hillbilly question .. here's my take:

If we leave precipitously - which is impossible regardless of the rhetoric - the Shi'ite dominated Militia win, the Iraq Government dissolves or becomes impotent. Local Clerics set up local Serfdoms, and we're looking at a bunch of little countries.

In that scenario: America looses, we once again prove we're both pussys and can't be trusted. The Iraqi people lose - back to the middle ages. Bennyladinboy wins because his contention has long been America is a pussys that can't be trusted. The Republican Party looses because they are in the White House.

World Wide Terrorism declines - maybe even stops - as the Fundamental Islamics consolidate locally.

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... but we're not - we're going to downsize next summer .. because America doesn't have the stomach for a draft - well they would have accepted it in October 2001, and this while mess would be over by now, but Rummy made some HUGE errors ...

... So next summer we're back to not really enough troops, and the Iraqi Government is still screwing around .. but by now all the tribes have either segregated themselves or killed off enough of each other that violence is way down ... and America declares Victory, and starts the long 2 year pack-up to go home.

The Iraq Government declares Victory, The Republican Party declares Victory, The Democratic Party declares Victory. Everyone thinks Bennyladinboy has lost because his contention has been shown as wrong - but Bennyladinboy remains silent.

The Shi'ite dominated Militias start to apply pressure to the Iraq Government, which soon crumbles. Assuming the Iraq Government holds out until the USA has withdrawn, local Clerics set up local Serfdoms (a bunch of little countries), the Iraqi people head back to the middle ages.

Bennyladinboy wins because his contention has long been America is a pussys that can't be trusted. Whichever party is on the White House gets the loss.

Eventually, World Wide Terrorism goes back up - as the Fundamental Islamics have the oil revenues to consolidated power and infidels continue to be infidels.

Good comments, Rock. Spot on.

(not bad for a closed mind, huh)

Just raggin on ya.

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Rocky,
Here's my take:

We immediately dissolve the "fairytale" government we supposedly have propped up. We use the Biden plan to create a confederation of three main goups with oil revenue sharing agreement and very little in the way of standing armies. We then say to Iran, either join us in this, or risk us "bringing Democracy" to your country. Use the Arias model from Costa Rica on abolishing the military and establishing Democracy, leaving the U.S. AND ITS ALLIES, a military staging area in the oilfields. Even I could support a long term U.S. presence as long as it is for security of the oil fields. As far as a long term committment to a failed policy nightmare, NO WAY! In fact, NO F'ING WAY!

Caveat to my plan:
Bush has got to swallow his pride and realize he's put us on a collison course in the middle east. That's as likely to happen as neocon admitting he's an idiot.

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TLC,

GREAT IDEA! Our brave troopers are Dieing every day in the hot dessert sun, and all the president can do is make his general tell congress we are WINNING!! WE ALREADY LOST! Bush just wants his cronys to get richer and richer before he is forced out of office in 2009. I wouldnt be surprised to see Bush make a new law letting him STAY president! GET OUT OF IRAQ NOW!

Donkey,

"I wouldnt be surprised to see Bush make a new law letting him STAY president!"

Too late...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070509-12.html

Hey Bishop ... maybr they'll declair Global Climate Change as a "Continuity of Government Readiness Condition"

Hey Bishop ... maybe they'll declare Global Climate Change as a "Continuity of Government Readiness Condition"

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James & Bishop,

Check this out:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20892483/site/newsweek/page/2/

Would love to see neocon "try" to address such a topic.

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Posting OPINION pieces by liberal columnists?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

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Well, we got that answer pretty quick. No refutation of the "FACTS" presented, just the usual drivel.

Thanks neo, you are as predictable as the sun rising and setting. :)

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