News-Record.com

Doug,

So, are you saying that we should just "suck-up" and be happy with what the High Point High Schools have to offer? Just be patient....and be grateful that we're a part of a large system because it's the only way to get good programs...??

I'm disappointed that this is all you can hope for, for High Point. I'm sad that High Point plays second fiddle to Greensboro and that it's almost expected and in your tone, a given, for High Point Schools to struggle.

I believe part of the difference in comparing the people of "north" High Point and the people in "south" High Point, is that for the most part, the "northern" folks are newcomers to the area. For me personally, I wasn't here in the pre-merger days. I cannot compare then and now as long-time residents can. Possibly, this is an advantage for me. Possibly this is why the folks in "north" HP DEMAND better. I EXPECT good schools, NOW, and others may just be saying, "well, they are better than they used to be."

I cannot force my ideas on anyone, but I will stand by my conviction that, "good" schools should be expected and demanded. It's great that they are "better" than before, but "better" is not good enough.

What I hope for is what I said, that all our schools are good. The way from bad to good is "better." I think we should demand continual progress and hold leaders accountable. Maybe not every innovation works as intended, but status quo isn't acceptable.

I'd like to see "School Boards...what are they good for?"...as your next topic of discussion. There are a few districts around the country that are going 'boardless.'

I don't think Guilford county would miss ours.

someone,

That's an interesting suggestion. Do voters just elect the superintendent?

I wouldn't want to be Dr. Grier's campaign manager.

From what I read, an election is the process that is used for the Super. Also, I've heard of the opposite--no Superintendent and just the school board. Now that's not a bad idea either, we'd just have to make a few 'changes' in the board. Actually, now that I imagine a board and no Superintendent, it's growing on me...an fast...

But, back to reality, no, I wouldn't want the job of campaign manager either. I'm sure we'd butt heads about a LOT of things.

Doug,

Don't you just love Charles Davenport, Jr.?

I do like Charles' columns, and I think he's very often right on the mark.

I thought his column yesterday (Tuesday) was outstanding! I hope you feel the same.

Doug - when you were at the HPE, you were an outspoken proponent of the HP choice plan. There's a thread over at the chalkboard where "Teddy" continues to ask "SC" to name one positive outcome of the plan.

Can you name one single positive outcome?

One positive outcome was that just about all ninth-graders received their first choice this year, many of them selecting among three schools on the basis of academic appeal.

It's hard to assess all the "outcomes" before the plan's first year has been completed although, as I wrote above, some indicators are discouraging.

Just curious, do you have #'s about students making selections based on academic appeal. I havn't seen those and would be very interested.

Also, the #'s about most 9th graders getting their first choice was based on initial lottery figures. I don't think the #'s are near as encouraging for students who have moved into the High Point zone since the initial lottery. I would be interested in knowing if you have those #'s. I know students at all three schools who have recently moved to the area and are not in the school of their choice.

Thanks for discussing!

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, DO NOT dredge up that "95% Got There 1st Choice" quote. I thought I was finished throwing up over that.

Doug, did you really fall for that? I truly thought that you were smarter than that....and just when I was beginning to enjoy your blog....

Let me just say Doug, that I have a 9th grader NOW that was lucky enough to play "lotto" last year. We know MANY current 9th graders that played as well.

A LOT of these kids DID NOT--Let me REPEAT--DID NOT even list FIRST what their FIRST choice would have been if they were not forced to rank the schools!!!! Does that make sense? I know for a FACT that these kids and parents tried to outsmart the lottery.

To make a long and old disgusting story short, Grier brain-washed these kids into thinking that the seats at SWH were practically GONE. Especially when he put the "Penn-Griffin" twist on it (They received a priority to SWH). SO, many of the kids ranked 1st on the application/lottery form what they thought would be the NEXT best thing to SWH....

This makes me SOOOO ANNOYED when I hear someone repeat the Headlines that day!! And I can still see Grinch--I mean Grier's smilling face on the front page of the paper.

It's a stinkin' LIE! Also, MANY of the kids ran off to Weaver, Weselyn (or however you spell it), Early College, etc...to AVOID the whole damn lottery!

So, before you state that "one good outcome is that 95%....blah, blah, blah...you should talk to some 9th graders FIRST. Don't always believe what you read in the N&R...oops, am I allowed to say that on a N&R website?

Anyway, THAT's the truth. So really, there's ANOTHER example of ANOTHER NEGATIVE to the smelly "plan." Our kids got their first lesson in how and how NOT to try to beat the lottery.

Sorry to RANT, but this is a VERY touchy subject for me.

I have to say I'm kind of blown away by the HP school controversies. I admit I don't know much about the lottery plan, but I am a High Point Central graduate. Back in my day there was this same noise from north High Point parents and their irrational fear that there kids may have to go to (gasp!) HPC.

My graduating class had two Morehead scholars, a student who got a free ride to Duke, a student who got into Princeton, and many more who got large scholarships to places like State and UNC. I didn't even finish in the top 10% of my class (just missed it) and I got a full four year scholarship to UNCC. I think it's pretty hard to make a case that we were getting such a bad education. Of course, I guess it will be a travesty if those middle class kids find out that there are people in their own town who aren't as well-off as they are. Man, that sure screwed me up.

Thanks for the posts. Yes, you can say that on an N&R blog - and just about anything else. That's what they're here for.

It's interesting to hear some of the reasons why school choices were made. Of course, there's no way to quantify these various anecdotal accounts.

I wonder why the possibility is dismissed that some students or their parents in the SW area would not appreciate the option of going to Central or Andrews to take advantage of unique academic opportunities. The assumption is that no one would go to either of those schools voluntarily. Yet the IB program has attracted students to Central from out of district for years. Also, many of the north HP kids who were redistricted to Andrews and now have been there for a few years seem to have had good experiences and like the school, despite its troubles.

As always, I predicate my view on the essential point that the academic programs must be delivered as promised. The school system won't have much longer to make good before even the school board reverses course. But it is critical to enhance the viability of Central and Andrews. High Point cannot tolerate failing high schools.

Andrew,

Are you Doug's son? You don't get it - folks in North High Point want a neighborhood school where all children on a street go to the same school. Families know where their children will attend - there is no uncertainty. Certainly HPC's IB program is a good one and if students from North High Point WISH to attend, then that's great. The difference is in voluntarily attending and having it forced down your throat.

Doug,

The only positive you can manage is that 95% of the kids got their first choice? I fail to see any academic achievement in that statement. Perhaps I should re-word my initial request of you -
Can you name ONE positive academic achievement of the High Point Choice Plan?

quest,

You asked for one positive and I offered one, but this sort of game leads nowhere.

You want one positive academic achievement? Do you think there's not one student in any of the three high schools who will benefit from a strong performing arts, science-technology or international studies curriculum? Are there no successful ninth-grade students in all of High Point? Can a student not have an enriching academic experience if he attends a different school than a child who lives down the street? Is a school the right school entirely on the basis of its location?

Rhetorical questions, not worth answering.

Andrew,

You're right, you don't know much about the plan. I appreciate your comments on your success at Central and I continue to believe that more successful children will continue graduating from there.

You, like many others not familiar with the plan, or like others that did not have to be intimately involved with the plan like to jump to the conclusion that race or/and economics plays a role in the dissatisfaction. Many would like to create more out of this than there is. Really, there is two blantant WRONGS with this plan.

1. CHOICE--You see Andrew, you went to Central on your own accord. You were NOT forced or TOLD that you must go. It's the matter of having your rights taken away. Surely a young college student like yourself, familiar with past wars and unjustices, can identify with this. Did someone DECIDE FOR YOU which college you had to go to? No, I assume that you and your family made that decision. (By the way, congrats on the scholarship).

2. The Plan is NOT as promised. It's misusing money--your parents' tax money. High Point was promised "World-Class" programs. MANY of the classes listed in those "world-class" brochures--DON"T exist. Many classes, the ones that one would want to excell in--let's say for COLLEGE--like MATH--don't even have teachers! My 9th grader had a sub--no, correction, MANY subs in her math class until FEBRUARY--now they are behind. And yes, she hopes to go to college too.

So, it's not about color, income, "haves" and "have nots" Andrew. It's about the rights.

I have said for a long time now, "If you make them....they will come." Make the schools TRUE magnets that are "World-Class" and you will not need the lottery.

Surely, Andrew, you are aware that busing is illegal. Well, this is modern day busing. I would expect a bright young man like you, pursuing a double-degree, to at least familiarize yourself with the details of something BEFORE you form an opinion about it.

Good luck in college. Maybe you can come back to High Point someday and be a part of the postive changes that are greatly needed.

Doug,

No, I agree, this is not a game. When my children are at stake, believe me, this is not a game.

Yet, you failed to answer my second question - Can you name ONE positive academic achievement of the High Point Choice Plan?

I truthfully wish one single person could offer an answer. Your attempt at an answer does not begin to answer the question.

There probably is one student "in any of the three high schools who will benefit from a strong performing arts, science-technology or international studies curriculum".

Do you not understand?

Forcing a student to attend a magnet school which may or may not interest the student is wrong.

Why not make the magnets voluntary?

Why not remove the uncertainty and allow the 8th graders to have peace with the knowledge that they know they have a neighborhood school to attend and also can voluntarily choose a magnet if they so desire?

Doug and Andrew,

Just wondering your thoughts on how students were admitted to the Central IB program this year?

At Grimsley and Smith, they account for grades and former achievements when admitting students. This year, Central admitted kids via the lottery that DID NOT consider the academics of the kids.

Don't you think this will "water-down" the IB program? It's impossible for it to be the same program that it was when Andrew was there.

quest,

I agree that the plan will collapse if the academic programs don't work.

I supported the plan as an alternative to creating a better racial and socioeconomic balance at the three high schools through redistricting, which would not have required special academic programs and would have eliminated uncertainty about school assignments. It's just that more people in north HP and Jamestown would have been unhappy with those assignments. Supporters, including me, underestimated the opposition to the plan before it could be given a chance to work - and now it may not work. In some ways, that may have been a self-fulfilling prophecy. I'd say at the end of this year it deserves a thorough evaluation and a decision regarding its future.

Doug

I don't know if you skipped over my post or misinterpreted it, but I wanted to clarify.

There was no assumption that students from North HP don't want to take advantage of Academic Offerings at Central or Andrews. My post stated that there are students at ALL three schools who don't want to be there.

You also state that it is critical to enhance the viability of Central and Andrews. I would like to add that the same thing needs to be done for SW. I have talked to many parents who live in all parts of High Point and they really don't want any of the schools as they presently are. The students are having a hard time choosing one school because at this time, none of them are very appealing.

Also, about quantifying why students chose their school, I don't understand why that would be so difficult. Survey the present 9th grade class and I think you could have your answer. I'm surprised that hasn't been done. I thought that maybe it had when you stated that many had chosen their schools based on academic appeal. I would really like to see the results.

This issue isn't a North High Point vs. the rest of High Point issue. This is an issue of Academic Excellence and all of High Point is being failed.

Thanks again.......

taxpayer,

As for IB at Central: The basket is 10 feet for tall players and short players alike. Short players just have to jump higher. I say let them try if they're game.

Kay,

Thanks for your comments and questions. A survey of ninth-graders would provide good information, but I'm not aware that it's been done. We share the goal of academic excellence and disappointment at lack of progress so far.

Doug,

I appreciate all your time in answering all these posts! I wonder if Andrew has time today, if he could respond with his thoughts about what he thinks about the current IB enrollment.

Sure, let anyone try you say...but I wonder how the kids that are academically strong (I assume that Andrew was one of them) feel about having students in the same IB courses who have no where near the strong academic background. If this were a "anyone can try" course, then why the stringent standards at Grimsley to attend?

I imagine the frustration on the teacher trying to teach those that are not really qualified?

I ask this becuase I know of a couple of kids that are NOW attempting the program that do not have the grades to have been accepted in the old manner of acceptance--pre-lottery. These kids are struggling and I would imagine that for the teacher, this is difficult. I would think that she would HAVE to lower the basket a little and take MORE time out, unnecessarily, to help the ball go in.

What are your thoughts Andrew?

Thanks.
Also, Andrew, I noticed how LATE you posted last night! You go to bed at a decent time if you want to continue those good grades!! I'm sure your father agrees!!

Andrew plays in UNCC's pep band, which is heading to Worcester, Mass., today for tomorrow's NCAA basketball game against State, so he may not be able to post.

Or maybe he's just not up yet.

Go Niners!

I know that in The Early College of Education at SW, there are some students who havn't been able to keep up with the load academically. These students (unless a new decision has been made) are being placed back into the lottery.

I really think this is unfair because just as with the IB program at Central, there were no pre-qualifiers. These students took a risk and tried to achieve a high standard academically. After one year, they are not only being benched (taken out of The Early College),they are being thrown out of the game(put back in the lottery).

I wonder if students who struggle academically in the IB program,other academies, or even in the traditional course of study are being placed back in the lottery if they are struggling.If not, I think we have a double standard.

Full disclosure, I'm Doug's son, but the one that disagrees with him on most things. I'm the "liberal son."

Mad, actually I was in HPC's district, so that's where I went. If I'd lived outside, I may have made the choice to go there for the IB program, but I may not have. I certainly did not have the option of going to Andrews or Southwest, so yes I was just told where I would go. No choice was involved. The point of my post was not to say anything positive or negative about the lottery plan, but to question people who are so angered that their kids can't go to Southwest.

And as far as colleges go, my choices were of course limited by factors I couldn't control, such as acceptance and financial considerations.

You are right, injustices are important to me. The biggest injustice I see here, though, is that there are schools in High Point that are supposedly inferior to other schools. Someone needs to step up and work on the problem instead of figuring out how to avoid it.

Taxpayer,
There never was an adademic requirement for the IB program, anyone could try it. I found though that students knew it would be hard going in and there were very few willing to take on the challenge who weren't capable of it. You're right, there were a couple who struggled, but there likely would be even with grade requirements. It's just like the kids with great grades in high school who struggle in college. And thanks for your concern about me being up late, but it's actually a necessity to get the grades. Engineering professors don't think you should sleep, so they give us incentive (give up your life to the homework or fail!) to stay up until 3 in the morning. Always a little time to post here though. Especially because this will be one of the very few times you'll see me backing my dad up.

Andrew,

I totally understand the requirements of an engineering student. I dated and married one.

Also, I'm in 100% agreement that "SOMEONE needs to step up and work on the problem instead of figuring out how to avoid it." TOTAL AGREEMENT!

Although I know that you have better things to do than listen to the struggles of High Point parents and citizens, your VERY sentence is what we are also saying. The sad part is, the VERY person hired to do the job of "stepping up and working on the problem" is the same person that has figured out a "way to avoid it."

I'm talking about our Superintendent, Terry Grier and his latest tactic for avoiding "working on it." Last year his avoidance tactic was called the "High Point Choice Plan". This year his avoidance plan is called, "Shuffle Title I Percentages"-- He just found a brilliant way to avoid "sanctions" for Andrews. He's the biggest "AVOIDER" in all of the county.

So, until this "SOMEONE" is identified to come in and miraculously wave a wand over ALL THREE SCHOOLS, we are wasting our money on Grier. And he makes well over what most engineers makes.

If you run across any "somebodies", please send them up here.

The funny thing about all of this is that very few people have addressed the original issue - deconsolidation of the school system. I can't really see any benefit to it, except that it would (I would assume) rid High Point of Grier, which sounds like it would be a good thing.

Great article in today's Rhino about the School Board's achievement gap committee meeting on Tuesday. Here's an interesting quote from the article about our superintendent:

"Terry Grier said that assigning a teacher to a school where that teacher didn't want to go doesn't work"

Hey Terry, it DOESN'T WORK FOR STUDENTS EITHER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Okay, I'll bite on steering the comments back to the original topic.

Anyone who uses N.C.'s SAT scores to assess the quality of the state's public schools relative to those in other states doesn't have the foggiest idea about education.

And, Doug, did you ask how returning Meck Co. and other districts to a pre-Swann era will help educate children?

SAT scores may not prove the quality of a child's education, but it does have a big impact on college admissions and scholarships. Don't be so quick to ignore test scores.

Yes, Kenny, SAT scores for individual students do play a major role in college admissions. There's no arguing that point, no matter how hard college admissions officers argue the point that they look at a variety of other factors. (Most don't.)

My point is that using SAT scores as your basis for state-to-state comparisons of education is sketchy at best and dishonest at worst. In North Carolina, 70 percent of high school seniors take the test. In 22 other states, less than a fourth of their high school seniors sit for the SAT. So you're comparing the top students in other states, who are taking the SAT so they can go to top colleges in California or on the East Coast, to N.C., where the SAT-taking population includes everyone from valedictorians to the kids whose straight-C averages might barely get them a diploma.

Mississippi's average SAT score this year was 1,109 compared to NC's 1,006. Arkansas, where 6 percent of students take the SAT, had an average score of 1,124. (The U.S. average is 1,026.) So, from those numbers, would you argue that public schools in Arkansas and Mississippi are that much better than the ones here?

If anyone wants to be honest about the use of SAT scores in state comparisons, put N.C. side-by-side with states where the SAT gets a good workout. This year, NC's SAT score was one point lower than NY (87% participation rate), tied with Maine (76%), three points above Pennsylvania (74%)and 14 points above the birthplace of No Child Left Behind, Texas (52%).

The N.C. SAT report has a ton more. Check out page 60 of the PDF file linked there.

John,

Wish I had time to sift through that, but I have a test to prepare for this afternoon. My point, however, is that college is continuing education, so number of students going on to college should factor into the determination of how good or bad a states high school system is. Once again, in this case, SAT scores (as well as ACT) come into play.