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I'm glad you brought up the issue of torture, Doug. That's yet one more reason not to do it: It jeopardizes prosecutions, sometimes of people who are clearly guilty.

And torture, if it occurred, would not jeopardize only the case against Mohammed himself. Any testimony Mohammed might otherwise have been able to offer against other suspects also would be tainted ... as might any testimony anyone who engaged in torture might otherwise have to offer (jailhouse confessions, etc.).

There are many issues here.

Critics of torture often say it's unreliable, subjects give false information just to stop the torture, and so on. In this case, Mohammed apparently gave up useful information and within a fairly short time of his capture. Could that info, if it led to more arrests or forced al-Qaida people to go on the run or scrap plans, have prevented another major attack somewhere? If busting Zacarias Moussaoui's knuckles in August 2001 could have prompted him to give up everything he knew, it might have stopped 9/11, right?

I'm not advocating torture as a policy. It's not even easy to define. Sleep deprivation, loud music, leaving someone without clothing in a chilly cell -- do they count as torture? How much stress can a prisoner with lots of knowledge be subjected to in order to coerce conversation?

With respect, Doug, no, there really aren't many issues here.

Torture is illegal for good reason: Not only is it unreliable, but professional interrogators say you almost always get more, and better, information by building relationships and trust over time with the detainee. Not only does it do tremendous harm to its victims, it damages even those who perpetrate it. It undermines the whole notion of a justice system, which is built around getting at the truth.

Every defender of torture (and I'm not claiming you are one) wants to raise the ticking-bomb scenario. If you think torture is the only choice in that situation, then you should take your chances in the legal system after the emergency is over. If you really have averted a disaster, I don't think a jury of your peers is going to give you a hard time about it.

As for defining torture, there's a body of federal and international law to which we can refer. And in a pinch, there's also the Golden Rule.

I'm not sure I follow your argument in regard to the ticking time bomb defense. Do you mean go ahead and torture a prisoner if you're willing to lose a prosecution later? I think anyone would have been willing to let Moussaoui off the hook if he spilled about 9/11 and that had been stopped.

I love the Golden Rule but it's not part of our legal codes. People are punished for their crimes even if we'd like to get off if we were charged with a crime.

It may absolutely be true that no coercive measures were necessary or advisable in the interrogation of Khalid Mohammed. And, if all useful info was extracted from him by May 2003, where has he been since and why can't he be put on trial?

[[Do you mean go ahead and torture a prisoner if you're willing to lose a prosecution later?]]

Yeah. IF you're going to torture a prisoner, you should be prepared to be prosecuted for that torture, although I doubt anyone who really did avert a catastrophe would be convicted.

[[I think anyone would have been willing to let Moussaoui off the hook if he spilled about 9/11 and that had been stopped.]]

Not sure what you mean by this. Or did you mean "willing to let Moussaoui's torturers [if any] off the hook"?

[[I love the Golden Rule but it's not part of our legal codes. People are punished for their crimes even if we'd like to get off if we were charged with a crime.]]

Neither is torture. If you don't think you'd enjoy spending the night nude and soaking wet in a 40-degree cell, or spending hours bound in so-called "stress positions," consider the possibility that perhaps we shouldn't inflict that on someone as an interrogation technique.

At any rate, I agree with you that Mohammed should be put on trial, and I fear that the reason he hasn't been has to do with torture. It'd be nice to be wrong, though.

There is a very good reason life in prison is better than martyring these guys-instead of 60 virgins, you have Benny and Jo-Jo from Cell Block D. The only virgin will likely be the new prisoner himself, most likely a short-lived phenomonon.

A Colorado prison would probably not fall under the Koran's idea of paradise.

Actually, SCS, these guys most likely would be headed for Supermax, so Benny and Jo-Jo from Cell Block D are out of luck.

I leave it to the individual reader to decide whether that's a good thing or a bad thing.

I love it when some would rather sit down and have tea and cookies with someone who has information that is needed immediately rather than exert a bit of pressure in order to get the information needed. Dang sure glad they weren't in charge of interrogation in my unit.

Yep, Lex is the kinder, gentler kinda warrior.
Beat 'em into submission with your kindness, Lex, I'm sure it will work.
Oh, and while you're having tea and cookies and "building relationships" with enemies that only want to kill you, they're killing your sons and daughters with homicide bombs and IED's.
It's a lot different there in the Journalistic Tower than it is out in the real world, my friend.

What is this fascination with virgins, anyway. This just gives the most glaring example of what is perhaps the almost insurmountable differences in our cultures. Western men would probably go with 60 Vegas showgirls, or 60 Angelinas etc. Even if you are Arab, how can you spend your time in paradise pretending you're a teenager again, saying stuff like; "Come on, your parents won't find out" or 'I really do love you" or "we got to take this to the next step, girl. Show me you love me." These guys are completly crazy.

I bet also that all non-virgins, from all over the world, are just stewing, realizing they are no longer eligible to serve such a noble undertaking.

I don't believe it's as a result of torture that Mohammed hasn't been rushed to trial, but one of national security concerns of possibly making public certain aspects of the information coaxed from Mohammed as a result of a trial.

SCS,

I think virgins, in the ancient days, were more concerned about losing their virginity in great haste in light of the fact of the practice of virgin sacrifices in the ancient societies. This being the case, the "martyrs of Allah" are gonna be sorely disappointed when their reward in Heaven is "tainted."

There's a very good reason that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed hasn't been brought to trial. The public may learn all about it in a few years. But for now, let's just assume he's of more value in his current status.

Interrogation techniques, such as the cold water, bright lights loud music and sleep deprevation are no more than games and usually bring about very slow results if any.
Some consider this torture since it goes on sometimes for days. Glad we didn't use such stuff in my days. However our methods did get results and much faster, usually minutes rather than days. Saved lives and that was the end result. Now folks want the techniques to be even more PC. Wonder how many who would adopt the PC methods have ever needed the answers and seen the result of not getting them?