Trying to undermine the Electoral College
This bill in the N.C. Senate pushes for the election of the U.S. president by popular vote but does not seek to do away with the Electoral College.
How's that? It would commit North Carolina to joining the National Popular Vote movement. When states holding at least 270 electoral votes -- an electoral majority -- joined, the agreement would go into effect.
Then, after each presidential election, all those states would give their electoral votes to the candidate who won the popular vote nationally -- no matter how the voters of each individual state actually cast their ballots.
So, suppose for example that John Edwards carries North Carolina on Election Day 2008 but Rudy Giuliani wins the popular vote across the country. Under the agreement, North Carolina would pledge its 15 electoral votes to Giuliani. So would all the other states holding 270-plus electoral votes, ensuring Giuliani's election.
This would rule out a repeat of 2000, when Al Gore won the popular vote but George Bush captured an electoral victory. A similar occurrance nearly took place in 2004. With only 120,000 more votes in Ohio, John Kerry would have surpassed 270 electoral votes even while losing the nationwide popular vote to Bush.
For that reason, the Electoral College system is increasingly unpopular. Of course it could be eliminated by constitutional amendment but that would require ratification by three-fourths of the states. This approach could be accomplished with participation of less than half the states, as long as they accounted for most of the electoral votes. States are already authorized to apportion their electoral votes however they choose. All but two give all theirs to the candidate who wins the popular vote in the state. Maine and Nebraska award them by congressional districts.
I don't like this plan. I would not want to see North Carolina give its electoral votes to a candidate who didn't win the state. If we wanted to adopt the Maine-Nebraska system, I could live with that. But I'm also OK with the Electoral College. It's historically very rare when the result differs from the popular vote, and I like the fact that the EC boosts the importance of smaller states just a little.
This bill has passed a Senate committee, but I hope it will be defeated on the floor.
Comments (13)
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Good post, Doug. Inasmuch as this plan would seek to subvert the constitutional design, I wonder if it would survive court challenges.
Posted on May 11, 2007 1:01 PM
It's a brilliant conception in that it seems not to violate the letter of the constitution. But you're right: it subverts the clear intent of the founders. I don't know what the courts might do with a case like this.
Posted on May 11, 2007 1:08 PM
I addressed this just a bit in my post on the issue, but I think there are some very important issues to deal with when we talk about "original intent" and the Electoral College.
From my post: Historically, I think there is little doubt that the Electoral College was put in place for pragmatic and practical reasons. In the late 1700s it was just the easiest way to get elections over with and results reported to the federal government. The People would vote in each state and �Electors� would go to DC and report the election results by casting their votes. Back in the 1700s, there was no such a thing as "Election Night Coverage from MSNBC."
In 2007 and taking into consideration the original intent and purpose of the Electoral College, we have no need for it. Doug makes a great point, however, in that the College gives smaller states more of a voice in elections. But then again, "original intent" and "purpose" can be skewed... therefore, we have a debate on our hands.
But the Electoral College is meant to mirror the popular vote, is it not? If so and if we truly have come to a place where it is so easy to count the popular vote, why don't we just use that? If our government really is a government of, by and for the People, then the People should be have the last say... in their popular vote.
But Doug does have a good point: It would be better to scrap it through the real process of changing the system: The Amendment Process.
Posted on May 11, 2007 3:42 PM
The Electoral College was designed to mirror the popular vote in a similar way that the composition of Congress is meant to do so.
The House gives proportional representation to states according to their population. That's democratic, although it is possible for one party to win a majority of House seats even though most people actually voted for candidates from the other party. Then there's the Senate, which gives equal representation to each state regardless of its population. Originally senators were't even elected by popular vote but chosen by each state's legislature.
It's all sort of a hybrid. The popular vote is important and has the greatest influence over the selection of representatives and the president, but that's tempered a bit by the desire to even up the score between larger and smaller states. The Electoral College does that to a relatively slight degree in presidential selection, while the senate achieves that goal to a great extent in terms of how Congress functions. I really appreciate the balance of it.
Posted on May 11, 2007 5:24 PM
You get a A+ finally in understanding the Founders and the constitutional authority in a Republic form of government for the people. I am repeating your comments in hope that you will not even think of a amendmening this last constitutional thread of the peoples rights and liberty. This is not a democracy nor a system of mob rule. As Ben Franklin said upon approving the constitution, after being ask what form of government we have. " It's a Republic if you can keep it?"
at the composition of Congress is meant to do so.
The House gives proportional representation to states according to their population. That's democratic, although it is possible for one party to win a majority of House seats even though most people actually voted for candidates from the other party. Then there's the Senate, which gives equal representation to each state regardless of its population. Originally senators were't even elected by popular vote but chosen by each state's legislature.
It's all sort of a hybrid. The popular vote is important and has the greatest influence over the selection of representatives and the president, but that's tempered a bit by the desire to even up the score between larger and smaller states. The Electoral College does that to a relatively slight degree in presidential selection, while the senate achieves that goal to a great extent in terms of how Congress functions. I really appreciate the balance of it.* Doug
Posted on May 11, 2007 6:18 PM
Back in the 1700s, there was no such a thing as "Election Night Coverage from MSNBC."* Matt
Sure there was! You never heard of this amazing internet login quote during the American revolution?
" One if by sea, two if by land"
And for instant election returns in the community, one had to only visit the local saloon and get the scoop or results within 5 minutes after the poll close in the saloon along with a good pail of Ale.
Posted on May 11, 2007 6:29 PM
Wrong Connie... in 1795, a person in Salem, North Carolina would have NO way of knowing just the election results from New York, much less the results from the ENTIRE nation until MONTHS after the elections.
Posted on May 11, 2007 9:47 PM
Wrong Connie... in 1795, a person in Salem, North Carolina would have NO way of knowing just the election results from New York, much less the results from the ENTIRE nation until MONTHS after the elections.*Matt Hill Comer
Matt if that is true! Than the battle of Kings Mountain would have not been fought nor the results would have been posted until 4 years later after the Tory surrender at Yorktown.
It appears that you miss a communcation skills course in the American revolution. Never mind, they don't teach that anymore in public schools nor the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, much less American Revolutionary history.
By the way Matt! If the American communication skills were so lacking and backwards in revolutionary warfare. Can you explain why the first submarine in history was a American name the Turtle that scare the hell out of the British fleet in New York city habor for 3 months.
Posted on May 12, 2007 12:37 PM
Wrong Connie... in 1795, a person in Salem, North Carolina would have NO way of knowing just the election results from New York, much less the results from the ENTIRE nation until MONTHS after the elections.*Matt Hill Comer
Matt! Maybe you should use this to make your point on communciation skills in the 21 century instead of the American revolution.
Wrong Connie... in 2006, a person in Knoxville, Tennessee would have NO way of knowing when a Congressman would be home from Washington, DC. Michael Aaron Lay was pulled over at 4:57 am on a Thursday morning heading down Highway 321 in Dallas, Gaston County. Presumably Mr. Lay was leaving his “home” in Cherryville on his way to I-40 and Knoxville, TN much less the overnite results to the ENTIRE nation until MONTHS after the elections.:>
Posted on May 12, 2007 10:55 PM
Than the battle of Kings Mountain would have not been fought nor the results would have been posted until 4 years later * CM
Matt! Now why do you think I used Kings Mountain as an example of communication skills in American congressional history. You do understand what district Kings Mountain is in? :>
ps....My Tory spies are much better than a truckload of Log Cabin Republicans.
Posted on May 12, 2007 11:03 PM
Hey Matt! How does it feel to be a big media internet star now since the Patty Frat party is out in the open?
Thank God! At least we have remove Nicole Smith, American Idol, Paris Hilton, Don Imus off the front pages of Pop culture with North Carolina own Congressional scandle.
Posted on May 13, 2007 10:42 PM
Connie... I admit, the attention to my blog is nice, but I'm more interested in seeing McHenry go down: There is no way he hasn't done something illegal in his McHenry-Lay Voter Fraud Scandal. :)
Now to your comparison about "results" from a battle not being known until four years later.
Firstly... I said months. Secondly... The victor in a battle doesn't have to be counted. Not like ballots anyway. Yes... counting ballots and getting results to the entire nation would have taken longer than it does to count ballot results in our 21st century, technological age where most of the counting is done by computer.
Bad comparison.
Posted on May 15, 2007 8:25 PM
Matt, there'd have to be a lot more than one campaign worker voting in two jurisdictions to take down a congressman. Why are you so interested in McHenry's demise, other than that he's a Republican? After all, he was duly elected by the voters of his district.
Posted on May 16, 2007 1:41 PM