News-Record.com

Your conclusion is right on. I'm still curious though, were you able to find out when the matter was referred to the DA?

Darn! Forgot to ask that.

Although I partially agree, your own editorial indicates why answers won't lay the matter to rest. Even though it wasn't illegal, you said it would have been, I think, "unconscionable"?

If some records were destroyed, they will be said to have contained information of inestimable value. There will pressure to "investigate" backed by a N&R editorial. How could this have happened? What were they trying to hide?

If no records were destroyed, then the PD spends time trying to prove a negative.

Either way, the story continues . . .

We used the word obstructionist.

I should have been more clear: If leaders talk with the officer named, and other officers would likely would have known about this if it happened, without threats of going to the DA or whatever, they will get honest answers. If those answers are that no files of this kind were destroyed, that will put the matter to rest.

If there were files, honest answers will explain what happened and why.

Geez, that whole incident was forever ago. I bet those reverends wouldn't even take a $20 bill that was as old as that shooting. Of course, I can still see that picture of the Reverend Nelson Johnson (when he was with the CWP) walking around with a pistol after the shooting. He managed to turn up just afterwards, ready to do battle with the Klan. It sure was lucky for the Klan that Johnson couldn't find himself when the fight was on.

Now, we see that same shooting scene at the night clubs on E market just about every weekend. I wonder if the Reverends will be able to find their indignant voices about that.

Shucks, Hank... you're right. Time really should just make us forget about the whole darned thing, so that when it happens again, we can be freshly astonished.

And it sure is funny to think about someone arming themselves against a terrorist organization... Johnson sure was kidding himself, wasn't he? That big ol' Klan woulda kicked his butt. Hyuk! Hyuk!

And (third time's a charm...) you're right again - seems like pastors NEVER get upset about violence in their communities. I bet every time you go to one of the East Market churches, Hank, you probably wonder to yourself "Why don't they ever mention black-on-black crime?"

I was wondering how long it would take before someone took the "who cares" stance. Hank, you represent 19th century North Carolina proudly.

The fact that these three small ridiculous groups chose our city about 29 years ago to raise their rabble, disturb the peace, and besmirch the reputation of the much much larger populace is bad enough. Let alone an attempt to perpetuate the memory of this sorry event by a vested person and a couple of cronies. This is not news and does not deserve much attention, just a sentence or two in a history book. Anyone truly interested in reconciliation would forgive and try to forget or at least let the other uninvolved people forget.

Gee Cliff, is that a strawman in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?

I was just thinking that the GPD could spend a little more time on shootings in this century rather than focusing on shootings in 1979. It seems to me that the Communists and the Klan came to town to shoot each other and then they both left. Neither group is doing much business these days. I don't see why people should keep digging up that dead horse and beating it every few years.

It's over and done, just like the silk shirts and disco music from 1979. It's time we moved on with our lives and quit waving that bloody shirt.

Cliff: What are you talking about? "When it happens again"? What, when communist agitators bait a racist organization into a shootout at a public housing project? Don't hold your breath. Both sides share blame in that.

Hank's point about the publicly voiced anger over black-on-black violence (far, far, far more common) relative to white-on-black violence is valid. How many times has the Pulpit Forum raised a stink over the former? That's a 21st century problem, not a 19th -- particularly with the influx of extremely violent gangs into our city (and elsewhere).

It's way past time we all moved on from this. The amount of hand-wringing over 30-year-old murders between two terrorist organizations amazes me. That they happened to have their disgusting shootout in Greensboro merely points to our bad luck, nothing more. Sadly, it's been used to demonize this city and its residents beyond all proportion. So yes, it's time to start living in a new century and face current problems, such as the utter lack of transparency in our city government and a whole host of national and international problems that will increasingly affect us all. If the Pulpit forum wants to be useful, it should focus its attention on building coalitions between community groups so we can all look ahead and help build a better city. We will not do that by dwelling obsessively on a past event that will never be resolved to anyone's satisfaction. Racists are evil. Communists are evil. It happened. It was bad. But we have to move on.

Geez, that whole incident was forever ago. I bet those reverends wouldn't even take a $20 bill that was as old as that shooting. Of course, I can still see that picture of the Reverend Nelson Johnson (when he was with the CWP) walking around with a pistol after the shooting. He managed to turn up just afterwards, ready to do battle with the Klan. It sure was lucky for the Klan that Johnson couldn't find himself when the fight was on.

The version I heard was that Johnson tripped and accidently fell "under" a car while the action was going on!

if the files were last used in the civil trial which ended in june 1985, then the clock starts then. the clock starts when the files where last used in an open case. therefore, the files should not have been destroyed before june of '05. if you heard the city spokesperson a couple of days ago, she said that the request for the files was made in january or february of '04. that's only 19 years by my calculations. so getting rid of them before 20 years is up is a crime!

I'm guessing the DA knows what the law says. But if you were there and have specific information, call him.

A start would be to confirm that such a unique set of records, which no one knew about before, really existed.

Let me see if I have this straight in my mind: The Three Amigos (Brown, Johnson and the other guy) by way of a source which they won't reveal have learned that a certain police officer who does not even work in the Special Intelligence dept. anymore dumped 50 cases of files about the Klan/CWP shooting in the dumpster. Their accusations are totally unsubstantiated and even if it were true the DA says it would not be a crime because files can be disposed of after 20 years.

What the hell are we even talking about?

We have a city that might run out of water in 5 months if we don't get more rain. We have a rampant gang violence problem in our schools. We have a police department that is so undermanned that response time occurs in hours, not minutes. Crime is rising, there are unsolved homicides, houses are being broken into, burglaries are ocurring in broad daylight.

Meanwhile we have a mayor and at least 3-4 City Councilmembers who are beholden to the three idiots who are starting this whole commotion.

It would be funny if it weren't so pathetic.

first question, why hasn't anyone questioned officer mcminn yet? i'm thinking that would clear up a lot. next question, do you really think that da is going to try to prosecute the gpd and expect to re-elected in the city of greensboro?

to john:

i guess the da didn't take into account that the files were in use in 1985 for the civil trial which the city lost. therefore, the files weren't 20 years old in 2004.

Supposedly, the point of these mystery files is that they weren't in use in 1985 or any other time. They're secret files, never before seen outside the secret police office. There's been no record of them. And if their contents were known they would indict GPD unambiguously for conspiracy in the murders of five CWP members in 1979.

Of course you would have to believe that the conspirators kept their secret files in the GPD offices instead of stashing them at the bottom of a mine shaft in West Virginia and that, 25 years later, the successors to the conspirators clumsily decided to toss them all into a Dumpster, with the knowledge of several witnesses, one of whom, after keeping quiet for several years, finally decided to approach Nelson Johnson with this gripping tale.

So, to recap, if these files weren't used in connection with any court case, they are not tied in to a 20-year time frame.

Even more to the point, if they didn't exist at all, it wasn't illegal to throw them away.

No wonder Greensboro has racial tensions. Thirty years after the fact, and these guys want to make a stink over something that wasn't even a crime! Truth and reconcilliation my big old rear end! It's more like, "Let's keep this big old pile stirred and stinking so we can have a following". This is the very reason a large part of the Black community can't move on, their so called "leaders" won't let them!

Willie, good analysis.
Nelson Johnson and the T&R remind me of Yassir Arafat and the Israelis. Arafat was offered everything he asked for, and yet wouldn't give up the fight. Why? Because without the fight Arafat had nothing to do, no power, no agenda, and therefore no need to be a "leader" and rally his people. The struggle empowered Arafat and kept him in the news; same with Nelson Johnson and the Klan/CWP debacle.
And since it's about "racial tension" in GSO then the N&R is a willing protagonist...go figure.

first question. if these were files of the special intelligence unit which is part of the gpd, why wouldn't they turn these files over to the city's district atty who was prosecuting the kkk in a capital murder case? why wouldn't the police dept help the city's d.a. get a conviction in the case unless that's not what you were looking for in the first place? i'm pretty sure not turning over files that could help the district atty secure a conviction in a capital murder case is breaking some kind of law.

there's evidence that these files existed. former officer det. herb belvin of the special investigations stated that they kept "pretty active" on nelson johnson and sandi smith up until about '76. it started in '69 after the incident at dudley high school in which nelson was arrested, jailed and later pardoned. these files were referred to as "civil intelligence" files because they were collected without a pending criminal charge, which is illegal. police atty cawn said he was never asked about the legality of the surveillance. lt. sylvester daughtry said that johnson would not have been a legal target for surveillance. belvin goes on to say that these files were destroyed with the passage of the freedom of information act because that would have made them available for public scrunity. who knows? maybe they didn't destroy all of them, hence, secret files.

the matter with the files isn't the age of the files, it's that the files existed in the first place. these files consisted of illegally gathered intelligence on private citizens who were not in the crosshairs of a pending investigation. this is why you wouldn't want these files to see the light of day.

to jaycee:

have a look at this map and tell me this. if you were palestinian, would you not still be fighting today?

http://www.funhostr.com/p/nab7FZkc/This_explains_a_lot

"i was there"....do you often see black helicopters hovering above your neighborhood?
Are you personal friends with Connie Mack, Jr.?
Dude, you've got a screw loose somewhere.

We've tiptoed around the elephant in the room - for those of you who weren't alive when this happened, there was some interesting timing around the arrival of the Klan, the departure of the Klan, and the arrival of the police. I guess I have to say it outright: if the GPD was neither complicit nor collusive in this matter, then not only would they not want to throw the documents away, they'd want to hang them from the highest flagpole to proudly trumpet their innocence and lay all of the rumors and rumblings to rest.

It's not a stretch to believe that kind of thing happening 30 years ago... but I'd be a lot more comfortable believing that it doesn't happen anymore if organizations would be more open with records.

If you have a compelling argument for GPD not sharing every shred of information with us that they possibly could, I'd love to hear it. Why would they not just show us all of this exonerating evidence and be done with it?

I'm really not trying to be coy... if there's a good reason, I'm very open-minded. Talk to me... and don't just say 'Yeah, the cops always show up after the fact... so what?' If it's that simple, why wouldn't the GPD share the records just to answer the accusations?

jaycee, was that the best that you could muster? have you ever noticed when people have no argument left they try to divert you from the issues. you definitely could get a job with the bush administration.

good argument cliff! you would think that if the gpd had no involvement, they would be showing all the evidence. however, that's not the case. i've never seen innocent people not shouting their innocence. has anyone heard from officer mcminn yet? it would seem that they would want to put him in front of the camera if there's nothing to hide about this story.

Old Black Man Sewing Circle . . . Nitwits Are Always Causing Problems.

Julius Fullmore . . . come on already. You have the whole of 10 people in Greensboro in an uproar over trash dumping and you throw "this" . . . "this" secret informanant at us . . .

Who can honestly take you Rev's with any minimal amount of credibility . . .

i'm just wondering how many people on this blog has ever taken the time to read the actual court papers & sworn depositions from the officers in this case? if everyone had done that, i'm thinking that it might change the whole dynamic of this discussion.