News-Record.com

I'm no Bev Perdue fan, but she is absolutely correct on this issue.

I try to keep an open mind, but quite frankly, I just don't get the opposing side of this issue. Why should illegal aliens be afforded the same (or, if Erskine Bowles had his way a few months back, better) benefits than legal U.S. citizens?

Suppose you come home from work to find that someone has broken into your home, plopped down on your couch and declared, "Hey, I live here now." None of us would find that acceptable. So why shouldn't we afford that same respect to our borders?

Doug, this may sound awfully cynical, but I wonder about what will occur.

My recollection is that this is now a matter that will
be studied. If Perdue is elected, and the study
recommends illegals should be admitted to the community college system, what happens then?

She will have made her courageous stand against catering to illegals in the community college system, will have gotten herself elected, and then is free to follow the recommendations in the study.

That very well could be, Joe. But if so, I think the voters will feel betrayed -- and her opponent in 2012 would have a very powerful piece of ammunition to use against her.

(I'm voting for McCrory anyway. But I do applaud Perdue for thinking through this issue and making the right choice.)

Thanks, js.

Joe, that certainly is possible. I think she would pay a political price for an about-face like that, although maybe not until 2012.

Mr. Clark, have I lost my mind, I thought I read in your paper, just a few weeks ago, that your editorial board was all for letting illegals in college with in state tuition (FREE). Could the election, have a effect on how you and Ms. Perdue think, seems I recall her in 2004 fighting to get illegals into, our colleges. In real life I am sure I still have the article out of the Danville Register& Bee.

Doug:

There are many people attending college in North Carolina who are not entitled to work here. Student visas typically prohibit students from working more than a token amount. Under your logic, these students should go as well.

To carry your argument further, should we require all community college students to commit to working in North Carolina?

Why have student visas if you're going to open the doors to foreign nationals without them?

And I don't think a U.S. citizen from another state is the same as an illegal immigrant.

Doug J, we've never been for free college education for illegal immigrants. In fact, I don't know of any newspaper in favor of that.

Doug:

Right, why have any immigration laws at all if some people are going to disobey them?

People's eligibility to attend college in this state is not tied to their work status nor should it be. As I pointed out, some eligible students are flat-out ineligible for employment but we admit and teach them anyway.

So to answer your initial question. No, I would not be willing to hire an illegal immigrant.

And to answer the follow-up. No one is under any obligation to provide employment for illegal immigrants, regardless of how much education they have. We don't guarantee employment for our own citizens. Why would we guarantee it for illegals?

But neither of these things bears on our community college admissions policy.

Perdue has addressed this issue expediently, not logically.

Instead, she (and you) have adopted the myopic, punitive, scorched-earth position that the state and all of its institutions should make it as uncomfortable as possible to be an illegal alien, regardless of that person's circumstances and regardless of the potential costs or benefits to us.

No, we don't guarantee employment for our own citizens. But we don't prohibit it, either.

We do provide legal avenues for citizens of other countries to reside, study, work and eventually gain citizenship in our country. There are rules and procedures they must follow to do those things. Some, however, break the rules and bypass these procedures -- apparently with the full support and encouragement of some Americans and even some of our institutions such as our state university system.

It's amazing that one can be accused of being myopic, punitive and pursuing scorched-earth policies for believing that slipping across our border without legal authorization does not entitle a person to the rights and privileges normally accorded to citizens. Perhaps some even think that maintaining a border and the pretense of nationhood has become myopic.

STRAW MAN ALERT...STRAW MAN ALERT

"apparently with the full support and encouragement of some Americans and even some of our institutions such as our state university system."

"perhaps some even think that maintaining a border and the pretense of nationhood has become myopic."

Doug, really. It's just one whopper after another for you this afternoon.

The reality is that many illegal immigrants are here despite some admittedly inconsistent efforts to shoo them away. Shutting the doors to our community colleges will not convince many (any?) to leave. At the same time, the policy will make our community worse by depriving it of the economic and non-economic benefits of higher education (a fundamental reason why there are public colleges in the first place is that an education benefits people beyond the student his or herself). The policy will cost community colleges in terms of greater enforcement effort and loss of tuition dollars (recall that these students were not eligible for in-state tuition). It will increase the hassles for all students, who now must produce evidence of citizenship or legal status in addition to other forms of identification. The policy will also hurt unfortunate young adults who were brought to this country as children and in some cases as infants and who are caught in the middle of the immigration issue.

You've outlined a policy that has many costs yet virtually no benefits, beyond contributing to an atmosphere of intolerance.

As you clearly feel strongly about the illegal immigration issue, you should start your indirect enforcement campaign a little closer to home. In particular, you should restrict subscriptions to the News-Record to households that can properly verify their citizenship or residency status. You'll surely agree that the myriad benefits of newspaper readership--especially the availability of want ads and the helpful work advice in Dilbert--should not be extended to those who flaunt our laws by entering the country illegally. Once you've demonstrated the effectiveness of your own newpaper-based version of a "know-nothing" policy maybe we can discuss the merits of your college proposals.

Doug:

BTW, I don't want to be inflexible here. A narrower policy of just excising the want-ads and Dilbert cartoons from the papers going to "undocumented" subscribers would be an acceptable demonstration of your sincerity regarding our immigration problems.

Good comparison, Dave: a private business to a public institution. Of course we shouldn't sell newspapers to illegal immigrants because it's, what, they're not legally entitled to read?

Actually, North Carolina's community college system is accountable to the people of North Carolina, and in that context the board made a responsible decision.

You can cry Straw Man, but I've drawn what you seem to reveal as your views on this issue to a logical conclusion. But tell me, do you or do you not believe that, once across the border, illegal immigrants should be regarded as holding rights and privileges equal to those of citizens? It seems to me you do.

I contend that the denial of an income tax deduction for wages paid by employers to illegal immigrants will begin to clear up the problem of illegal immigration. We have mechanisms in place to police such payments. No employer is willing to incur an expense that is not tax deductible as business expense on his or her federal and state income tax return.

Did your paper, not just run a editorial, in favor of instate tuition for illegals? I am the one that added free. No income equals no payments. Just read in the N@O doctors are complaining we are not spending enough on illegals health care. I bet some of these doctors are the same ones that will not accept medicare. Dave Ribar, can you tell me one benefit the average taxpayer get because we have a open door policy. Lets see now, business people get cheap labor, illegals get free health care, they go to the hospital, have a baby, become citizens and get all the goodies. Get hit by one driving drunk ( far to often) you will find they seldom have car insurance. What do the tax payers get. The BILL.

Doug:

Hmm, so the "logical" conclusion to the opposition of a particular ineffective and self-defeating immigration policy is that I must oppose all immigration enforcement. Why yes, that is a straw man. You don't want to discuss the merits of your position. Instead, you argue against extreme positions that I and others didn't take.

"What, they're not legally entitled to read?" Well, they're breaking the law by being here, right. Accordingly, they are not entitled to read or do anything else while they are here (except skedaddle).

Moreover, I didn't say that illegals couldn't buy your paper from another source (that would drag a third party into this mess). The policy is simply that you should not facilitate illegals' job searches through the convenience of home subscriptions.

The private business claim is a dodge. A business is entitled to operate as it wishes within the confines of the law. If this is such an important issue, put your money where your mouth is and start checking the bonifides of your subscribers. Why wait for a public response to a problem that you think is so important? Right now, one of those illegal immigrants may be reading the want ads and plotting how to take some citizen's job.

To paraphrase ( http://blog.news-record.com/staff/offtherecord/archives/2008/08/whos_really_lib.shtml ): Telling other people how to behave isn't an act of virtue. That requires using one's personal resources.

Um, wasn't that part of the message of the other post, that some people should "walk the walk" before espousing particular policies? Well then, how about it? Where is your personal responsibility in this vital matter?

Dave, I understand this is a difficult, nuanced issue. I've laid out my position on the community college question. It's infinitely more logical than yours which apparently is to allow them to pursue education at institutions whose primary purpose is job training even though they're not allowed to have jobs. Introducing unrelated issues, such as whether the N&R should refuse to sell papers to illegal immigrants, is just a dodge.

So by Mr. Ribar's logic, if a person breaks into your home, they are just as entitled to live there as you are.

The key point that illegal immigration apologists miss is "illegal." As in, it's against the law for these people to be in our country. That's why they aren't entitled (or at least shouldn't be entitled) to the same government services as legal U.S. residents.

The sanctity of national borders has been around as long as human civilization. Every nation has the right to control its own borders. Otherwise, as Doug says, we might as well not even have nations.

I understand this is a difficult, nuanced issue.

*************

Actually, I think it's pretty simple and straightforward.

If someone takes up residence in your home uninvited, he might do some yard work and wash the dishes. So you benefit.

Seriously, the nuance and difficulty comes in implementing consistent, practical enforcement policies.

Then there are complexities like the fact that U.S.-born children of illegals are U.S. citizens with full rights of citizenship.

Doug:

You still haven't explained why the News & Record should continue to facilitate employment of illegals. You're only response has been that private businesses can be held to different standards (which we knew).

The sum of your argument with respect to the college issue is the non sequitur that admission should be conflated with work. "As long as illegal immigrants are not entitled to work in North Carolina, they should not be granted space in our community colleges ... whose primary mission is to train workers." As I pointed out, students can be admitted even if they have no right to work in this state or country. Moreover, subsequent work activity is not a stated or even implicit requirement for admission.

While community colleges undoubtedly help work-readiness (the motto of the NC system is "Preparing North Carolina's World-Class Workforce"), they also have many other benefits ( http://www.nccommunitycolleges.edu/External_Affairs/ASUAlliance/docs/ncagglr.pdf ).

Even the argument that education should be withheld from criminals, doesn't withstand scrutiny, as North Carolina already offers community college classes to inmates ( http://www.ncccs.cc.nc.us/News_Releases/Prison_Luncheon.htm ).

JS:

No, I wouldn't support breaking and entering and then taking possesion of a home. Your analogy would only be appropriate if qualified, legal residents were being excluded or turned away from attending community college--they aren't.

And no, I haven't missed the "illegal" part. The argument is where our enforcement efforts would be the most effective (e.g., with employers rather than with colleges). There is also the practical reality that even with tough enforcement, some illegals will remain and others (children brought here) occupy a gray area.

Dave, it's simply not worth any effort to address your silly notion that the N&R facilitates the employment of illegals by publishing job ads and allowing illegals to purchase the paper.

And I disagree that it's a non-sequitur to link workforce training through community colleges to legal entitlement to work. That's a direct and appropriate connection. Let's use community college space for people who can be hired for jobs in our community. It doesn't bother me if exception are granted for foreigners who have followed legal channels to obtain appropriate visas.

Doug:

Let's leave community colleges out of the immigration battles (they are no more responsible for illegals being or staying here than the N&R's want ads and will be no more effective in stopping illegals). Let's also use community college space for people who might benefit our community through jobs or other means.