"The civil majority" : Thinking Out Loud : Blogs : News-Record.com : Greensboro, North Carolina

Jerry Bledsoe said:

Allen,

Since you�ve made clear that you are perfectly willing, if not eager, to ban more people from the Town Square, it would be helpful if you would explain specifically what people have to do to keep from being banned.

Steve was banned for �gratuitous obscenities, cuss words and crass references to anatomical parts.�

How do you define obscenities and what makes them gratuitous? Which words are considered to be cuss words and thus unacceptable? Give us a list that we can carry in our wallets.

Which anatomical parts are not to be mentioned, and how are crass references defined?

Clearly, though, ridding the comments of the things for which Steve was banned will not solve all the problems.

Shouldn�t personal attacks be eliminated as well? That seems inevitable. How do you determine what is a personal attack and what isn�t?

Ed Cone considers it a personal attack to point out inconsistencies in his positions (and I�m not being anatomical). Mark Binker says it�s a snide personal attack to note that a post on The Editor�s Log was removed without comment. Can Skip Alston�s or Billy Yow�s names even be mentioned any more?.

Provide some boundaries.

Also when you ban people from the Town Square will they just disappear without notice the way people do in places where secret police operate? Is there any chance the N&R might consider putting their names on a wall in front of the building so that people might have a place to put flowers and mourn those considered unworthy of the Town Square?

Posted on July 14, 2005 11:08 PM

JayCee said:

The majority of the comments/blog entries come from a group of about a dozen die-hard liberals, who have mostly taken over the blogs on here. Any dissenting opinion is roundly thrashed by this cabal.
I find it hardly worth reading anymore, except to chuckle at the lengths to which this group will go to bash anyone who disagrees.
I would never again send a letter to the editor for publication and expose myself to the thumping I'd surely receive.
I do post occasionally to stir the pot, however.

Posted on July 15, 2005 12:25 AM

Dough said:

Jerry,

I see the link to the Terms of Service at the top of the LTE homepage is working. I only skimmed it as I scrolled down the page, but it seems to describe what you're asking for, at least to some degree.

I suggest you read it and then let Allen know how it could be more specific or could comform more to what you'd like to see.

Also, I realize you're "wall" idea may be a little tongue-in-cheek, but personally, I'd like to see an acknowledgment by the blog editors when someone is blocked. I hate it when someone just disappears without a trace.

Posted on July 15, 2005 8:42 AM

mrproduce said:

JayCee, There are a few who have attempted to take over the blogs, especially the LTE section, but they have failed for the most part. After being away for a week or so I returned to find a good number of new contributors who were making points in a very civil manner. Yes, some of them are liberals and yes some of the new as well as the old have some rather strong views concerning politics. However, the same can be said for those on the other side of the arena as well. There are many who have been around for some time now and have locked horns more than once but during this time we have learned to listen to the opinions of both sides and have grown to respect the others opinions , which should be a major reason for these blogs. Unfortunately there are two or three now who seem to hang on and make no worthy contribution to any discussion but only can trash what another has said or else make childish remarks or silly comments. I have noted of late that these few for the most part are being ignored except to occassionaly turn some of the more outlandish remarks back to them in hopes that they will read and comprhend what they have said. It will probably not work but eventually the continual ignoring of them will dry them up and they , like the fall leaves will blow away.
Hopefully all of us will continue to learn from each other and have fun doing it, even if we do not alway agree with each other. There are a lot of us who wish to keep these blogs going and enjoying the diversity of opinions expressed.
So come on in occassionaly JayCee and stir the pot to add some civil spice to it.

Posted on July 15, 2005 9:41 AM

Sue said:

Jerry, I'm going to ignore your sarcasm toward Allen and Ed but refer to this only:
"Shouldn�t personal attacks be eliminated as well? That seems inevitable. How do you determine what is a personal attack and what isn�t?"

Go here. Are you OK with that or should we write it on your wallet-card?

Then let's talk about civil discourse and not about your problems with Allen or Ed.

Posted on July 15, 2005 10:13 AM

The Logic Fairy said:

"except to occassionaly turn some of the more outlandish remarks back to them in hopes that they will read and comprhend what they have said."

Yes! Bless you, my logical child!

Love,

Posted on July 15, 2005 11:25 AM

Allen Johnson said:

Jerry, I've posted this reference in two threads on this subject:
For an example of what "gratuitous" means, please see the remarks by "number 2" in the "Troll trash" comments. I will leave them there a few minutes before removing them.

Posted on July 15, 2005 11:55 AM

Ed Cone said:

Jerry,

Sensitive soul that I am, I thought you were getting personal not by pointing to an alleged inconsistency in my argument, but because you implied my alleged inconsistency was due to craven self-interest. Or at least that's what I gleaned when you said: "So, Ed, once the N&R speaks you suddenly aren't a free speech guy after all. You were free speech just a day or two ago. I guess you know where your bread is buttered."

I've never said that personal digs are grounds for banning someone.

Allen says the guy was banned for repeated use of foul language. As noted, I'm more relaxed about language at my blog than the N&R is at its blogs.

But the paper does have limits on the language allowed in its forums. Those limits seem to be pretty straightforward and common across a lot of publications, broadcast TV, radio, etc, to the point that George Carlin was able to create a memorable comic routine on the subject as far back as 1973.

Are you saying the paper should have no such limits for its online forums?

Posted on July 15, 2005 1:04 PM

Yvonne said:

I have read all the comments re the stated reasons for banning Steve from posting here and I have one word, manure. Steve was singled out by one of Allen's colleagues to get the axe and Allen sacrificed a member of the general public in favor of her.

If it was a simple matter of obscenities and lewd remarks about body parts many more people would have received the boot. But it was the one individual Sue had a personal vendetta against that was the only one to be banned. This is a clear violation of Steve's First Amendment rights.

Allen, Sue or anyone else can dress it up and call it something PC but it is blatant discrimination. 99% of us recognize it for what it is so I don't know who they think they are trying to convince otherwise.

I have lost faith in the fairness and truthfulness of some of the staff of the N&R. I do not flatter myself in thinking this means beans to those staff members but it means a lot to me to say it.

IMHO Allen sold his soul to the devil when he made the decision to ban anyone, especially since it was only one.

Posted on July 18, 2005 1:00 AM

Ed Cone said:

Yvonne,

How are Allen and Sue colleagues? She doesn't work at or for the paper. She is, like Steve, a member of the "general public."

Also, whatever the merits of banning Steve, the First Amendment has do to with governmental restraint on speech. The N&R can publish (and not publish) who and what it pleases without violating the Free Speech clause.

Me, I'm not big on banning people. But I respect Allen's integrity, and acknowledge his right and responsibility to maintain the site according to consistent standards. You say his standards are not consistent, but provide no evidence for that statement.

Posted on July 18, 2005 8:42 AM

mrproduce said:

Ed, We often hear( or some of us do) from the scriptures, to abstain from all appearances of evil. Perhaps this could be applied in the Steve case.
When one person, Sue, calling for Steves head on numerous occasions in posted letters to Allen (even if she did not in all letters call Steve by name) and then Allen banishes Steve from N&R blogdom, regardless of the reasons given, it would appear that he caved in to Sue. It may certainly not be the case but it certainly would "give the appearance of".
Under the light of such evidence, Yvonne's and others conclusions can not be easily dismissed.

Frankly I stand with you in that it is not a question of guaranteed freedom of speech since the N&R is a privately owned business and therefore does not fall under such law.

I can stand with you in that Allen , as editorial page editor, has the right to ban a person if in his opinion they are violating the Terms of Service as outlined on each blog and the LTE section.

I can agree also that it is/was unfortunate that any person can/was banned.

I cannot concur that there are consistent restraints on speech as is evidenced by several post where anatomical terms have been used in describing those posting or their opinions.

I do believe that given the opportunity by those who contribute to bring a wall of silence and a measure of civil correction to and around those who have nothing to contribute but insults and ignorance, however worded, will bring about a more tolerable tone by all.

Posted on July 18, 2005 1:01 PM

Another Bigmouth said:

Ed,

Yvonne doesn't need to provide evidence for her statement that there is no consistency. It's already there. Go to the archives. Look at the comments. Swim around the LTE pool for a while. Yes, I know it isn't the deep end of the pool, but people still do post there.

If Allen was consistent, Steve would have been gone along time ago with a bunch of other people right behind him.

I posted every obscenity that George Carlin described and added another hundred to it. Yet I'm still posting here.

Yvonne made this statement: 99% of us recognize it for what it is so I don't know who they think they are trying to convince otherwise.

The answer to that question: themselves.

Posted on July 18, 2005 1:11 PM

Allen Johnson said:

Mrproduce:
We are not able to monitor every comment round the clock. But as incidents of objectionable comments are reported, we will act on them.
The problem, as I see it, is not someone who drops in, writes something obscene, then disappears. The problem arises when someone repeatedly does so, over days or even weeks.

Posted on July 18, 2005 1:12 PM

Allen Johnson said:

Another Bigmouth is right. We didn't ban anyone back then because we have resisted this "nuclear option" as a solution because we'dhoped it would subside. (We did delete the comment.)
We only resorted to it recently because we felt we had to do SOMETHING.
We are working on longer-term solutions. Please bear with us.

Posted on July 18, 2005 1:57 PM

mrproduce said:

I understand well Allen. I was simply pointing out to Ed how things can appear and taking exception to his comment. I am sure many "read into the results" the same thing, inconsistecy.

I realize it has to be a horrendous problem to constantly and consistently monitor what is posted.

I feel certain that 98% of those posting here would not be bothered by some type of system to restrain those who wish only to be disruptive.

Perhaps my suggestion, now that the deed has been done, will be considered by those posting, that is putting the "freeze" on them. Like children whose tanturms are ignored, these "children" will soon either get the message and attempt to contribute or go where comments they choose to make are accepted.

Those of us who have been around for sometime and frequently post our opinions appreciate that you have seen the value in allowing the postings to continue. I for one certainly hope that it will continue for a long time.

Posted on July 18, 2005 2:16 PM

Another Bigmouth said:

Allen said:

"Another Bigmouth is right."

I am printing this out and framing it on the wall.

Seriously, Allen said something that I think we all need to realize. This is a learning experience.

Allen made a judgement call. I don't agree with it, but it is his call to make (and his job to make it.)

Allen has also said repeatedly that it is one heck of a job to monitor this thing. I can understand that. As someone interested in applying a consistent approach to this blog, I will attempt to aid Allen and others by publishing in a weekly post all of the negative, mean-spirited and offensive things stated during the week.

That will save Allen some work and also bring attention to problem people who for whom a solution may need to be devised.

Posted on July 18, 2005 4:51 PM

truth said:

And if he doesn't do it, I will. ;)

Posted on July 18, 2005 4:54 PM

Allen Johnson said:

That's fine by me, guys. Part of the solution to this problem is community policing, so to speak. Thanks for any help. In the meantime, we're studying other measures. John Robinson and I will keep you apprised.

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