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Allen,

OK, if you feel that neighorhood schools are bad because they don't produce sufficient diversity, will you lead the way through your leadership position to influence the school board to implement a lottery program to diversify Dudley? Afterall, Dudley is a neighborhood school and is not diverse. As a matter of fact, it is one of least diverse schools in the county, much more so than Southwest, the target of the lottery plan.

If you really believe neighborhood schools are bad, then I challenge you to lead the charge by demanding that Dudley be diversifed through a lottery program with some other Greensboro schools asap. Greensboro having done this successfully, you wil have shown the way to High Point how it can be done.

Until you and others are willing to do this in Greensboro, it seems hypocritical to criticize people in High Point for wanting what people in Greensboro have and enjoy. Remember, this is one school system, not three. There are no "High Point Schools" any longer and haven't been for many years. If it is the desire to treat those schools in a different manner, then let's disband the Guilford Coiunty school system, and have school systems accountable to the communities that they serve.

Sure thing with that diversity dream Player.

Why doesn't the School Board start with the school that is in the most need of a change in diversity - Dudley; and I don't mean the beauty college.

Or does Dudley get an exemption when it comes to diversity?

Allen Johnson Myths.

#1 SW is a lilly white bastion of privilege
(please see front page of N&R today. Look at the students exiting the building)Quaint,huh?

#2 (this is also one of Doug Clark's myths)The "Educational Stockholm Syndrome" (where hostages begin to identify with their abductors)
People's children can be forcefully abducted from the school of their parent's choice, taken to a new school and the parents will automatically become generous, loving, time-giving, school supporting, troubled-kid-rescuing PTA- going parents at the new school. Absolute hogwash and totally contrary to human nature. (not to say it won't happen in a few cases but not enough to affect anything to any degree)

Myth #3
People will not move or go to private school if they are re-zoned to a new school. In reality-all that will happen is you will play a constant game of musical neighborhoods, destroying quality of life, benefiting only realtors.

Myth #4 As proclaimed by a Central High parent in today's paper '"now the gangs may get bad". Anybody that thinks they can abduct children from someplace else, force-bus them to your school and have these children and their parents protect you from gangs is the most totally outrageous, misguided thing I can imagine, scary and sad. What do you think we are? Police? Social workers? Total insanity!

Myth #5
white people have endless time and resources available to not only worry about their own children and give time to a school close to home, but could easily adapt to the extra time and expense of going to a distant school in order to worry over someone else's kids too.

Allen and Doug. Let's get real.

John,

How do you think that the picture of Southwest students today would compare to a similar picture of students existing from Dudley? Oh, I forgot, that is Greensboro, not High Point. Doug says that High Point is different than Greensboro. I'm not sure how, but that is what he said. As Allen said, neighborhood schools aare bad, so let's begin in 2006 in dismatling them across the county, and let's start with Dudley.

Allen,

I'll ask again. Is your neighborhood assigned to the closest high school, or second,third, fourth, etc. All I want for my kids is the same situation as your neighborhood. I have never expected special treatment for my kids. All I expect is EQUAL treatment to School Board member neighborhoods and News and Record Editor neighborhoods.

Anxiously awaiting your reponse.

I agree with the comments about Dudley. It's a definite problem, with a more racially unbalanced student body (99 percent black) than when I attended there in the 1970s. There are others: Northwest High is 86 percent white. Washington Elementary School is 100 percent black. And so on.
We have never suggested that High Point alone should foster diversity in its enrollments. It's an issue for the entire school system.
What makes it harder is urban sprawl and segregated housing.

As for me personally, I don't have any kids in the schools. But I still believe I have a stake in the schools.
And you're right, the school board ought to be fair and consistent.

Allen,

I appreciate your candor in agreeing that diversity problems exist at several non-High Point schools, and it is a valid concern that the board needs to address. Now, as I asked before, what are you and the newspaper leadership going to do about it? Your new staff opinion that appeared decries the board's unwillingness to stick with the lottery, but I don't see any ideas coming out of this newwspaper as to how the problem could be solved, countywide on a fair and equitable basis for all.

And, if people had been listening carefully, Alan Duncan said that the lottery was no longer viable because they could not legally use FRL statistics. Without the use of that data, the only option was a true random lottery, and that would not have produced the results that they had wanted. It wouldn't have assurred diversy, since it would be truly random. The board had few options left but to can the lottery as it existed.

So, when will you and the newspaper leadership get behind a movement to treat all schools in the county on an equal and fair basis? I see your concern that equal and fair it doesn't exist, but I don't see any desire to actually do anything, other than to criticize. We have enough problem spotters, we need more problem solvers.

Stormy:
I agree. The newspaper intends to pursue this issue in 2006 and to foster some earnest, constructive discussions about it. You'll be reading more about that soon.

I honestly cannot think of a better, more fair system than offering parents unrestricted choice to apply to the school(s) of their choice, and making the placement competitive. Coercion is bound to create ill-will, especially with respect to the emotional subject of parents wanting what they perceive to be the best education (and educational environment) for their kids.

Competitive based on what criteria, Joe?

Allen,

Fair enough, we'll all be eagerly waiting to see what develops in 2006. Let's be sure that when ths happens, though, that whatever techniques or methods that are used, they are applied evenly and consistently across the county and population, as that is the only way that it can be workable.

We must have one system within one school district. That is the source of the great complaint of Southwest parents. A system was in place just for schools that happened to be in High Point. I understand that it was done that way because the HP board members wanted it, but that did not justify it. It's one school district, not three anymore, and they should not have been allowed to unilaterally do something of that nature, which did not seem to actually have anything to do with furthering education. but rather advancing other causes.

I suggest that if a system is implemented to ensure diversity throughout the district that is consistently, evenly, and fairly done, it will be well-received, without all of the rancor that accompanied this last chaotic mess.

Good points, Stormy, and I agree with them all.

Allen, you ask a good question regarding the criteria for assessing applicants. It would need to be done objectively and consistently. Just brainstorming-- perhaps for grade school, based on screenings and administered tests; for middle school and high school, based on grades and standardized test scores.

Perhaps there would need to be a way to assess student and parental motivation. Of course, this entire question of gauging competitiveness would need to be worked out by the school board; and other ideas for assessing prospective students may work better.

I like the idea, however, that no student is "entitled" to a spot in any given school, and that everyone needs to apply. Realistically, many will not want to travel beyond their closest school geographically; but choice would automatically introduce concepts of equity, access to other schools, and diversity. Schools and students would not be locked into preexisting housing patterns.

The biggest practical barrier, I think, would be transportation-- how to provide it for everyone, to every school.

Finally, to close out my participation on this strand, here's a post from a retired school teacher relating her experience that appeared in an LTE today. This is prime example of what the choice plan was like in the schools in High Point. Enjoy.

Comments

Bigger is not always better. When I worked for the old Guilford County School system, it was not unusual to look at the door and the superintendent would be standing there, checking things out, asking questions of the teachers such as "How are things going" "Is there anything I can do to help" Wayne Trogden was the best at keeping in touch and listening. Doug McGann was also good at that.

I never saw Weast or Grier unless it was a planned visit with some agenda. When Grier came to "discuss" the High Point Plan, all he did was tell us how it would be, and I will never forget his words to us "If the plan fails, it will be the fault of you, the faculty" His plan to make us better was to subject us to a horrible "Racial Healing" workshop. Very costly and led by a woman from Chicago and a man from Wisconsin who made it clear right off the bat that we were racists and they were going to straighten us out. Talk to some teachers who endured this.

Merger was fought by the old GCS, we lost, and so did the kids and teachers of the area.

Posted by: Carol Dunn [TypeKey Profile Page] at December 21, 2005 09:35 AM

Go back to the math. You can only racially balance the schools in proportion to the racial make up of the county. A school that is roughly 28% black, 65% white and the rest latino or asian would be nearly perfectly racially balanced in Guilford County. That wouldn't be good enough for a lot of people. So the solution must be to kick some white kids out of the public schools, otherwise there is nothing you can do to achieve what you are asking for.

It won't help a kid living on Florida Street to get shipped to Northwest High School every day any more than it would help a kid in Stokesdale to get shipped to Dudley every day. Yet, these scenarios would be necessary if you simply do the math. You have to think the "problem" through before you make accusations and criticisms.

Further, what evidence do you have Allen, that your dream school system would yield the result you are seeking? What exactly IS the result you are seeking? Suppose we implement your dreme scheme and nothing changes? What if emperical data suggests that your dream scheme has been tried and did not produce the result you wanted, then what?

How exactly does socio-economic diversity translate into better individual performance? Explain the logic (other than osmosis)- how to you get from point A to point B? I just haven't seen any proof that there is a link between increased diversity and performance. What exactly would be the magical threshold number that must be reached before the performance increase kicks in? What about outside factors such as the teachers, or parents (you remember them) and how would they effect this magic formula?

A theory should be based on facts, and when disproven, it should be discarded.

I also think you should read this link that I sent to John Robinson- it may explain a little bit why liberals live in fantasy land and don't feel they have to justify their arguments with logic and common sense.

http://realclearpolitics.com/Commentary/com-12_21_05_TL.html

Actually, Sam, the Guilford Schools are not 68 percent white. They are now majority minority.

Sam, actually, I have no idyllic delusions about it; in fact, I'm a realist, and part of learning about the real world, as I see it, ought to be exposure to different races and cultures, don't you think?

Samuel,
excellent points.

I think that all this talk about diversity is a diversion that stops us forcing Terry Grier and his admin accountable.

Dudley has improved scores by 20+% the last four years. Andrews has gone the other direction the same if not more.

If you can do it in one school why not another?

The reason. Bad management!

LETS STOP FIGHTING BETWEEN OURSELVES!

LETS JOIN TOGETHER!

MAKE GRIER ACCOUNTABLE!

Sorry I meant to say.

I think that all this talk about diversity is a diversion that stops us forcing Terry Grier and his admin TO BE accountable.

Trust,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Neighborhood schools have worked in other areas. Your example of Dudley is excellent. It takes effort, resources, commitment. They have worked in other states.

It so much easier to just blame a "not perfect" student body. To me that is an insult. All the busing just hides kids in a big mix and makes the total numbers look better. Move the higher scoring children. Magically the numbers improved. You have not helped any students who continue to struggle. Just social pass them. No one will notice until they have no marketable skills. By then the superintendent get another raise because the numbers "look" better.

It is not the same world as 1954. We have come a long way. Many just choose to use this excuse.

Careful, Hard Work and Trust. You're getting much too close to the truth.

Trust:
You're right. Test scores are going up at my alma mater. But diversity isn't simply about test scores. It's as much about learning as reading, writing and arithmetic.
How do you learn to live in and appreciate a diverse society if you're not exposed to it?
Dudley wasn't desegregated when I attended in the 1970s to raise test scores. Our academics were excellent. But our facilities clearly were not up to par with predominantly white schools. Beyond those considerations, segregation is plain wrong.
It was morally wrong then and it's morally wrong now.

Allen, there is no force in this county that is in any way acting to actively segregate their school. Again, look at the picture of SW school yesterday from the N&R. You think this is some kind of Currier and Ives picture from rural Vermont, like all you need is a white church steeple in the background? You are preaching to the choir here. If many of the parents wanted their kids in a segregated school they'd be private or they would move to rural Vermont. The parents want their kids close to home, not bused around. Especially not to service someone else's politcal agenda or need to demographically rehab THEIR local school. The segregation forces are economic forces NOT subject to control by thease same parents. You are looking to crucify someone to wish this away. You can't wish it away so you displace your frustration onto us.

Allen,

Segregation is wrong. Neighborhood schools does not necessarilty mean segregation. It means not busing students of all races all over creation for some "perfect magic number" that will never happen. A Utopian idea that is a dream. Both black and white races have said they want neighborhood schools instead of a long bus ride at many of the forums all over the county. This is what parents and students want. Now there are long bus rides that the county cannot afford.

Diverse schools are still segregated from within. Go into any diverse school and look at the lunch tables in groups. See what parties and places students go after school. Who is at the country club playing golf and who is hanging out somewhere else. This is not just by color but by a class system in our society. Look at the magnet schools within a school. Look within a school to see what really goes on.

It won't matter if our schools are diverse, neighborhood or a mixture of both. As the broken trust, promises and wasting of money in Guilford County continues, you will just see more and more trailers and schools busting at the seams. Future bond referendums will never pass. In the end with no new buildings, and more teachers exiting Guilford County every year, more special needs not being addressed, and students hidden in the statistics, all children will be the losers. They will just become tomorrow's new statistic. Drop outs.

The lessons of the past (and present) tell us that racially and socio-economically segregated schools tend to create have- and have-not situations, a caste system in which there are rich and poor schools.
Separate and unequal. That's my fear.

If you look at the demographics of school age children, I think my numbers are pretty accurate. However, if you look at actual enrollment it comes down to this: White 44.6, Black 40.7, Hispanic 6.0, Asian 4.4, Multiracial 3.7, Native American 0.6.

So why don't you draw a map and figure out how you are going to get those kind of ratios in every school without forcing kids to get up at 5:00 am to catch a bus and then get home at 6:30 pm every night. For what? So you can feel better about yourself? What evidence do you have Allen, that you will actually accomplish something? Again, it's a magic number thing- I.E., if my school is 20% minority, I won't "get" the monolithic "minority culture" (doesn't exist, but let's pretend it does). But if it's 21%, all these magical diversity doors will open, and suddenly I will be enlightened. Where is the number?

Or what about the reverse- you're a minority in a majority white school- don't you already "get" it, or do you need FEWER whites to get it? Oh, I see now, it's only whites that don't get it. That's why diversity is important - to educate ignorant whites. Of course exactly what it is we are supposed to be educating them with can't be defined, we only know that it is better.

Allen, this is crap. I hate to be so crass, but it's true. I went to Andrews in the 80's when it was a fairly well integrated school. I had many minority friends. I still see many of these friends frequently, and they aren't really any different from my white friends. I wasn't exposed to anything new that I didn't get outside of my school experience. This is anecdotal evidence, but it's more than you have provided. I have no problem at all with diversity, but if it is going to be a policy with potential adverse affects (such as long bus trips), you better have some better evidence (or any evidence) that there is a benefit, and the benefit outweighs the costs.

I feel very sorry for those students at Dudley because they must be the most unenlightened kids in the county. They probably wouldn't know what to do if they saw an actual white person since they haven't been exposed to any of them at their 99% minority school.

Allen, you said -
"The lessons of the past (and present) tell us that racially and socio-economically segregated schools tend to create have- and have-not situations, a caste system in which there are rich and poor schools.
Separate and unequal. That's my fear."

Wasn't Dudley just completely renovated? Doesn't you r statement refer to a time when segregation was legal? Perhaps you are the one living in 1954. And what data do you have that a "rich school" will produce a "rich student"? Plenty of accomplished people came from poor schools, and many a convicted felon and loser came from a rich school. I'm not arguing with you to justify my point, but rather to challenge you to produce evidence to support yours. I could be persuaded if solid evidence was provided, but to date I have never seen any evidence to support the benefits of a policy of "diversity for the sake of diversity".

Allen, when are you going to learn that your lamenting seperate and unequal presumably in favor of together and equal, for everybody, everywhere is a nice, abstract, theoretic, utopian yearning that YOU have. It unfortunately is not the case ANYWHERE in the world in the whole history of the planet, and never has been. It has nothing to do with the parents in Guilford Co. who have to make daily concrete decisions as to their child's welfare and interests. So drive the nails, raise the cross, cast the lots. It's almost time.

Dudley had a how many million dollar expansion this year? A record amount for money spent on a school while other children go to school in trailers! This is a joke to call this is have not situation. Give me a break.

Spend money on good teachers and programs instead of 1/2 million on racial healing that teachers feel resentful and insulted about.

And bottom line, busing for race is illegal.

All schools should have equal recources. The school system is accountable for this. They can be held accoutable with all people working together instead of being resentful toward one another. People should unite to make sure this happens, no matter what color or how much money students have.

Your own newspaper seems to indicate that the reassignment plan was a failure - things got significantly worse academically at Andrews and Central, and even though Southwest became more integrated, Andrews and Central got less integrated. They used actual facts and statistics, not just liberal wishful thinking in the news story.

Do you think we all do better when we all do worse? Should we encourage people to achieve more, or try to level things so everyone does equally mediocre? As Abraham Lincoln said "You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong." Maybe that is what you want. At least we'd all be theoretically equal. In any case, the N&R story can be found here:
http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20051224/NEWSREC0101/512230318

I suppose the rebuttal will be "they didn't give it a chance". How long should we have waited? If it did last as long as you hoped and was still a failure, then what?

Maybe you should write a piece on your dream education system (rooted in facts and reality, of course). Explain what you are trying to achieve and how your plan will get there. That would be interesting.

Oh well, a Merry Christmas to all. There is hope, we just need to deal in reality first.

Bruce had a great article in the paper today!

I do question though why it was titled "Tough decisions still ahead for High Point schools"

Any new reassignment plan for High Point high schools may involve a decision on diversity.

Once again High Point is being treated as a separate entity. Shouldn't any new reassignments in Guilford County schools be scrutinized in the same manner?

Allen;

The N&R's new "Anti-Alan Duncan Doctrine".

We the editors of the N&R hereby decree that once a public office holder casts a vote, no matter how absurd or destructive to the community it is, he must stick to his decision and refuse to admit he made a mistake, so help them God. This is especially applicable if the absurd policy was consistent with our own unique fringe views.

Excellent post John G. I'm ready for the diversity program to begin - COUNTY-WIDE this time.

I don't care what the percentages are, just apply them school by school, regardless of the school..

Start in downtown Greensboro with Dudley and Grimsley and keep on moving outward from the county seat.

"The lessons of the past (and present) tell us that racially and socio-economically segregated schools tend to create have- and have-not situations, a caste system in which there are rich and poor schools."

Sorry to join in on this so late. I'm here on a lark, so to speak. But Allen, I have a question regarding this statement. Do you think that the relationship between segregated schools and segregated society is one of cause and effect? Or are both a perhaps reflection of a more deep-seated problem?

It is statistically significant that less-diverse school populations do succeed often at higher rates. Let's not avoid overwhelming numerical correlation.

The question is: which particular public "goods" do we wish for our schools across the entire county? Or does Guilford County want to secede from Greensboro (were it possible)? Perhaps toll roads into and through the city would be another "good", then? And user taxes on library, arts and entertainment, and an income tax on money made at businesses located in the city?

Isn't the Guilford County school system for ALL county children? Don't all of them have equal rights to the same quailty education?

Since a lot of crucial financial support is donated (raised by sports and other diversions) in wealthier neighborhoods; and I believe the property tax money is still divvied up so the most goes to the highest assessed areas; those enclaves of white upper-middle and solid-middle citizens will always clamour for de facto segregated schools.

It isn't a matter of just getting the best grades at one's own school, but spreading wealth around to help all schools. Part of that wealth goes beyond money alone: it means the wealth of diverse ways of seeing and experiencing the world. I mant my kids raised with wonder and curiosity and exposure to many languages and ideas through travel and reading and to have the chance daily to share their ideas and dreams and ambitions with children of many ethnic and, yes, economic backgrounds.

Apparently more Guilford County residents, like the majority of Americans, prefer to "circle the wagons". Or do they honestly also want to have their children given the same opportunities I want for mine?

I meant in the first line "less-diverse mostly white Middle class schools" succeed statistically. Two books I recently read on this phenomenon: "Freakonomics" by Stephen Leavitt and "Shame of the Nation" by Jonathan Kozol.

I agree the situation is a reflection of suburban sprawl. Until more of us are willing and happy to live side by side with those of different cultures and means (woe to the vaunted property values!), I am afraid the resegregation will continue apace.