News-Record.com

The answer is competition in education. Give students and parents choices about where the kid goes to school and they can make their own determination on whether a long commute is worth it or if they'd rather stay close to home.

For example, let's say some genius is hanging around Guilford County with all sorts of wonderful ideas about how to educate kids yet the guy is unable to implement his plans in the current bureaucracy. Give kids a choice on where to go to school and this fella can open his school downtown central to everyone. Let's say SAT scores at his school skyrocket, discipline problems are nil and everyone is getting accepted at top colleges. I guarantee to you that whites, blacks, hispanics and asians will be beating down the door to go to school together.

Allen, how do you feel about Dudley being segregated?

I have repeatedly asked the question of you, your co-editors, and of the School Board, How do you reconcile the fact that you all seem to live in neighborhoods which attend the nearest school,(please correct me if I'm wrong on that). I have yet to see an editorial or hear an outcry for greater diverisity at Grimsley or Dudley.

Southwest Guilford has taken a lot of editorial heat over the past three years, yet it is more diverse in terms of race and socioeconomics than either Grimsley or Dudley. Dudley is the least diverse school in the whole county in terms of race, and you have admitted on this blog that this concerns you. Why does this concern never seem to make it in an editorial? Is it easier to pick on an area in which do do not live?

While you're on this subject,

I consider myself a reasonable, logical person. I teach at a local community college. I love the diversity that I experience in my classes. I know firsthand that the barriers that exist for my students are mainly financial. I have yet to have a student who is not capable of learning due to income or race.

Please explain using logic and statistics why parts of the county are treated differently. Please do an in-depth journalistic report on the specifics of how busing kids in only one area of a school district is prudent when the same issues exist county-wide.

If someone could just present me with sound data and logic, I would not be so skeptical of everything you publish.

Questions I would like answered.
What is the objective of socioeconomic diversity in terms of real improvement in academics?

What is the specific mechanism (the pedagogy) at work here? Some comments from educational experts who are objective and don't have a political agenda would be good. Perhaps the News and Record could sponser a community forum on this issue.

How is the integration of higher achieving students with lower achieving students suppose to work at the high school level? Students in high school are the most seperated when it comes to academics. High achievers are in Honors and AP classes. They may be on the same piece of real estate, but specifically what mechanism is going to help the low income students and low achieving students?

I sincerely want to know.

We use to have some real fine cutting horses and some good mules. We kept them in the same pasture year after year but it didn't make cutting horse out of the mules and it didn't make mules out of the cutting horses. The cutting horses continued to work cattle and the mules continued to plow.

Perhaps that will shed some light on your question ScottB.

I'm for equality accross the board. That's either neighborhood schools for all or diversity for all.

You want diversity?? Than I'm with the poster above, start with Dudley. It's the closest high school to the center of the town that is the county-seat isn't it?

If you notice the very few people who got up and pleaded for diversity at the publice forum, they would probably have their kids be part of the their neighborhood school and they want everyone else to participate in diversity.

So what's it going to be Allen, are you ready to breakup Dudley for the sake of diversity?? Or are you just all talk too.

Once again the N&R, in keeping with it's sole reason for existence, in today's editorial contiues to frame everything in terms of race. Allen or Doug, does it not strike you as absurd you comparing a school that is 40+ % minority as some type as pre-Brown school? Is it not absurd to imply that these people who's children go there are some type of smoldering bigots?

As has been repeated ad nauseum, the HP choice plan was not part of any type of coherent county "diversity" policy on the part of the board, but was a internectine stuggle between groups of white people in High Point that came to a head. Several boardmembers who happened to be alumni of one particular school decided to exploit one of the other groups to help reverse what they felt was an unfavorable demographic at their school, by making it look like they were doing it FOR the people who they thought represented the unfavorable demographic. This is the same trick all post-bellum southern populists have used to get what they want. Anybody at the HP mtg last thurs. saw the venom being spit in the room, and it wasn't being spit between races. You actually had Mendenhall go to the Central PTA to ask people to speak for a map that had NO implications for them at all, but would tear apart somebody elses school simply out of malice.

Although it's much more sexy, will sell more papers, and keep alive someone's sense that they are fighting a valiant struggle against bigotry, to continue to frame this in terms of race is ridiculous. I know it's helps that one of the editorialists is a member of one of the groups. We have to get past this, and call this occurence what it is- simply old-timey High Point power politics that went haywire.

To Tancey:
As a Dudley alumnus who attended the school when it was 100 percent black as a 10th-grader and a year later when it became more than 40 percent white, I definitely believe Dudley needs to be more diverse.
I also believe I learned life lessons at Dudley that I would not have learned had it not been desegregated. Many of my white classmates agree.

To John Gehris:
Nobody here is implying that schools with unbalanced racial and socioeconomic enrollments are populated by racist parents, students or administrators.
That would be more than unfair.
I believe simply that such enrollments shortchange us all in the long run.
As for the High Point plan, I don't know all the motives of those who favored it. But I do consider it shortsighted and premature to pull the plug on the plan before giving it a chance to work ... or not work.

You're right, Allen. So some kids got shipped miles away to a school they didn't want to go to, people have to do stuff they don't want to do all the time, right? Why not give a few hundred more kids this same opportunity. We should have stuck with it. If it works, fine. If it doesn't-ah, no skin off your back. Who do these people think they are anyway?

Allen,
Please, please, please write an editorial demanding that Greensboro experiment with a "choice" plan for four years. Ask your neighbors to voulunteer their kids for this four year experiment and see what they say. I'm sure Marti Sykes will want to volunteer her neighborhood as well.

You seem all too willing to subject my kids to an unproven educational experiment. You and the school board have no idea the trauma that my family has endured over the past two years with this utterly STUPID plan!

I vow that my kids will be the last generation of my family to attend public school. My eighth grader told me during a conversation about the school board and its actions that he was going to college and upon graduation, there is no circumstance in which he will return to Guilford County. Another straight A student who will move away. This will be the current school boards legacy.

I see the point about fairness to High Point, but logistically the High Point plan doesn't translate very well to Greensboro for several reasons, including the larger number and more far-flung locations of schools.
That said, Greensboro has serious issues in its schools that need addressing when it comes to diversity and academic performance.
Both should be systemwide concerns.

M. Produce:
I think I know you better than this, but you're not comparing our kids to cutting horses and mules, are you?

Allen,

That is a sad excuse to let Greensboro off the hook. Let's see, Greensboro is different, schools are too far apart, there are larger number of schools. Honestly, Allen, that is bull, and you know it. If you want to publish an editorial calling for more diversity in Guilford County schools that's fine, but have the honesty to say that all schools should participate equally, regardless of the issues or barriers. How can you publish an editorial calling for greater diversity in schools and one that is almost in the shadow of your building has only 7 white students? Is that OK? If it is not, take the school board and administration to task on it, if you really believe that diversity will solve problems in the schools.

Allen,

why not just put billboards outside High Point for prospective parents looking at the town:
WARNING: ENTER HERE AND YOU ARE FAIR GAME, BECAUSE OF YOUR GEOGRAPHY, TO HAVE YOUR KIDS MESSED WITH TO ASSUAGE LOCAL NEWSPAPER EDITORS' GUILTY CONSCIENCE.

Or maybe you actually are a secret agent for the Greensboro Chamber of Commerce

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but two of the three High Schools in High Point are being supervised and managed by the State of NC as a result of issues related to poor student performance, etc. That's a pretty poor situation when a state body has to step in locally to address an issue. Seldom happens.

I don't think the State has seen the necessity to insert itself into other Guilford County schools as it did in HP. Initially, the Board of Ed did the right thing to step in and say a change in student mix is necessary to exact change. Unfortunately, this decision was made by individuals with little backbone to see the project through to completion.

The Board may have failed initially by overturning the lottery, but as a result of redistricting because of the growth of the school district may find it necessary to create this mix anyway.

Hank W.

Maybe you can tell us about your experience of having your kids used as remedial agents for under-performing schools. If you had a good experience with it, maybe you can convince us it wasn't that bad.

I remember fondly looking into my daughter's face right after she was born, looking heavenward and exclaiming; "Lord, would only that one day, she be worthy enough to be used in Frank W.'s program to help some school run into the ground by a pack of bone-headed, inept school administrators"!

Hank,

What you are suggesting and promoting is the death knell of public education in this country. If having your kids in public school implies abjectly offering them up to be used at the whim of administrative boobs and corrupt politician's to do with as they see fit, NO SANE PERSON would do it. It's the final straw towards creating a true educational caste system in this country, where all people of any means whatsoever will put their kids in private school and the public schools will all be doomed to second-class status. This is EXACTLY what is happening, especially here in NC. You're paradoxically killing what you're trying to save.

John G.,

Honestly, can't say any of my children were diverted to an underperforming school to boost scores, etc. Though, I've never lived in a school system where the State had to step in and say shame on the community as it did in HP.

However, my kids have been in schools where students in underperforming schools were transferred to theirs.

It was a real life experience for them, opening their eyes to the difficulties that others faced and giving them a greater appreciation for what they had, and at the same time making friendships that have lasted a lifetime with others not of their ethnic and social background.

I wonder if Andrews and Central had a mostly White student body would there be the outpouring of protest as there has been about the reassignment and surrounding issues? Probably not.

On the issue of boosting test scores by simply bringing in bloc of high achievers, that's a red herring. Schools are measured not by average scores but how each subgroup does. If a particular subgroup does poorly enough, the school still fails.

Children should be allowed to attend school in a district near their home, however, I am continually amazed at the amount of venom that comes out of these supposedly, sane, and probably wanna-be christians. You might not like the notion of race being an issue, but face it. It is, no one expects any of the closet racist to come out, but at least try to mask it. If you said the truth you might get a more positive response, because if there is an abundance of fighting and suspensions in a school, I myself, a black man would be hesitant about my little girl going to school. Just tell the truth!

Hank,

No, there was only one school where the state had to take it over for rehab, Andrews.

Your logic totally escapes me about the High Point schools. How are they different than the Greensboro schools? In case you missed it, the three high schools in High Point have been part of Guilford County Schools for about 10 years. If the schools there are failing, it is the responsibility of the school board to fix, not the students that attend the schools. And, if the problems facing schools in this county are because of an imbalance in diversity, then there are some schools in Greensboro that are in worse need of fixin, namely Dudley High that only has 7 white students. Finally, just because the state hasn't taken over any schools in Greensboro, does not mean that they are functioning just fine. They are not. If schools need to be fixed in this county, let's do it and let's do it to all of them.

Mitchell, just get over the black racism thing that you have. It's getting old that every problem has to do with racism. There are reasons that things are the way they are that are not related to racism. Just get over it, will you? You sound like a broken record, and you are just eaten up with racist thoughts. Man, you are going to make your ill if you keep it up.

Andrews is on the state records as being one of the 4 lowest performing schools in the state. Anyone moving to this area checks out the schools. No one is going to choose to go to one of the lowest schools in the state it doesn't matter what the school body make-up is.

Someone above mentioned that there is a state team at that school in High Point (Andrews) and not anywhere else in the county. This is a COUNTY school run by a COUNTY SCHOOL BOARD. Study the state report card. Other county schools may be having their own state teams soon.

Children did not cause the problem. The problems did not occur overnight. Busing children in will not solve the problem. Moving low achieving children out and not addressing their educational needs will not solve the problem. It is a shell game.

At a recent school board meeting the Central representative said she did not like the "numbers" on a certain map as it put certain numbers too high. An at-large representative said the City of High Point is hurting economically. It is not about saving children's education. It is about saving a dying city and using "the right kind of children" to "save" a dying urban area. This is a very negative message to send all the children, that they have different "values" attached to them. Sad indeed.

Recently it was reported that the Central PTA decided on Map D to hold the lines. Shortly thereafter certain parents in Emorywood and other movers and shakers met with the Central representative and chose another Map. All heresay; but from several different sources. It is politics through and through. The Choice Plan was not about education. If it was, it failed miserably. It is about personal agendas of a dying inner city.

People in North High Point are tired of having no say while the city takes their tax dollars and uses their children as a commodity.

"You're paradoxically killing what you're trying to save." by John Gehris

That says it all.

Hank, you're preaching to the choir here. My kids' school is 40% minority. That's what we're trying to tell you. Our kids are being taken only because they are geographically handy enough to possibly serve somebody else's needs.

Allen,

I would leave you on this topic with one piece of information. You mention the 1954 decision regarding Brown vs. Board of Education of Topeka at the same time that you criticize the neighborhood school concept. Let me tell you a story about that.

In Topeka, Kansas, a black third-grader named Linda Brown had to walk one mile through a railroad switchyard to get to her black elementary school, even though a white elementary school was only seven blocks away. Linda's father, Oliver Brown, tried to enroll her in the white elementary school, but the principal of the school refused.

Allen, this landmark case originated because Linda Brown had to walk one mile to get to her school. She was not allowed to attend her "neighborhood" school. Her father wanted her to be able to attend a school seven blocks from her house, i.e., her neighborhood school. Mr. Brown wanted for his daughter the same thing that most every parent in Guilford County does for their children, to attend a neighborhood school. This is what parents have wanted for their children for decades, and not for their children to be sent to a school far, far away to suit someone else's agenda.

Hank W.

By the way, to correct and inform you on one other point. The School Board did not vote to overturn the lottery as you suggest because they had no backbone or got weak knees. If you were not watching carefully, you might have missed a subtlety offered by Chairman Alan Duncan. The lottery was being based upon use of FRL data to determine which students would be given preference to attend Southwest High. The U.S.D.A. advised them that was an illegal use of that data and for them to stop and desist from using it. Since the schools did not have a valid basis for sorting students by socioeconomic status, they had no other choice to can the lottery. Sure, there were several members who were against the lottery from day one that voted to kill it, but the swing vote was Alan Duncan's. You can most reliably wager that if they had had another realiable measure to use, the lottery would be alive and well. So, the decision to can the lottery wasn't so much about lack of backbone or weak knees, but rather about using illegal data. They had no choice. A truly random laottery wouldn't have produced the results that they desired. Someone at GCS blew it. they should have known that their lottery was operating illegally.

Allen, Below is a cut & paste from the Chalkboard strand on this same subject (strand started with copy of your editorial). Biotek Boy explains it best. We are all very tired of everyone trying to make this a "race" issue which it is not. It has been divide and conquer tactics from the very beginning. "Race" has been a handy buzz word to use. I think this post puts a face on who you should really be asking WHY our children are failing in Guilford County. It is not the parents who have continued to ask for accountability nor the children GCS wants to bus. And to whomever posted about state teams coming in, I say "bring it on" and the feds too. They certainly couldn't do any worse than some of our supposedly educational experts are doing now in many of our schools. Study the NC report card on all Guilford County Schools, the AYP's and the ABC's. Central and Andrews didn't even have enough kids tested to qualify for the ABC's. Why is that? NCLB was put in place to HELP children who are failing not to try to "GET PAST" the intent of the law. If our schools are failing, the government needs to step in. CUT & PASTE BEGINS:

David,
We haven’t spoken in a while; I hope you and your family are well. It is amazing to me that the BOE and media (including the blogosphere) have everyone pointing fingers, rumors running rampant, and name-calling. Whether it’s me or you, a NHP parent or a parent from the poorest neighborhood in Guilford County, or any parent in the world, we all want the same thing for our children and that is a quality education. It’s not about what color of skin the person next to your child has or how much money their parents bring home. I happen to believe that diversity brings knowledge and a comfort that chases away fears of the unknown, and gives our children the building blocks to succeed in our increasingly globalized society. The issue that needs to be addressed here and in the media is the failure of this school board to ensure that all schools in Guilford County provide the bare minimum education for our society (yes I mean society). We must hold the BOE accountable to provide all children with a basic education, and also to establish outstanding educational opportunities for any child in any area of Guilford County. I realize that the word failure is strong. However, the BOE needs to understand that one can learn from a failure and make improvements. There is a lack of trust between the BOE and the residents of Guilford County. This is especially true for the NHP area. When the choice plan was first presented to the parents, the parents raised concerns over the transportation costs and logistics, the ability to procure grant funds along with the promise that if the grant was not funded, there were more than adequate resources to make the three magnet programs “world class”. You and I don’t have to rehash the results of the “choice plan”. We see our BOE talk about FRL students with concern in their tone and yet this is the same BOE which took the Title I status away from Smith, Dudley, Andrews and Central. This amounted to turning down $1.5 million in federal funds for our most underserved students so that kids in these schools would not be able to opt out of their assigned school to an “opt out” school. Perhaps you could ask school board members you know what the logic was behind this move. To a newcomer it looks like the BOE is trying to minimize the tragic results of these schools not meeting their federal and state mandated goals. Furthermore, I am wondering if the current reassignment fiasco is nothing more than a resetting of the clock in an attempt yet again to circumvent federal and state mandates. I would love to hear any thoughts on this. Perhaps I am too cynical but I believe that political pandering is playing far too great a role in the current events. If all schools are given the necessary tools to achieve (yes schools with high FRL numbers should be given additional resources) then all students will benefit from a quality education and the ideal of community based schools will be a model for others to emulate. In an attempt to overcome the rancor I will try in the near future to post examples of other school systems that have overcome greater obstacles than those currently facing GCS.
BTB
Posted by: Biotekboy at January 24, 2006 09:02 PM

And one more thing.

We have heard rumors and they go very high up to certain civic leaders that the "Choice Plan" was to be a Pilot Program, that is was coming to the rest of Guiford County. I have old newspaper articles that make similar statements, and then the story changes later on. I remember a friend of mine asking a school board member before the vote on 2/10/04 "how can this be 'legal' to do this in one part of the county?"

It is felt by many that when Greensboro leaders found out it was "coming to a theater near you" they fought it behind closed doors and it didn't come to Greensboro. Check the numbers people have put out there on the Chalkboard from GCS. This could easily fit into Grimsley, Page, Dudley. So if it was so GREAT why wasn't it brought to Greensboro? Why? And don't tell me about "empty seats" in High Point high schools. Those number of empty seats change daily too. SLC and science labs put into Andrews lessoned the number of empty seats significantly.

Beside what Stormy truthfully stated about an illegal lottery on FRL, there was always the question of treating one part of a school system "different" that the rest of the entire school system.

"Pilot" might have been a great catch all, but it doesn't change possible legal issues.

In conclusion, busing in this country is illegal. People have said they have used "socioeconomic" and "race" in the same context. It's on tapes of SB meetings where this is done. It's printed in newspapers.

So considering all of this, the "Choice" Plan which was never about choice was doomed to fail.

Allen,
about the "does not translate to Greensboro" is a VERY POOR EXCUSE and SHAME ON YOU!

Have you ever looked at the district maps? Smith and Ragsdale are right next to eachother. Must easier to do a scoop there than in HP in actual fact.

SHAME ON YOU!

I think the people of High Point know the politics of High Point better than anyone in Greensboro would know or understand. These people live there. Many of us have been at this for over 4 years, we know what is happening.

Anyone can print any "slant" on it they want, but that doesn't change what is really going on.

Stormy,

You said the U.S.D.A. made the school board stop using FRL data in assigning students. Aren't the maps being proposed for redistricting outlining FRL data? It seems that if they can't use this data for a lottery, they shouldn't be allowed to use it for drawing maps.

Farfel,

It is my understanding from listening to the last SB meeting(s) between what Alan said and the school's attorney, that they can use the old FRL numbers but not any new data. So much of this data may not have changed much.

The attorney had pointed out in past meetings that you could get around this by other means. In other areas of the areas, they use addresses and cost of real estate to get a general idea for how to redistrict to accomplish balance. (Also you can easily drive through the various neighborhoods at different times and get a feel for the demographics of particular neighborhoods.)

I thought Alan's mentioned this would not be as accurate as FRL data.

This is my take of what was discussed from watching the tapes of the meetings as best I can recall.

In conclusion, there are still ways to determine "mix".

Stormy can possibly add to this.

Farfel,

Race is (or at least was) listed with a child's data when they register for school. This can easily be matched in the big computer to create desired balance.

Although I do know many children now who simply put "other".

Remember, there is data on all the subgroups for NCLB reasons. They know how each subgroup is performing.

One additional point, even though schools are measured in different subgroups of NCLB (and Allen mentioned this too), other measures may consider the school as a whole. NCLB data is just ONE measure.

For instance, I believe High Point and Central did not even have enough kids show up for the test so the could not even be included in the ABC results. Therefore, the teachers didn't even get the consideration for bonuses as a result of the ABC criteria.

All factors: State report card, AYPs, ABCs, police reports on number of violent incidents, number of suspensions, teacher turnover rate, number of different principals in the past few years, PTA involvement, etc. need to be considered to get the true TOTAL picture of a particular school.

It is other factors beside one subgroup failing and making the entire school "fail".

I think ALan said they would not be able to use it going forward for school assignments. They can use it now but everyear it would get out of date. I think he also said they could have it available per postcode but then that would be very misleading. It is a reference that we still continue to see and its obviously very complicated but in the bitter end it is illegal to use it for school assignment.

As many of us thought!

Thanks Truth. It sounds like if county-wide redistricing is their goal, they should do the whole county NOW while the data is still available.

If I didn't know better, I would say they are trying to "fix" High Point now and next year they will say they can no longer use the data so everyone else gets neighborhood schools.

Our reply to Allen's last line.....

"We believe that it doesn't."

Opinions: Just like noses everyone has one.

Allen, lets have a look at some real Data.

What do you think when you see this?

Northwest High:
2006-2279 students/ 86% White/14% minority
2005 FRL-6%

Dudley High:
2006/1687 students/ 1% White/99% minority
2005 FRL-60 %

Smith High:
2006-1601 students/ 7% White/93% minority
2005 FRL-69%

Southeast High:
1340 students/ 76% White/24% minority
2005 FRL-18%

Weaver Academy
2006-258 students/79% White/21%minority
2005 FRL-13.5%

Southwest High
2006-1308 students/56% White/44% minority
2005 FRL 22%

Truth,

You omitted one other intersting example:

Grimsley High
2006-1684 students/58% White/42% minority
2005 FRL 27.5%

I wonder if Marti Sykes thanks those kids at Grimsley need some diversity?

Yes,
I forgot that one. Marti Sykes an upright citizen and a model of all that is just and fair in this world!

At one recent board meeting Marti told us (in other words) that her daughter is open for anything.
She would be wouldn't she? Studying at Grimsley. Low diversity. No Block schedule. No experiments.
Super SAT results.
Oh!!!!!!!!!!!to be a board member.
They really like looking after their local schools.Right Dot? Right Susan?

Since Marti voted, along with the High Point reps, to keep the lottery, do you think that she would be willing to show leadership and champion a lottery to improve diversity in Greensboro, to include Grimsley, Dudley, and Page? That would work wouldn't it? Aren't those three schools pretty close to each other? I know Marti feels strongly about kids needing diversity, and she always says that kids are resilient and can handle things so well. Let's see the leadership Marti!

Allen, hopefully it was an oversight but you completely "mis-headlined" today's Morris LTE to pieces. The lady clearly was admonishing against "quick" fixes to the educational system and you implied that any fix is a waste of time.
Now, one can conclude that you either didn't read her letter or decided to do a "Goebbels" on it by shrewdly marginalizing the lady by giving her an absurd headline. Any comment?

John,

Great Point! I think Allen is ignoring us now. Seems like the Grimsley, Dudley, Page people are too. I might suggest just e-mailing him and the other editors direct.

Barb, cut Allen a break. He's probably writing his next piece of propaganda...er...I mean his next editorial, and he doesn't have time to be checking his blog all the time. Plus, he's tired of listening to all us whiners all the time anyway, after all, the blog is entitled; "Thinking Out Loud" not "For Crying Out Loud".

Okay, we will give him some time until the next PR campaign comes out. But were are all the other Greensboro blogging groupies?

You must have scared them away with your wit and common sense.

Thanks for all the comments.
This has been an interesting thread.
One problem: This was not supposed to be a discussion of the High Point plan. It's history.
We have beat that dead horse into its afterlife.
I am more interested in a discussion of the value of diverse student bodies, and whether they are worth pursuing.
I have written time and again that the resegregation in many of our schools (in Greensboro and elsewhere) is alarming. I already know the numbers and they are disconcerting.
Can we get back to that?

No plan or map will ever succeed without fairness and above all, community BUY-IN. Trust in the school board must be restored.

Between the forced redistricting of High Point, the violence in the schools and the shrinking furniture market, the city will continue to die a slow, painful economic death. Realtors are already seeing the negative results of the Choice plan. The city leaders started to speak up when they realized what was happening. (Beside that and Fantasia's outting them.)

The next furniture market is scheduled the same time for the men's basketball tournament in Greensboro. Cities competing with cities for consumer dollars.
Talk about cooperation!

Greed by certain people; not caring about taxpayers and their children will continue to negatively affect the city of High Point. It will be the City of "Could Have Been" and "If Only You Had Listened".

Allen,

One correction to your last point, the only thing that is dead with the choice plan is the lottery. As far as we know, everything else is in place. What is being wrangled now is redistricitng to accomplish the same goals that the lottery was intended to achieve.

I agree, let's talk about the diversity issues in Greensboro. Yes, diversity in Greensboro doesn't look very good. When you have a school with 1,687 students, and only 7 of them are white, you are definitely diversity-challenged. So when will the school board address this problem and redistrict Dudley? If you want to talk about the problems of lack of diversity, Dudley is the poster child.

Now, what are you and the News-Record going to do about it? You've both been silent on the issue.

I agree with you Allen.

Those Dudley kids are losing out.

When is Amos going to do something about it?

Actually, we haven't been silent on the issue.
Monday's editorial addressed it and cited some of the enrollment numbers, including Dudley's.
So did an editorial on Jan. 1, which named resegregation in the schools as a key challenge in 2006.
Monday's editorial is still online at the N&R Web site. It's also posted on the Challkboard.

Truth, Dudley is hardly Amos's responsibility alone, is it?

Let's boil this down to the REAL REAL isssue: Does government decide where children go to school or do parents? If the answer per Allen Johnson et.al. is "government", does this "right" then supercede that of parents and thereby void the parents' implicit social contract that they engage in when agreeing to purchase, maintain and pay tax on a home in a certain school district. Is forfeiture of this right implied by choosing public education?

If this is the new modus, we need a total revamping of the whole social system. Why pay more for a home in a good school district? Why bother forming bonds, supporting your local school, promoting neighborhood pride or solidarity-next week, if a politician thinks they need some more of this or some more of that at their neighborhood school that directly props up "their" home values- you're gone. If a politician thinks they need to say; "save" a certain municipality, Arividirci, Baby!

Sounds good! There is a "Three Stooges" episode where the boys tangle with a dictator in an iron curtain country called "Moronia". We'll call this new country "Johnsonia".

SUBJECT: DIVERSITY

If the School Board feels that is the way they want the ONE COUNTY MOVEMENT to go than they should pursue it for ALL schools in the county, starting first with Dudley. This will show true leadership and unity in the efforts to diversify the entire county. Otherwise this is hypocritical.

If the School Board decides to listen to what the majority of the parents in this county have been saying, black communities and white communities alike, then they should make Neighborhood Schools the top priority in the COUNTYWIDE MOVEMENT and quit treating High Point different than Greensboro. I have attended many forums over the years and the majority of ALL parents have spoken out in favor of neighborhood schools just as they did in 1999. Also we must be realistic and consider the cost of fuel in busing this way and that. We must consider the legalities of busing for race.

You can have the primary goal of Neighborhood Schools and still accomplish diversity. What is the magic Utopian "number"? Can anyone answer this question?

Diversity can be accomplished through magnet programs in High Point as it now is in Greensboro.

If you look at Southwest High School and SW Middle School, both of these schools are quite diverse so why, why, why is the focus always on High Point year after year after year?

Let's start the focus in this county where it rightly needs to be. All of our schools should be SAFE and focus on a sound education for all students. ALL schools should be functioning at least "average" and NOT be on the state's list of the lowest performing schools.

Agreed, Barbara Ann. The solution probably won't be massive busing. But we have to agree as a community that diversity is a worthy goal.
I'm pretty sure we haven't.
As for Dudley, it is a problem, but so are many other schools throughout the county.
This isn't just about Dudley.

So, if segregation happem to be a by-product of all that, it's OK, John G.?

Allen, why don't I have a mansion in Palm Beach? Why don't I have a condo in Aspen? I can't control where people live? Nobody can. You can't legislate diversity. It' can't be done. In a free society it cannot be done. In a capitalist system, it's market driven.

What the fear always comes back to and what Grier always says is that teachers won't go to schools in the poorer sections of town and they can't be forced. This is obvious in a free country. So the thinking seems to be instead let's get a hold of people we can force, KIDS. Nobody wants to see inner city schools become hopeless backwaters of despair. I believe there are dedicated teachers that will go to these schools if they had parental support and support from adminsitration to provide a healthy, safe learning enviornment and maybe some bonus compensation etc.. If they can't do this, expecting a bunch of bused-in kids from a different area to remedy these problems is insane.

There are many questions that can't be answered. Or maybe we're afraid of the answer.

How can a local university raise forty million dollars for expansion and a high school blocks away not afford paper? You tell me. It's all free market driven. Free markets have no conscience.

John G asks: "Does government decide where children go to school or do parents?"

In the end, the answer is, of course, government... or more accurately, such decisions are made by our duly-elected governmental representatives. To do otherwise would be even more chaotic than what we currently have.

And then... to this question: "Why pay more for a home in a good school district?"

Perhaps you are right, some institutional change is in order, because the wealth of the parent should not have bearing on what makes for a "good school". Put your question on a wider level.

Is a child in, say, Bertie County - where per pupil spending is less than half of Guilford - any less deserving of going to a 'good school' than one of my children here? But the truth is, poor counties (or poor neighborhoods) are too often saddled with you would term "bad schools".

These are "public schools", not "fiefdom schools". Every child in public school deserves a "good school district" regardless of how much money the parents have paid for their house.

A visitor to my blog left this comment a couple of days ago, and I find it hard to refute his points...

"We must remember that society educates children, at great expense to the whole, because we see an educated populace as a social good. The public good is the "customer" of public education, not the individual desires of parents with children in the schools. If these parents want to shop for a specifically tailored education, let them finance a private education. The public good must remain the primary purpose of publicly financed education."

Arguments?

Good points, David. We seem to be devolving into a more fragmented community, where the notion of the greater community good seems to be fading.

John G.:
You make it seem as if the better-off kids are expected to be missionaries, brought in to save poor minority kids.
That's close to being insulting.
The idea is not that sitting rich kids beside poor kids creates better learning by osmosis for low achievers.
The idea is that the a diverse enrollment creates a more positive, dynamic learning environment for all kids. Probably a more engaging environment for teachers, too.
On the issue of choice, some parents argued in 1954 that they had a right for their kids to go to the schools of their choice (read: segregated).
Maybe that's what most black and white parents want today. I sure hope not.
Don't get me wrong -- I attended all-black schools until my 11th-grade year of high school.
The instruction was excellent, the atmosphere warm and nurturing.
I received all the tools I needed (and more) to go to college and graduate school.
But although those schools weren't racially diverse, they were socio-economically diverse.
Now we're headed in a direction where we may soon have neither.
I don't see that as healthy.

Allen, if we are going to leave it up to government as Par..I mean, David, suggests, then these officials must be above reproach. I mean, if you are a government official, you can tax the crap out of me, take my tax money and dole it out to your buds as pork, and you can gerrymander my district or ride your political machine to stay in office until complete fossilization occurs, it's a given, but I'm sorry, even if you have the wisdom of Solomon or the compassion of Mother Theresa, you can't gerrymander my kids.

Allen, absolutely it's insulting- "the missionary model". I was amazed people accepted it.

So, John G., what do you say about David Hoggard's earlier comments about a community taking responsibility for all of its schools being quality schools?

"...if we are going to leave it up to government..."

Who(m) would you suggest we should leave it up to, John? A panel of unelected but highly motivated parents? Who among us would elect such a panel?

Even if our school board is far from perfect, they are better than any alternative I can come up with.

Signed, Paris Hoggard (sorry, inside joke ya'll)

Allen,

I don't know about John G., but as for me, I agree that a community should take responsibility for all of its schools being quality schools. We all agree on that point. We all pay taxes, much of which goes to GCS to fund quality schools, about $500 million to be exact. I call that taking responsibility, and that responsibility is then ceded to our BOE to use those funds to ensure that quality schools are available to all students. However, that's where it breaks down. With $500 million each year, the funds are there to ensure every student has a quality school. If it isn't happening, then the school board and Terry Grier should be held to account. Moving students around by redistricting or lottery is not the answer to ensuring quality schools. Students are the audience for quality schools, not the ones responible for creating them.

Allen, compare GCS to our neighbors next door to the west. Take a look at how they run a quality and successful school district. They use their funds effectively, and they are successful in educating all students. The difference is that they have a responsible school board and school superintendent, not intent on playing games. They are serious about students actually getting a good education, and the results show that they are pretty successful. If they can do it, why can't Guilford County? I think that I know the reason.

Now, Allen, we agree that Dudley has isues with being diverse. You've writen a few columns and mentioned the Dudley in them. So, what are you really going to do about it? Yes, there are someother schools where the diversity is not 50-50, but in one of them is the student populations so less diverse than only having 7 white students in a student body of 1,687. By any way of counting, that's minute. If we are going to call for diversity in public schools, let's start where the problemis the most exaggerated. If you are really serious about it, that is.

My next post here contains an article that tells how Forsyth County succeeds. Contrast how things are done in Guilford County. They are striking.

Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Schools:

To say that many North Carolina voters are skeptical of school bonds is definitely not an overstatement.

Just ask officials in Mecklenburg County, where, following a heated political battle, voters resoundingly rejected a $427 million bond for Charlotte-Mecklenburg Schools in November.

And while voters in Wake County approved a $450 million school bond in 2003, school officials know that the planned 2006 bond referendum will be tough sell, considering the fact that they’ll probably ask for at least twice that amount.

Then there’s Forsyth County, where voters passed the last two school bonds, one for $94 million in 1994 and another for $150 million in 2001.Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Schools will ask voters to go the ballot box again this November to approve a bond that will range between $250 million and $290 million, according to superintendent Don Martin.

But Martin and many school board members are confident the bond will pass. If it does, it more than likely will have something to do with the system’s philosophy regarding school construction and renovation. The philosophy is this: Hold the line. Be specific. Once size and occupancy are set, resist wish lists and departmental lobbies that can drive up costs. Question everything.

Sticking to that philosophy has made WSFCS a model for using school bonds efficiently, finishing projects on time and on budget.

“Integrity with the public is critical,” Martin said. “Communication is always a challenge, always a key.”

“We learned real quickly that to be successful in the eyes of the public, you do what you say you’re going to do,” said WSFC school board member Buddy Collins. “There are people who didn’t vote for the last bond referendum who might vote for the next one because of what we did here.”

WSFCS has completed four major projects with money from the 2001 bond. Two high schools, Ronald Reagan and Simon G. Atkins, and one middle school, East Forsyth, opened for the 2005-2006 school year.

A major renovation was also recently completed at Carver High School, where a new performing arts space was built, windows were replaced, the entryway was redesigned and an integrated communications system was installed The total cost came to just over $8 million.

All three new school projects were clustered together to accommodate the increasing student population in Forsyth County. They came in on budget, with Reagan costing $23 million, Atkins costing $22 million and East Forsyth costing $11 million.

During a tour of Reagan High, principal Stan Elrod, a 30-year veteran of WSFCS, marveled at the school’s bang for the buck.

“It’s hard to believe they built this school for under $30 million,” Elrod said. “There was a great thought process here.”

While Reagan is a traditional high school and Atkins is a magnet school focusing on technology, the schools, physically speaking, are carbon copies of each other. The same architect designed both schools, a strategy that saves time and money.

They were constructed as simple rectangles with double –loaded corridors so students can move about with ease during class changes.

Building materials consisted of masonry work with steel partitions. Decorative features such as paint color were kept simple. Built-in casework was kept to minimum and contracted with a manufacturer who could furnish and install it in bulk quantities.

“We’re looking for functionality, not architectural significance,” Martin said. “Sometimes, architects want to build the Taj Mahal. But we’re looking to get from point A to point B. The building is nothing but a tool. We want kids to be comfortable in it, and we want them to feel like somebody cares about them, but we’re not looking for a lot of frills in the construction. You have to develop relationships with architects to make them understand the type of customer you are. We’re not out to win design awards.”

A major feature of both high schools and East Forsyth is movable walls so that the cafeteria, gym and auditorium can convert into one large commons area to accommodate larger crowds.

“Most high school auditoriums sit empty 90-95 percent of the time,” Jim Moorefield, WSFCS construction specialist.

WSFC oversees its own construction, meaning no bond money went to construction management firms. Moorefield and fellow construction specialist Bill Powell spent several years in the private sector before coming to work for the school system, so they not only know construction, but they know how to keep costs down. They had to, or they wouldn’t be able to keep jobs in the private sector, they said

They’re also sensitive to the fact that a good majority of Forsyth County’s population has no direct stake in the school system.

“We’re held accountable for we do,” Moorefield said. “I feel like I’m basically representing an 82-year-old woman on a fixed income. I’m spending her money.”

The line is held pretty well politically speaking, too. Collins says the school system’s solid relationship with Forsyth County commissioners helps things run smoothly.

“If we have certain needs, they are likely to come forth with them,” Collins said.

WSFCS also has one of the few remaining partisan school boards in the state. The partisan board has been in place since 1994, with Republicans holding the majority. The party now holds 7-2 majority, with every member facing reelection in 2006. The board also has a solid relationship with Martin, who has been superintendent since 1994.

“He’s very conservative in the ways that matter,” said school board member Jeannie Metcalf.

Martin said it would be later in the year before the exact amount of the bond proposal would be set. About half of those funds would go to renovation projects since the three new schools helped ease overcrowding, at least for the time being.

But whatever the amount comes to, he’s confident voters will be receptive. The information’s out there; the system’s Web site shows the progress of every project financed by bond money.

“When we start this bond campaign in 2006, we can say we completed every project we promised,” Martin said. “Meeting our promises since 1995 is good.”

Even if our school board is far from perfect, they are better than any alternative I can come up with.

Posted by: David Hoggard at January 26, 2006 09:41 PM

Sorry Dave, there is a better alternative than our school board. Read the Forsyth County story. Our school board can't hold a candle in a calm breeze.

Stormy, I just read the article, and like it very much. This especially...

“We’re held accountable for we do,” Moorefield said. “I feel like I’m basically representing an 82-year-old woman on a fixed income. I’m spending her money.”

Before you disparage my above quote too much, please clarify. Do you favor our schools being governed by Forsyth County's BOE, or would it be a better idea to work hard electing and influencing local people who can duplicate Forsyth's level of trust here in Guilford?

I plan to simply pay the $1850 out-of-county tuition and have my youngest child attend school in Kernersville/Forsyth County.

David,

Nope, not disparaging your quote at all. I was agreeing with you that a community has a responsibility to provide a quality education to all students. I sent the Forsuth County story to show that it can be done, with the right people. Do I favor our schools being governed by Forsyth County's BOE? Nope, but I do favor having people like what I see at Forsyth County and Superintendent Martin. If we can elect people like those, you bet, I would would work with them and trust them.

By way of emphasis, I am posting below another story from Forsyth County Schools website. It's about Atkins School in Winston Salem. Atkins is a new school built in the far east side of W-S in one of the poorest areas of the city. The school is beautiful, and the article tells how they will be opening what every magnet school should be. You'll note that Atkins will have three focuses; pre-engineering, biotechnology, and computer techonolgy. And guess what? That is exactly what GCS said that Andrews High was going to be, a world class school in those areas. This was to be the draw in the Choice Plan. Dot Kearns talked about how great this school would become. There is not one shread of evidence that any of that has transpired two years later.

Guilford County BOE does the talk. Forsyth County BOE does the walk.

June 24, 2005

WS/FCS Receives $900,000 Grant For New Atkins Academic And Technology High School

Winston-Salem/Forsyth County Schools has received a $900,000 grant from the New Schools Project to launch three schools at Atkins Academic and Technology High School.

The grant was announced by Gov. Mike Easley. WS/FCS was one of seven school systems in North Carolina to receive a grant.
The school systems received a total of $2.3 million in financial support and services to open eight health and life sciences high schools across the state this coming fall.

Atkins was built using money from a $150 million bond package that voters approved in 2001. It will open in August.

The school will house three separate schools under one roof: the schools of pre-engineering, biotechnology and computer technology.

“This award will help us tremendously,” said Superintendent Don Martin. “We will prepare students to go to college and join the growing health and life sciences industries in Forsyth County.”

The New Schools Project, the N.C. Department of Public Instruction and other public and private partners have worked with local school systems to develop health and life science-themed high schools across the state. All students will have the opportunity to participate in internship programs and will have access to community college and university-level courses.

Coursework and other learning experiences will focus on the health and life science industries and will prepare students for both higher education and entrance into skilled fields such as health care and biotechnology. All students will participate in a college preparatory curriculum and have access to work-based experiences and community college and university-level courses. Locally, a curriculum advisory committee chaired by Len Preslar, the president and chief executive of N.C. Baptist Hospital, has worked with school-system staff for the past 18 months to ensure that the curriculum is relevant.

Each school will have no more than 100 students per grade for a maximum of 400 students per school.

The North Carolina New Schools Project was launched by Easley and his Education Cabinet in 2003. Grant funding for the New Schools Project, including the $2.3 million for health and life sciences-themed schools, comes from an $11 million grant from the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. The New Schools Project will create more than 100 new and redesigned high schools across the state.

Take a look at the new Atkins High.

http://web2k.wsfcs.k12.nc.us/atkinshs/

Sorry for the misplaced accusation....

You really need to learn how to create hyperlinks, Stormy.

Allen, all schools should be quality schools. There should be a chicken in every pot, a Lexus in front of every house. We should all be built like Brad Pitt and Halle Berry. Every family should have two educated, mature, self-actualized parents and 2.5 healthy, happy kids with a golden retriever asleep in front of the hearth. I'm on board...You're preaching to the choir. Is it anybody's responsiblity if this is unattainable? Could any government or community in the history of civilization make it attainable?

The plain truth is that many if not most parents everywhere, even the make-believe ones above, are probably running as fast as they can to pay the bills, and participate at a school close to home. Your model pre-supposes there are people-women laying about eating bon-bons, going to the club, helping at school, raising well-adjusted kids, generous dads with oodles of lesiure time and income to attend school activites and support not only the local school but one across town etc. This is fallacy. How much more responsibility can they reasonably take on?

Allen,

Staying on the Forsyth County theme, it might be enlightening for Allen and others to look at the Forsyth County Schools website to see how they assign students to schools. You'll note that Forsyth County has successfully addressed school choice and provides quality schools for all students. If Forsyth County can do it, why can't Guilford County? Forsyth County Schools is not a small country school district; it has almost 50,000 students. I can only conclude its the people and the district leadership that makes the difference. When can we get the same in Guilford County?

http://mts.admin.wsfcs.k12.nc.us/schools/index.html

In brief, middle school students attend school in a zone of the city, for example, the East Zone. In this zone, parents of students entering grades 6 though 8 get to "choose" their children's school from three different schools. Students can attend what tehy refer to as their residential school (neighborhood school), or they can choose to attend one of the other two schools within the zone on a space available basis. all three schools:

* Emphasize basic academic skills.
* Provide computers in classrooms and computer labs.
* Teach students individual responsibility and accountability.
* Stress character and self-discipline as keys to success.
* Encourage parents to become an active part of their child's education.

In addition, each school has a special theme designed to motivate students. In the case of East Zone, they are:

* East Forsyth - Multiple Intelligences
* Kernersville - Project Genesis
* Winston-Salem Preparatory Academy - Academic Academy (countywide magnet school)

Pretty good options, huh?

For high school students, they can attend their residential school or apply to attend anyother high school, if space is avilable. Students can also elect to attend one of several magnet schools.

Here is the district's overview statement:

The Board of Education has adopted a “Schools of Choice” plan which gives parents the opportunity to choose the best school for their child within eight elementary zones or six middle school zones. “Schools of Choice” was created to eliminate the worst effects of cross-county busing, to improve student performance through parental participation and to motivate students through different learning themes, which enhance the basic North Carolina Standard Course of Study at each school.

Anyone ready to move to Forsyth County yet?

David,

I am sorry, but I just am not as computer proficient as you. Please forgive my web ignorance. I'll try to do better.

Lets take Griers current model then.

Lots of Magnets.
Lest look at Weaver. 76% white. I would bet money that the other high performing magnets within other schools have similar ratios. But the minority numbers for the those school's can "LOOK GOOD".
At my daughters school Central its the same. The Mexicans hang with the Mexicans.The African Americans with the same and the whites hang in the IB program!

I BET "big" money that Aycock is the same. David please confirm.

But the minority numbers might look good? So problem solved right? Allen.

Stormy - I don't know how to do it either in blog comments - let me know if you figure it out. I was just sayin' because such article take up a lot of space.

Centralparent - For the most past... confirmation given.

While there can be no doubt the 'cliques' at Aycock are mainly race based, there is still a whole lot of interaction between my 6th grader Jesse and his Latino, Black, Asian, and even Muslim classmates. (Some of whom he has been schooled with since kindergarten). I hear about his encounters with new and different-from-him classmates all the time.

Just today he came home holding an ice bag on his eye. Seems he was invited to play basketball with a bunch of, (mainly black, says he, proudly) 7th graders after school and got hit hard with a pass of the ball.

He's wearing his almost-black eye like a crown.

What's your point?

The first line in response to 'centralparent' should have read "...For the most PART". Getting late, I guess.

By the way, where have all of the High Point/Jamestown "blogging groupies" (Barbara Ann's gracious term) gone?

David,
David,

I see you missed me.

I was wondering that myself. Where are all those bloggers today? I've been gone a lot myself.

Maybe they are busy planning their next big move. Probably getting more signatures for the big petitions.

It's been awful quiet. Guess no new strands to interest them.

Didn't meant to hit "David" twice - it is getting late - sorry.

I think most of the groupies post at the CB.

I also heard of five more families just this week that filled out private school applications, some starting at much younger ages. This is sad to hear.

Allen,

(WARNING THIS IS A LONG POST.)

I think you would be surprised to find that most people do agree that diversity is a very worthy goal. My favorite school to sub at is Florence Elementary. Do you know why? It is like a mini United Nations. We have children there from many different backgrounds and religions. I learn as much from them as they learn from me. What is so great in working with children is they don't have political agendas; they are honest. If they don't like you, you know it. If they do, you know it too.

It is amazing to watch them help each other when a child is new and doesn't know the language. We had one little girl from North Africa in 2nd grade. She bearly spoke any English, was very shy. The children would "fight" over who could help her - like a little doll. It was amazing to watch the process unfold. I saw her recently and she is in 4th grade, speaking well, smiling and doing great. It has to start in the younger grades. I look at it this way and read this today:

"We could learn a lot from crayons. Some are sharp, some are pretty and some are dull. Some have weird names, some all are different colors, but they all have to live in the same box."

That about sums it up best.

I am happy my only child has had a diverse education. She has many different kinds of friends. I grew up in Pittsburgh and went to Catholic school in the 60's. It was an all white school because that was how it was back then. Everyone in the school was Catholic. I didn't have the opportunity to learn about diversity in religion or color. We did have many ethnic European groups. I never knew a Jewish person until I was 18 years old, or a Mormon. When you get out in the real world, you sure learn a lot. I had these opportunities later in life and am thankful to have that.

What I see in the higher grades today is this as someone mentioned many of the kids hang with their own kind - the jocks with the jocks; nerds with nerds; kids that are bused in hang with kids they were bused in with. Kids in high school do belong to different clubs and play sports together, but many go home to their own little worlds. I doubt you see the kids being bused invited to the High Point Country Club for high tea and a round of golf. This IS the real world.

Can we all keep working at this? Sure we can but people have to want to. You can't FORCE people to change.

What no one seems to get is most people do want diversity. But I have been at this a long time and black and white people have said the want neighborhood schools. That is their first perference. They don't want to drive long distances to participate in after school activities. It certainly makes if very hard for poorer families. It's hard on families with two parents working and juggling schedules.

What else everyone seems to want are SAFE schools and at least a school that is performing "average". They don't want to be FORCED to go to a low performing school. They don't want to be the sacrificial lambs because of the past failings of the people in charge of education in this county. it is about being forced to a low performing school. Nowhere else is this being done to anyone in this county.

What has been extremely hurtful to the people of North High Point and Jamestown is to be accused of racism just because they want a safe, neighborhood school.

No, I don't think it is "just Dudley". But if the "powers that be" are so psyched on diversity then I was using this as a prime "example" only of where it needs to start. Otherwise, it really is hypocritical at best of the leaders.

Southwest Middle and Southwest High are already diverse schools.

To answer my own question "why always High Point"? We KNOW why. It's not about "education" for all. It is to save a dying inner city. The old timers of HP are in a panic. Now to top it off, Fantasia has put a face on the reality of the failings of our public school system to help some children.

And what has really, really upset people of North High Point and Jamestown is this. We may have not technically been redistricted for the past several years, but EVERY YEAR it is "take down the Christmas tree, and then fight some kind of forced redistricting." It feels like you ARE redistricted EVERY YEAR and actually for the past two years, lotto children were. So my point is this. If for the past two years we have had redistricting in the form of "theme schools" and now just the lottery portion is gone, then we should at least have TWO years of Map D for DONE and work toward stability and peace within our communities. The board's policy is redistricting every FOUR years. So we are TWO years into the last redistricting plan. It has been stressful for everyone, to say the least. We have lost many, many great parents to private school or they have moved. Children have lost their friends of many years. It has caused constant instability for hundreds of families. Life should not be this complicated.

I think if the School Board is to truly do the right thing and want peace, they need to give it a rest. They can still do as they wish, but at what cost? (and I don't mean money) It has certainly cost all of us, including the stress on this board and Terry Grier enough. They get paid for this or were elected and it comes with the territory, parents don't. I just think enough is enough for everyone concerned.

THE END.

It takes a village.

Allen,

My son can practically walk to High School A, but the School Board is looking at busing him to his 5th closest school, passing School A and hundreds of families who attend school A along the way.

Tell me - how is my story different from Brown vs. Board of Ed?

Or does your answer depend upon the race of my son?

The village is leaving town.

There is no more village.

The school board is seeing to that.

The village communities are being destroyed.

There could have been villages but they have been ripped apart.

See article in right hand op page of the High Point Enterprises. It says a lot for community pride, buy in a school.

We are only moving further away from that to the point of no return.

Bubba,

Hillary had it wrong. It only takes a village when the parents abdicate their responsibilities. The best chance for a good life for a child is two loving and nurturing parents.

Actually, Hillary was right. We all have a vested stake in the quality of our schools. If we neglect them, we pay in crime. unemployment and the cost of social services. We also suffer economically as a community.

Stormy,

I shall call you "HURRICANE" after that one. Amen to what you said. One or your shortest and wisest posts ever.

Bubba,

It takes parental involvement. It does not take MTV or unsupervised Internet Access to God only know what. It takes know where your kids are and who they are hanging with.

It takes sacrifice and hard work. Lots of prayer.

To even have a village, you need people in it. You need parents who take pride in their children, stay involved in their child's education and are involved in the community. The article today in the HPE said it best. Schools should be like churches within a community. They should not be overgrown with weeds. People should take pride in their schools. If kids are bused every which way across town, that is just about impossible for most parents in today's busy world to do. People need to feel like the have ownership in their school. That is not the case now after what has continued to take place in High Point. Communities are just being split up.

Here's a little example I want to share.

If you are holding a glass of water how much does that glass of water weigh?

20g, 100g 500g??

The weight does not matter. It depends on how long you try to hold it. If you hold it for a minute, that's not a problem. IF you hold it for an hour, you will have an ache in your arm. If you hold it for a day, you'll have to call an ambulance. In each case, it's the same weight, but the longer you hold it, the heavier it becomes.

That's how it is with the stress of the CONSTANT redistricting of High Point. People can deal with it only so long. As the burden becomes increasingly heavy, people choose to let go of the "glass" and move. Many are going private.

You lose the village that you needed. The same goes for the school board, the longer they keep at this, the burden becomes heavier.

Maybe it's time for them to finally listen to what people want let go of the glass; start fresh with a different approach. Try listening for a change. They didn't listen about the Choice Plan and here we are. Thousands (millions?)of dollars spent on a failed plan because they chose not to listen to facts, logic and reason. Wasted dollars spent on fuel. Put in an Arts magnet, tear out classrooms, put in a dance studio. Two years later move programs. How many kids for two years were on the wrong education path just to avoid being bused?

Tear down SCALES trailers. Bus kids to Greensboro. Now finally put SCALES back in High Point. Why didn't they just find a suitable place in High Point in the beginning.

Money in, money out. Money continually wasted. Money spent on all these so called "experts". Why is it that private schools can produce a much better product for thousands less than a public school?

All we want are SAFE schools where children can be educated to the best of their ability.

If sometimes they would just listen, so much of this waste of time, energy and money could be avoided. I had lunch with a very involved parent yesterday who said, "If they would just leave us alone and not use our kids to accomplish their political agendas, parents would willingly work together. We could have joint fundraisers and join each others PTA. We could all help each other."

For some, Andrews is the high school they went to. Parents would willingly pitch in where it's needed. But if their kids are FORCED to go to a low performing school which is on record with the highest number of arrests (and they did not cause to get this way) that is another story.

Fix the problem FIRST. All schools should be good or at least average. And above all they should be SAFE. Then people will come willingly.

Allen,

Teachers did not cause crime, unemployment and the need for social services. They are NOT social services. They are paid to teach, to educate the best they can. Now part of teaching, to me, is to be a good example, a mentor, a caring person in someone's life. The best teachers can certainly have great influence.

But because of all that is going on in our schools we are losing good teachers. Teachers are not given the support to teach in a classroom that is conducive to learning. No teacher can teach if their is constant disruption. They are burnt out.

We are losing good parents who volunteer and help all children in the system because of all that is happening. More and more are going to private schools or homeschooling.

It MUST start at home. We can list all the excuses, and causes we want. But by high school age the mold is set. It is hard to make changes in a young person by then.

You are right that society pays the price. But schools cannot solve all these problems. It is the problems of society rather coming into our schools and causing more issues to deal with.

There needs to be alternative schools and learning environments for kids who choose not to learn and constantly cause disruption in our public schools or break the law. You can only do so much. If any kid, with good or bad behavior, chooses not to learn, he won't. Where is teaching about responsbility and consequences, good or bad for one's own self? That in the end is the real world, learning how to function in an orderly society.

Barbara Ann:
I agree with much of what you have written. We do dump many broader societal problems into the schools' laps and say, "OK, you fix it."
I agree that more parents ought to be engaged in their children's education.
I agree that one advantage of a neighborhood school is a natural community connection.
I agree that teachers deal with too much grief and too little support.
Also, the issue of segregation wouldn't be so daunting if our neighborhoods weren't so segregated.
That said, I also believe we are losing our sense of a braoder community and crumbling as, David Hoggard noted, into a collection of fragmented "fiefdoms" (and gated communities) with no overarching civic identity. That's not healthy.
Now, don't get me wrong; I believe in strong, cohesive neighborhoods but there needs to be a larger, collective neighborhood as well.

I agree too.

We have many good parents and people in this large community. When called to task, they come forward. They go the extra mile. Look how our community helped out with Katrina victims. Look at what Urban Ministries does.

What the problem gets down to is people want to help WILLINGLY and reach out. They have done it before and they will continue to reach out. No one wants to be forced. No one wants taxation without representation. This has been the same throughout our history since the birth of this nation. People want a voice and rightly so. People don't want to be lied about and labeled "racists" simply because they prefer neighborhoods schools first; diversity as a secondary goal. Look around MOST of our schools. They are diverse.

Parents just don't want their own children to be used as pawns in some overall political, economic scheme to satisfy the true agendas of a few movers and shakers. They don't want the real motives covered up in some PR campaign. Parents just simply have had it with "other agendas" and won't tolerate it any longer.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion, Allen. Have a great weekend.

Allen,

My son can practically walk to High School A, but the School Board is looking at busing him to his 5th closest school, passing School A and hundreds of families who attend school A along the way.

Tell me - how is my story different from Brown vs. Board of Ed?

Or does your answer depend upon the race of my son?

I tried to ask this before, but I think it got lost.

She may rub many of us wrong in various ways, but Hillary's vision of a more caring and sensitive society is the one that I wish the community of High Point would embrace.

It sure was that way in my youth in the small community that I spent some years in. None of us were far away when reversals struck those around us. Our families were always there to help whether it was financial, healthwise, or otherwise, we could count on each other.

In our society we've distanced ourselves from the issues and problems that affect our communities. It's like what's in it for me and forget about anybody else.

I wonder if the author had been somebody else, a Tom Delay for example, if the message would have been embraced by the people that live in North High Point. Strong possibility it would have.

One thing I missed, Allen, in your last post is "neighborhoods so segregated". I can' related to that as our neighborhood is very diverse and we all get along great. We have black, white, Asian, hispanics, people from Sweden, many different religious backgrounds.

I do particularly like where we live, Bubba, as it is neighbors helping neighbors. That's how it was when I grew up too. It's too bad you haven't chosen to listen to a word I've said and continue to have the people of North High Point wrong. I read this today, "If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague."

I'll be looking for a new strand now that is of interest.

To all - have a nice weekend.

Allen, the time has come. When was the last time you set foot in SW Highschool? When have you last been to North High Point or Jamestown? I would wager it's been a long time. We're on board with you. You have the wrong idea. We're looking at getting our neighborhoods sacked by Dottie the Hun. You swallowed her propaganda campaign that she's doing it for diversity, and she is, but not for our school, which is diverse, but for hers. She has too many of what she doesn't want. We just happen to be on the Roman frontier and sackable, while you sitting down in the center of Rome pretending you know what's going on. This is our only sin. You swallowed the b.s. because you think you're getting some of your ya' ya's or guilt out from the way things are in this country and vicariously socking it to some rich white smug bastards who you think have it coming. Look at the facts, look at the numbers. You've been duped!!!!

Allen talking to HP = hitting head against a wall.
HP talking to Allen = hitting head against a wall.

Both together = waste of time.

Get the #@%* outta here.

The time has come where we need to take an honest look at what folks are indicating when they say that they want to have neighborhood schools. And I am not talking about the folks in predominantly white, middle to upper-middle class neighborhoods. I'm talking about the folks in our predominantly minority, lower socioeconomic neighborhoods. What it comes down to is this: there seems to be some idea that by mixing up the races and income-levels of our children, that the white, middle-class children will rub off on our African-American and immigrant, low-income children. Thus, the test scores of these subgroups would magically and dramatically improve.

There is an overwhelming amount of research that indicates that when schools, parents, and community members come together as partners that test scores increase and achievement gaps close between the races, regardless of the socioeconomic status of the students or the "diversity" represented in the schools. Mounds of research can be found on the websites of the U.S. Dept. of Education, the National PTA, the Education Trust and countless others.

The reality is that many Guilford County Schools administrators and several School Board members are utterly disconnected from the schools in which they serve. To understand the needs of the community, you have to actually go and visit that community...and more than once. If they would actually talk to the parents and staff of impacted schools, or listen and not give a politically correct brush-off answer when concerns are raised, they might hear what I have heard from them: what is being written as policy on paper in order to appear compliant with the law is not being carried out in the majority of our impacted schools.

Also, the schools that are successful in raising the achievement gaps by using routine assessments to make sure that each child is where they need to be are not being used as a model for similarly impacted schools that continue to fail to make adequate yearly progress. Go to the Guilford County Schools website and look at School Improvement plans. Compare Hunter Elementary's plan to Bessemer Elementary's. One is a well-written strategic plan to continue success, the other looks like it was written by a 3rd Grade student who needs tutoring with writing skills. It's not hard to figure out why one school is defying the myth that low-income students can't acheive and the other one doesn't. Even more disturbing, is that the latter plan was approved by the school system to send to the state as an actual strategy to improve the school!

So again, let's think about the impact that busing students and redistricting under the notion that they will learn better will have on the students and their families.

Allen, this is the first time anybody has ever used invective to indicate that I should leave their blog. I'm deeply offended. In any debate, this is usually a sign you're throwing in the towel or else something said hit too close to the bone (truth), so I leave with some regret for having spoken too frankly and offer apology.

People have had their varnish stripped off with this whole thing. You speak of compassion and "community" . You can't legislate /mandate either of these things, which is why they have value. You can't grab people by the scruff of the neck and slam there nose down into it, which is what's been done and you seem to be implying is appropriate.

Til the day the heads stop banging,

Allen,
I challenge you to go a few Title I neighborhood schools or the communities they serve, in both Greensboro and High Point, and ask those parents what they think of creating a more diverse mix.

John G. is ri