News-Record.com

I thought you said you were not going to keep saying the same thing over and over. You've already defended Deena's words and claims she was sadly misunderstood. Why the new big editorial--saying it again?--Oh, I know. It's Sunday. It must be in the print addition for more people to read.

I like your policy (JR's) of saying things only once. It would be easier for the public to swallow as well, because believe me, when you're so very wrong, I can take reading it only one time.

Deena is wrong and you know it. She's wrong for uttering the words and she chose those words carefully knowing full well that they would evoke the most press for her. She's wrong for bigger reasons though. She's wrong for continuing to sit on that school board. She's violated GC policy for her words and her constituents, if they followed her antics should also cry foul. I don't beleive that most of her constituents even follow what the school board does.

Reading these same miserable words from you again Allen is just like the movie Ground Hog Day, you're right about that.

Reflecting about MLK today, I wonder what he would say about all this. I don't think he would continue to make excuses for his race. I would even wager a guess that he would call for his race to stand up tall and be held accountable for their actions. I just can't see him blaming whites for the ills of an entire race.

I have a dream. I really do. It's that people like Deena admit that they fear the white race. It's funny to see that she has so much fear when 50% of her make-up is from the feared white man. She should seek counseling for her own dilemmas before she tries to "help her people". And I have a dream that she has a DNA analysis, so she can admit to herself that "her people" are blacks AND the whites.

Like most Democrats, Hayes is all about the money and the power.
Political power gives her money and the ability to make more money. Her statements cater to the black voter base, as if to say, "See, I'm fighting for YOU!"
The true test of appropriateness in this case is to ask: If these words were spoken by a white person referring to blacks, would they be tolerated?

She is definitely not a lone radical.

She is well and trully in bed with Skip Alston.

I'm not sure why white parents are so upset: Deena Hayes, so far as I can tell, is arguing that high-achieving white students shouldn't be bused to low-achieving black schools in order to conceal disparities in educational achievement ("the shell game"). Isn't that what white parents (occasionally those from High Point?) are constantly telling Allen on this blog?

Allen, who either supports the "diversity mirage" he disparages in this column or believes that white students should be bused outside of magnet programs and put in the general populations of the Lincolns, Wileys, etc., is the one who ought to be offended by her comments, no? (If the latter, I suppose, then he need not be offended.)

Allen is totally correct in his assessment of white parents' sense of themselves as, in aggregate racial terms, superior parents to black parents. What is arguable is whether they actually are.

Playing devil's advocate, a case can be made that Bill Spaulding is, given his child's participation in VSN, probably a superior parent--and hence a superior person, given that raising children is one of the most important things one can do--to most of the parents of general population students at (what?) Lincoln. That is to say, his apology is quite plausibly a matter of manners and not of beliefs.

Unless educational achievement is solely a matter of intellectual capacity, then the racial disparity in educational achievement can be explained only by a difference in the way students are treated inside or outside the schools. White parents tend, I think, to look outside: to believe that, relative to their involvement in their child's education, black parents (especially given the preponderance of single-parent households) do a worse job of raising their children to learn, to respect education, etc. PTA attendance and school volunteerism supports their view. Black parents tend, I think, to hold the schools responsible.

Lastly, Deena Hayes is both right and wrong. There's nothing "exploitative" about magnet programs. In fact, the opposite is true, since magnet parents, who volunteer much more, offer opportunities to non-magnet students (money, tutoring, library help, AR facilitation, fall festivals, etc.). She's right in her view of how magnet parents view the students and parents of the non-magnet population: as a cross to be borne, a separate group whose AYP scores don't really bear on "their" school, etc.

Brian, I agree with you. In one way Deena Hayes is right. Its a shell game. Magnet schools and bussing are used by GCS to hide away dis-advantaged children. Then they dont get pressure to have to educate them and its all hidden away in the diversity. There are many schools within a schools in this county. Go and look at the statistics of poor children in a farly sucessful school.

Although I agree with her on that point I still dont understand what Allen agrees with her on? He says "Right question, wrong words". What question Allen?

I must admit I don't understand why people are giving Allen a hard time for putting his Deena editorial in the print edition, thus reaching 100k people. The previous one was only on the blog thus reaching a maybe what, twenty people?

People may have forgot that this is a milestone. The prvious N&R modus is to not print anything editorially in the least bit controversial about GCS if it can be avoided. (or at least equivocate to the point where the editorials had no effectiveness at all- ie: "he is innovative- remember middle and early colleges", which if I hear one more time I may have to harm myself.)

Even though Allen had to be dragged kicking and screaming to do this and the equivocative function is still evident , it can't be denied that he did do it and he actually hinted that it was irresponsible perhaps, what Deena said-that it may not be exactly what she said that is worrisome, but that the fact that she would lack in judgement enough to know that what she said would probably be inflammatory, divisive and subject to mis-interpretation such that a responsible leader would not have said it.

Let's give the man his due.

Allen,

The VSN program is not diverse. Given that do you support it?

The problem I have with Deena's remarks is that they did nothing to advance education in Guilford County. Her implication is clear, white people are holding back black children from reaching their potential. It this was so, the schools that have virtually all black staff and students should be thriving. I am sorry to say that is not the case. Question? How many slave owners were there in Guilford County? Does she think it is fair to hold current white citizens accountable for the sins and omissions of their forefathers and foremothers?

Hello folks. Look at my website blog entry for Jan. 15, click on my name below to take you directly to my website. Let's use her remarks as an opportunity for all of us to refocus and redouble our efforts to put children first.

E.C. Huey

Very well said Joe. It had nothing to do with education. So back to my question No.1 to Allen.
Allen, in the name of a good old fashioned debate and good dialogue what was Deenas question that you say was right?

One more thing please dont forget question No.2. Do you agree with this non-diverse VSN program?

Truth:

You are wrong. The VSN program IS diverse; I believe it's as diverse as the AIG, IB & Early College programs as a whole. The latter programs mentioned share a black population of about 17%, give or take, and there has been no evidence shown that the VSN program is significantly any different. (source: NCDPI Reports and Statistics; http://www.ncpublicschools.org/data/reports)

Regardless of the numbers, however, the point is moot! The VSN program should have nothing to do with race, wealth, or anything besides need - period. On this issue, unlike most, the ONLY consideration should be the educational needs of our brightest students. As the VSN program addresses ONLY students whose full potential cannot be met at their "home schools", the needs of any particular sub-class of students are irrelevant to this discussion. It is a simple fact that, by treating all groups the same - equally addressing the needs of ALL students, we MUST teach some students differently.

Last, as Hayes' responsibility as a BOE member is to advocate for ALL students, she is wrong to threaten to "vote to disband this program right now" when the program - regardless of where it's housed - DOES, in fact, address the needs of these students far better than any viable alternative proposed. Hayes' threatened vote could have NO BASIS in fact other than her own racial prejudice. She is most certainly not fulfilling her obligation to the equal education of all students.

Michael Pope

17% African American is not diverse enough according to Dot Kearns, Allen Johnson and Co. Its all about race for these folks.

The program is probably in danger.

Michael,

There is an interesting statistic in Dr. Zhang's presentation on 1/0/06 is that reflects on the need to equally address the needs of all students.

In the student performance section (http://www.gcsnc.com/boe/2007/1_9/ayp_abc_presentation.pdf pp.34-35), Dr. Zhang shows that efforts to bring students up to a higher level in reading and math are countered by students at the higher level dropping back to a lower level (especially in math).

It looks like a case of 10 steps forward and 9 steps back.

There's a difference between "not diverse enough according to Dot Kearns, Allen Johnson & Co." and "not diverse", as you stated.

The Early College is administered by Guilford College, not GCS. The 17% is what it is. I wonder, however, whether Hayes & Co. would express their collective shock & horror if the 17% referred to the white population of the program.

If you can forgive my coarse analogy, let's suppose that, after identifying our mentally challenged students, we find that, gasp!, the group is not racially diverse enough for some BOE member's satisfaction. Do we, then, admit other students who are not mentally challenged to "balance" the group? Of course not! The same applies in this situation; there is no difference.

Michael Pope

John,

I'm sure I don't have Dr. Zhang's credentials, and thank God I don't have his patience, but I could have told you that without perusing his absolutely riveting 45-page report. It's called "dumbing down", and, I'm willing to bet you that GCS wrote the book Dr. Zhang studied!

In this instance, those 9 steps backwards would be at the EXPENSE of the very students the VSN program is supposed to help.

Michael Pope

Michael,

Again, the VSN students are not the only bright students in this system. All of our high achievers (VSN students and those students who qualify for VSN but choose to stay at their neighborhood school, and strong AL students in general) fall into this category.

And . . . ?

If someone choosed NOT to participate, how does that affect the program for the students who do? It shouldn't!

Strong AL students in general do get out-of-class attention. In our experience, however, that attention was not sufficient. The AL program is often disruptive to the "regular classroom".

(chooseS . . . dammit!)

Numbers/Michael,

Dr. Zhang's report doesn't identify any level of AL. It is specifically level 1,2,3, and 4 (which may correspond to some level of AL at levels 3 & 4).

What his graph shows is that while some level 1,2 & 3 students move up to level 2,3, and 4 each year, a substantial number of the 3 & 4's move down to levels 2 & 3. In math last year, there was a net downward trend.

Numbers,

In 2006/07 there were only about 50 eligible VSN students who chose not to attend the Academy at Lincoln (by my recollection).

John,

Do you have the racial make-up of those eligible students?

Allen, what are your comments to all this and any chance of answering my questions 1 and 2 (see above).

Could someone please tell me who Paid the Southwest and Andrews Bands to March in the MLK parade in High Point?????????

I heard it was $1500 a piece.

Could it have been the United Way of High Point?????????

Surely it was not GCS.

Michael,

Unfortunately, no.

I imagine those numbers would be very useful to this topic, though, again, NOT really germane to the existence of and management of the VSN program.

Allen, perhaps some of your reporters can get this info!?

How many students are in VSN at Lincoln. If 50 chose not to attend, what percentage is that? We certainly don't need to split a program for 50 kids, which would be an average of 8 per grade level. I personally know 4 kids that qualify but never went to Wiley or Lincoln- all are current 8th graders.

Mr. Pope,

I appreciate your analogy of diversify the "mentally challenged" classes. I understand it and agree. BUT, we are dealing with the GC BOE. THEY want everything to be diverse. Take for example SWH, a school that was fine. It made AYP's, etc. BUT it supposedly wasn't diverse enough and WHAMMOOOOO!--diversity was forced upon it.

Also, if you remember back when the changes started for the entire AL program. Remember how students could get services in 3rd grade..now it's fourth...well, if you look at transcripts of those discussions, it was all about RACE. The BOE felt that there was not enough blacks in AL as a whole, therefore, they searched and found a new test that would perhaps allow more blacks to enter the program.

I don't know if you have a middle-schooler, but the entire AL program there has been "re-vamped" too. They have "changed" the program to allow for MORE students to call themselves "AL". If you ask me, there is no "AL" in middle school unless you go the Lincoln route.

By point, the BOE wants ALL programs to be diverse. Deena Hayes will see to it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I don't want programs diverse, I just don't want programs watered-down so that we can claim diversity.

Look at the #1 core value of our system: DIVERSITY

I'm sorry to tell you this Mr. Pope, but eventually "diversity" quotes will make their way into every program--even the mentally challenged ones. That's what Deena wants. And from what I see, Deena always gets her way.

Debora,

A decision on the creation of a "Western" VSN has been deferred until at least the 2009/10 school year. See the VSN page on The Academy at Lincoln's site to see the proposals presented to split the program.

At the start of 2006/07, I believe that there were 273 kids enrolled in the Academy at Lincoln 4-8 grade VSN program out of 327 eligible students. That number is now down somewhat due to some students leaving the program. 54 eligible students chose not to attend.

Out of curiosity, of the four students that you know of that qualify a) were they in fact tested and found eligible and declined to participate and b) why didn't they participate?

Thanks!

Michael,

You said, "On this issue, unlike most, the ONLY consideration should be the educational needs of our brightest students. As the VSN program addresses ONLY students whose full potential cannot be met at their “home schools”, the needs of any particular sub-class of students are irrelevant to this discussion. "

My point is that there are plenty of other of our brightest students who are NOT in the VSN program. It's not just YOUR students whose full potential is not being met.

Diversity for all:

I agree with you 100%!! Your comments as regards the "dumbing down" of the AL program illustrate my point exactly. The essence of the program and the oath taken by each of the BOE members prohibit them from voting on the program on race & other bases, real or perceived. It should be purely about the education needs of the very special students!

Unfortunately, I must agree with you as to the eventual outcome of my "mentally challenged students" analogy; THAT is what I fear is happening to the VSN program now. It is slowly being diluted and destroyed. The other members of the BOE MUST stop pandering to Deena and her ilk. She is, in my opinion, very harmful to the quality of education here. She is destructive in many ways, and she is NOT acting as an advocate for all the students' interests. Her actions are most certainly NOT in keeping with her oath. Why, then, is the conduct permitted???

Michael Pope

I can name at least 10 kids who qualified for VSN but chose to stay at their home school. I don't know other's reasons but for us it was a matter of not being fully aware of what the program involved.... Still now, you hear very little about what actually goes on there. Also, to me it seemed a scam. With Guilford County having so many "magnet" choices, I really thought it was just a ploy to get more higher achieving students to a low performing school. That just seems to be the "MO" of this system. From what I hear from VSN parents now, it does sound like a good program but I still wonder, why is it placed in a low performing school? To me, that still makes me question the motives of the school board. Also, I wonder why they keep trying to "mess" with a good thing. If it's so good, why make changes? I honestly think they want to make a "VSN" in High Point, to do the same thing: essentially busing by choice to a school that needs higher achievers. First HP had a lottery, it didn't work...then redistricting...that didn't work. So now they're on to Plan C, which is to get more kids to HP. Still, they're avoiding the problem. Andrews is still empty and Southwest is busting at the seems. The board cannot be trusted. If VSN is working, leave it alone.

Numbersgame:

We're on the same page. I certainly agree that there are other AL students whose needs are not currently being met. I won't presume to comment on why any parent or student chooses not to participate in the VSN program as I understand there are many situations which make participation not desirable, difficult, or even impossible for some families. Still, if an eligible student's potential is not being met at this point, it is, in part, due to his parents' / that student's choice. The BOE has, in part, already addressed that need and offered a solution or improvement to that need. It (the BOE) cannot force participation in the VSN program.

This topic, as I understand it, focuses solely on the VSN program, its merits and challenges, and the BOE's response to it.

Michael Pope

Mr. Pope,

That is the ZILLION dollar question... Please post it here should you stumble across the answer.

I've been watching this board for a long time now and again, I hate to be the one to say it but diverstiy quotas are the wave of the future. Somehow Deena and other county officials have brainwashed the BOE that if a program is not diverse, then it cannot be effective. Of course to refute this, and be white, is the equation for diseaster, because you will no doubt be labeled a racist. It's a damned if you do and damned if you don't MESS!

You see Mr. Pope, I live in High Point. I have argued this "diversity isn't the answer to educational woes" arguement for a long time now. I've been called a racist, rich, whinney, etc...non of which are true. BUT to live in Guilford county + advocate for a good program = Racist. You might as well join the KKK Mr. Pope, because that's what they'll make you out to be.

Sorry I'm late getting back to your questions and comments. I'll take each, one at a time.
I'm glad to see the discussion shift more to the VSN program and away from personalities and the side issue of "slaves" and "slave masters."
You're making some good observations.
On why I also addressed this topic in an earlier post AND my Sunday column, I hadn't originally planned to.
But the story took on a life and of its own and attracted much broader interest than I had expected (the AP and TV picked it up, for instance).
I have done this before, because the print and online audiences tend to be different.
Also, if you'll read closely, the post and the column are different, though not dramatically so. The column contains more quotes from an interview with Hayes and makes some points the earlier post didn't.

Allen, now that you are "back", I guess I will be getting an answer to my questions then?

Of the 4 that I know that chose not to go to VSN, the reasons were different, but included liking neighborhood schools, length of bus ride, and location (how far it was from home-hard to volunteer etc). All qualified in 2nd grade when the Otis Lennon test was used. In addition our elementary school is great.

I think the AL program should be revised in elem. school, as the kids are smart enought to see it is 'more' work, and most look at it as a punishment for being smart. They have to do regular work and AL work. They miss time in regular class to go to AL, yet have to make that work up. The teachers don't always co-ordinate the time frames.

As a parent I think that our elem. AL teachers gave challenging work and a different slant on the work, but it was still 'more' work. My child is strong AL and I have told him many times that being 'AL' doesn't mean he is smarter or better, just that he is fortunate that he often learns at a faster pace. His question in middle school is, why do they cover the same thing, yet he has to go faster. His math book is the same, his projects the same, his grading epectations are higher in some cases. AL in middle school is a joke. Most teachers don't take the time to make the classes different. I have heard teachers say those kids are smart enought to 'get it' so she didn't have to work as hard! WHAT!!! If anything she should be working harder to challenge them with some out of box thinking.

Lord save us from mediocrity!

Debora,

It's a shame that you cannot allow your child to feel "smarter". It's okay to be smarter and it will build his confidence to go on in life being "smarter". Of course I agree with telling him that does not make him "better" but it's a shame that we now cannot encourage our kids to be "smarter". It's another one of Guilford county's tactics to make us feel badly for having smart kids. Debora, if your child is smarter than by all means let him know it! He'll see his score compared to other kids everytime he's tested! He'll see it on the SAT's, ACT's and ALL tests! THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH TELLING HIM HE'S SMARTER! I know what's next, we won't feel comfortable telling our kids they're white..we'll just say, "oh, well honey, you're just "lighter" than Tyrone".

Mr. Pope et al VSN parents,

There have been many students who have qualified for the VSN program in High Point. Most did not want to put their children on a long bus ride to an area they were not familiar with. Many of these same parents would have put their children in a VSN program if it was in High Point. The driving time would be less because of less traffic.

Some of these same students are now excelling at the Early College at Guilford.

Someone mentioned on the Chalkboard that most of the VSN students come from the NW area. NW does not have an EXCLUSIVE on smart kids. We have many advanced students throughout the entire district whose needs are not being met. There is continual dummying down and catoring to the "common denominator" to get the numbers "right" and meet the demands of NCLB laws.

I agree with some of the other comments here due to past trends in GCS. If a program or a particular is not "diverse enough" to suit Deena and friends beware of things to come. Programs become weaker. Schools become "equal"; equal in failing test scores and severe discipline problems. It doesn't look good to have one school look so much better than another especially if it is too "white" in the eyes certain BOE members and community interest groups. 17% is definitely not diverse enough. SW was quite a diverse school (with ideal numbers in fact) prior to the Choice Plan and Map C contrary to the opposite picture some people tried to paint.

Welcome to our world in High Point.

Correction: "lowest common demoninator"

Welcome,

Maps showing the distibution of VSN eligible kids are (were) available at the Lincoln website under the VSN tab. What's lacking is a map showing the distribution of ALL AL kids by level (Moderate, Strong, Very Strong). Since VSN necessarily pulls from the Strong Needs group, the most cost effective location(s) would be central to highest concentration(s) of potential students.

I don't think that anyone has said that there should not be a High Point program (or additional programs elsewhere) as long as there are sufficient students to attend and sufficient AL certified teachers to teach. However, you need to insure that the criteria are not relaxed just to 'make the numbers' and the academic rigor of the program jeopardized.

The same ("most did not want ...") could be said for parents in any area of the county. But some parents ARE willing to send their kids off to an unfamiliar school, away from neighborhood friends, on a long bus ride, accepting the fact that participation in school events may be difficult, in the hope that they will receive the services that GCS says that they require.

Debora,

The Plan for Advanced Learners (PAL) is reviewed and updated every three years. It was last reviewed in June 2004 and modified in April 2005 to eliminate second grade testing and defer third grade AL services until the second semester (third grade VSN services were eliminated). At the 1/9 BOE meeting, Dr. Routh pointed out that the PAL is due for review this year and the team to perform the review is being (or has been assembled). Mr. Quick is to be the BOE representative on this team. Now's the time to advocate for any changes you feel need to be made.

JWQ,
I have already started that process. I advocate all the time. I will be emailing Ann Burr as well as Amos. I hope that they get some parents from all over to speak to the plus and minuses of the program.

To: It's cool to be smart!
My child knows he is smart, but when they are young (not now) many times AL got a bad rap for being snobs etc. As you said, smart does not equate with 'better'-- he is lucky to have the ability to learn and do well, now where is that motivation lurking :)

Welcome to Our World:

I understand and appreciate the long driving distance from High Point, and it sucks. I wish the VSN program were closer to our home, too. In our situation, my daughter faces 2 1/2 - 3 hours on the bus daily. That, too, sucks. In a perfect world, it would located smack dab in the center of the county.

Still, of the 54 students who decided not to participate in the VSN program, how many were from High Point? Even if all were from High Point, and I know that isn't the case, there is no reasonable & fair justification to move the program to High Point OR to split it, thereby diluting it and undermining its efficacy. As ours is a county-wide school system, the location of the VSN program must be managed in a manner that's best for the majority of the county's students. There's only so much money, space & AL certified teachers . . . No offense intended, believe me, but c'est la vie.

As for your comment that "17% is definitely not diverse enough", again, I say that, in this program, the numbers are what they are - period. "Diverse enough" is not a description to be used to describe a group which isn't, ostensibly, chosen by diversity measuring sticks. There should be no management of the number; it should be based on testing only. No race, no wealth, no location, no nothing but book smarts. Enough "enough"!

Consider this, all: if the black population of the VSN program is currently appr. 17%, in line with the AIG, IB & Early College programs, and if ALL the 54 students who decided not to participate were black, and if all those students currently participated in the VSN program, the black population would be appr. 29%. Even this number would not mirror the community at large, as the total black population of GCS is 40.7%.

Again, I say, there should be no "enough" here! Neither race nor any other measure beyond academic proficiency must be used to populate this program. To do so would be a futile endeavor.

Michael Pope

Welcome to Our World-

I live (unfortunately) in High Point. My child is in the VSN program. If I could be assured that a program in High Point was equal to the one at Lincoln, and that the class size wouldn't decrease, OK, we'd go. Right now, there are not enough students to split the program and duplicate the services. To maintain the same numbers, the standards would be lowered.

I NEVER said the smart kids were in the NW region. If you look at a scatter plot (as I have) of the participants in the program, there is a greater concentration of children located north and west of downtown Greensboro. The bus ride from the far reaches of NW Guilford County are no different than the bus rides from High Point. It's a CHOICE to send your child.

As for High Point---it's an AWFUL place to live and raise children.

Michael,

I have heard a member of the school board state that the EOG tests are biased against the poor minority children and written with an advantage given to the middle class white student.

I don't buy this, but it has been said.......

As for High Point---it's an AWFUL place to live and raise children.

***************

Then leave. No one is forcing you to live here. We've got an airport, train depot and two interstate highways right here in Guilford County - take your pick.

NC Transplant,

I would be interested in learning why you feel that High Point is an AWFUL place to live and raise children. What makes it so?

Also, where did you come here from, and what made it better than High Point?

Some of the discussion here on the VSN program is interesting and ties in somewhat to the David Brooks column that appears today in this newspaper. The title of the column is "America's achievement-oriented values run deep".

In his column, Mr. Brooks says "Two great themes run through American history...achievement and equality. These are often in tension because when you leave unequally endowed people free to achieve, you get unequal results."

He goes on to say "Though Lipset never quite said it this way, the clear message from his writings is that when achievement and equality clash in America, achievement wins. Or to be more precise, the achievement ethos reshapes the definiton of equality. When Americans use the word "equality", they really mean "fair opportunity".

So, is it not clear with this discussion that the VSN program should be about an "achievement-orientation" with everyone having a "fair opportunity" to participate, not a mandated equality? Otherwise, the VSN program will become a vacant shell, in the same manner that AP courses are really not advanced at all, and CP courses really have nothing to do with college preparation. Hopefully, Mr. Brooks is right about the fabric of America being one where achievement wins.

Mr. Pope,

I totally agree that there should be "not enough" here. The VSN program should be strong on its own merit based on intelligence and achivement only.

I support neighborhood schools where SW also had "enough" diversity before all the various means of redistricting. The redistricting solved nothing. Schools are more overcrowded than ever; scores are down; violence is up.

I am just saying that for people who make decisions for GCS there is a "not enough" when it comes to diversity. Unfortunately, with the current demographics of the public school population it will never be "diverse enough" to make them happy.

The achievement gap can be superficially lowered. You simply take the cream of the crop and put them in a magnet program or Early College program, bus a few more students around to fix the numbers and "voila" the gap has been lowered. You have satisfied the scores for NCLB.

I predict, as others have stated, that you will see a weakened VSN program or the disappearance of same like other programs in this county seem to come and go.

Transplant,

You sound like you need a beer/glass of wine. I’ve found that bourbon works quite well for me when the GCS/BOE frustrates me. I can sense your frustration. Let’s see; after I moved to High Point, they came up with the HP choice plan, which sounded like a good idea but the more I looked into it the more it seemed like an under funded redistricting mandate where only kids at one school were routinely refused their choice. When I said I didn’t think it was a good idea, people (the press and various persons in political positions) stated that I, and others who couldn’t grasp the nebulous merits of the plan were racists. Thankfully, saner heads prevailed and the choice plan was scrapped but not before large amounts of tax payer money were wasted. When I said why couldn’t we have neighborhood schools and allow students to apply to any magnet program in Guilford County, I was told that if you want neighborhood schools you are a segregationist and yep you guessed it, a racist. Families left the school system to the point where the goal of the redistricting has not been achieved and more money wasted. Not to mention that the BOE pulled the now infamous Map C whatever out on Tuesday when there was no mention of this scenario during a BOE meeting on Monday. I strongly believe in quality schools and have always supported school bonds in whatever district I have lived in, but I must say when the BOE takes money designated for improving/renovating/new construction and siphons the money off for untested programs (cooking academy, health care academy, entertainment academy) of dubious worth and there is no accountability other than to not vote for the next school bond, it is frustrating. To top it all off, you send your child to a magnet program at a diverse school; and your kid is compared to a “slave master” by a BOE member. Yes its frustrating Transplant. However, I have several solutions for you. You don’t have to go to the airport, train depot, or either Interstate, just move into Greensboro city limits and your child goes to a neighborhood school (few exceptions here so be careful) or you could saunter up Hwy 68 and put down roots in the Northwest district. You see, the political base in High Point wants to be treated and wants its’ citizens to be treated differently than the rest of the county. Heck they even lure businesses from Greensboro, which shows you the kind of regional spirit they have. Frustration is, I pay High Point City taxes but don’t receive all of the services I pay for. But take heart Transplant; don’t let Just Saying run you off. If you have a vision that where you live can be made a better place then it is your right to say you don’t like what you see and it can be better. Don’t give up on your ideas and passions that where you live doesn’t have to be … “because that’s the way we’ve always done it”… mentality. People who are passionate about their community are always welcome in my neighborhood. I know I will keep fighting to make my surroundings a better place to live. Cheers!

Biotekboy

as another nc transplant, would be glad to take the first plane out. Problem is, no matter what BOE members, city people, realtors, etc say my house won't sell. Three years old. Only negative respone is not interested in this district. We are one of the lucky to redistricted from Southwest to Andrews. I wish GSC would use the raise we gave them when we pulled all three kids out of public and went private to do some good.

So, the BOE has a two day Winter Retreat (which will not be televised (will Jennifer/Morgan cover it?) this weekend (I notice that there are no materials posted yet) and another meeting on the 25th.

Any conjectures as to what the main topics will be?

jwg,

I, too, have been regularly checking the GCS website for those retreat materials.

I'm sure Jennifer and Morgan will let us know as soon as they're available.

It should be interesting.

3 years ago at the January retreat the HP Choice Plan was first publicly unveiled. And later Kris Cooke led a lively discussion involving French Fries.

It should be a lot of fun!

(Don't expect any discussions on education, however)

No answers from Allen yet on my questions. Thats bad for the VSN program. Allen and the N+R have a lot of influence and they were strong cheerleaders of the High Point Redistricting. The problem is that the diversity for you but not for me plan had the reverse effect and the schools are now more segregated now than ever.

THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU TOO!

Be careful VSN parents. I smell something.

Quest,

The "Western" VSN proposal also first surfaced at the 9/23-24 retreat.

Allen,

I, too, think it's past time for your reply to posted questions. Your recent column (all but) supports Hayes and her comments. The least you could do is clarify your position while the iron is hot; the absence of your timely reply is certainly conspicuous. Again, in what way, specifically regarding the VSN program, do you agree with Hayes? And, do you support the VSN program as it is now?

All,

Will the individual BOE members reply to specific questions asked of them through this forum? (I'll gladly copy their email addresses to make it easier for them.)

I'd like to know . . .

WHY will a more diverse VSN program automatically be a better VSN program?

HOW does the BOE intend to make the VSN program more diverse without lowering its standards or manipulating the data?

Allen wrote, "Saddest of all is that this discussion probably won't go any further. Or deeper. . . . In the best of worlds, this would be the beginning of a conversation, not the end. Hayes' concern about VSN merits earnest examination and dialogue. Some say we talk too much about race around here — that we revisit the same tired issues over and over. But maybe the conversation (such as it is) keeps coming up over and over because it's typically so lame and superficial."

I, for one, am more than willing to discuss the subject further. And deeper. Let's begin the dialogue already. Perhaps we revisit the same tired issues over and over because, when one party carelessly throws unfounded accusations toward another, he or she simply stops debating. No substance. No putting your money where your pie holes are.

Now THAT'S lame and superficial!

Michael Pope

Well said Michael.
I just spotted these interesting stats on another blog so I thought I would copy and paste for one of Dr.Grier's best friends Allen Johnson.

Year # of Low performing schools in GCS
02-03 0
03-04 0
04-05 2
05-06 8 (more than any school district in the state!)

Keep on truckin Allen. He's doing a great job!

I think there's more than enough talented & creative people in this town to come up with some fantastic solutions to problems we face WITHOUT flushing what IS working!

An idea or two to get the ball rolling:

1. Before the retreat . . .
Why not gather the facts & concerns and conduct a series of smallish meetings between individual BOE members and concerned citizens, some time for real discussion & honest debate on the program?

Maybe we should interview some students, in & out of VSN, to find their concerns & suggestions.

After copying the conversations of each of the meetings to the BOE for review, they could have a knowledgeable and, hopefully, more productive retreat!

2. Free, underutilized resources at our disposal . . .
Why can't we utilize the strengths of all our AIG (and VSN) students to address some of the problems we face? Maybe ask them or require them to volunteer at each of their schools to help with homework, provide free tutoring, etc.
We could have an alternating schedule so there's always a few students, parents and/or teachers available to those in need. Our young experts, guided by a few passionate teachers, could greatly benefit the entire GCS community in all areas of instruction - core subjects, languages, art, music, etc. I have no doubt that we would easily find a bevy of businesses to provide after-school snacks and other "incentives" to get the students there.

Michael Pope

Allen writes:

"A positive side effect is that Hayes makes other African American school board members more effective by making them, by comparison, appear more moderate. For example, when she makes volatile statements Amos Quick, who might someday be chairman, doesn't have to."

But he doesn't say whether this applies to Billy Yow, too. Does it?

Wouldn't it be better if everyone conducted themselves with some LCD of decorum?

Truth,

I'd like to add to your numbers. Not only did Guilford County have the distinction of having the greatest number of low performing schools in the state in 2005-2006, but GCS ALSO had the greatest number of low performing schools in the state in 2004-2005!

Grier took the crown in 2004 and has kept it! I wonder what the 2006-2007 results will bring!

Truth,

Admittedly Dr. Griers tenure has, by most parameters, been a miserable failure, you forget he is innovative-remember early and middle colleges.

Allen,

What was "the right question" to which you are referring?

Are you going to answer the other questions that were posed to you by others?

Truth,

To answer your questions...I don't know.

I have emailed Deena to ask her how I should respond and I have not heard back from her. I think she's busy securing black contractors for Eastern.

As soon as I know how to respond...I will. Until then, keep up the dialogue. It's good stuff.

To all:

None of us has a big enough magic wand to make every program in every school (academic, athletic, extracurricular) match the current demographics in Guilford County, not to mention that each school's statistics change yearly. That would be lots of swings of the wand.

I understand deep-seated, long held frustrations with the public schools by poor or minority citizens, when for so many years their children were basically written off. That was and is reprehensible. Yet it seems to me equally reprehensible to take our most academically capable students and either water down their program to meet some other sociological, political or other need or write them off because "they're smart enough to get it regardless."

What saddens me the most about this repetitious spiral of a conversation is that it ignores a very important fact. While we're still acting as if our black, hispanic, white children are in competition with one another, or evalutating the "competition" between Guilford and other like counties in NC, the real issue disappears. Our children are or will be in competition with students from Germany, Japan, India, Singapore, etc., from now on. And getting excited about small bumps up or down in the NC minimal standard tests, tests which good students in other countries would find pitiful and demeaning, takes our eyes off the true issue. Trying to make our schools be all things for all people ends up making them be almost nothing for any.

It's a hard and big world out there, and I hope against hope that my children--both of whom are AL, one a VSN at Lincoln--will be truly prepared for the struggles they will face after their years in GCS. I worry even more for the students who did not head off to school with the same starting place as my two. We all are too accepting of mediocrity and the trend in education away from insisting that all children read well, write and speak effectively and do math and science at an international level.

If our children don't master a much higher level of academic achievement than we can now claim they are doing, they will all be slaves of some sort to someone. And that would make what Deena refered to (and implied) pale in comparison.

Jack Kraemer

The "right question" I was referring to was how the VSN program fits into the overall fabric of the school.

If it is a silo, totally separate and apart, what's the point of placing it at Lincoln at all?

Also, why aren't more black kids in such programs? Either you accept that they aren't as smart (which I categorically dismiss), or something else is happening.

I submit that "something else" probably is a lot of things:

1. A lack in some cases of parental awareness and encouragement.
2. A fear of being separated from friends.
3. Peer pressure not to "act white" in some cases.
4. A lack of access to the kinds of home-basedf enrichment activities (travel, tutors, etc.) that affluence brings.

5. The distractions and disadvantages of poverty.

Someone quoted David Brooks' column Tuesday about the tension between achievement and equality in America.

In paraphrasing sociologist Seymour Martin Lipset Brooks notes: "These are often in tension because when you leave unequally endowed people free to achieve, you get unequal results."

Brooks goes on to write that the vast majority of Americans believe that you can and should succeed in this country on your abilities and hard work --that individuals should take more responsibility for providing for themselves."

Yet, an important asterisk ought to be attached to that sentiment, Brooks writes. "When Americans use the word 'equality' they really mean 'fair opportunity.'"

Are our schools providing a "fair opportunity" in the VSN program?

I don't know the answer yet, but I think that issue is germane to Deena Hayes' statement. And it demands a closer look.

Very well put, Jack!

I'm guessing you've read Tom Friedman's excellent and thought-provoking "The World Is Flat". I like the way he puts it, "I love America. I think it's the best country in the world. But I also think we're not tending to our sauce." In an interview about his book, Friedman spoke of an executive who told him, "The entitlement we need to get rid of is our sense of entitlement."

If only we all would heed the warning.

Michael Pope

Allen,

Do you believe that a "fair opportunity" is being offered in the AP, IB and Early College programs? Should they be included in the study as well?

As for Jack's point, I agree fully. It's important to tap ALL of our brainpower to stay competitive as a nation, not just some of it.

I don't see why not.

Allen,

Sorry, you confused me (I've got a VSN kid and if you don't be specific, you get in trouble. Tell him to put on his shoes & socks & you get socks on over shoes. "That's the order you said!").

Is "I don't see why not" in response to "Are AP/IB/GC fair" or "include them in the study"?

I just saw on CNN that America is making great strides in cancer research. For the 2nd year in a row, we have reported fewer cancer deaths.

They also said that black males still have a 38% higher death rate from cancer than white males. Black women, 18%.

Is there anything Guilford County Schools can do about this? They seem to want to tackle all the unfairness in our society.

Allen,

Surely you oppose giving unqualified people preferential treatment. As such, you must agree that the "lot of things" you mention comprise a separate discussion altogether, however important. Race must not be used as a factor in admissions in programs of this nature.

Hayes' other comments and racial epithets aside, when you write that the [VSN program] "demands a second look", you are, in the least, agreeing that her threatening to "vote right now to disband this program" is both ignorant and premature. She has no basis for such a vote, and I thank you for recognizing that.

Michael Pope

When VSN was changed 2 years ago, the critera changed. Prior to that the child had to score a certain thing on the Otis Lennon IQ test in 2nd grade, they had to have a certain score by the teacher about reading ability etc. Seems there was one more thing, but I can't remember that. You had to reach all three to qualify for VSN.

The change was made to only serve 4-8 at VSN. I believe qualifiers are the top 2% of the EOG scores. No IQ test, but more on the relationship of top scores to their peers in that grade level. If you move into this distict from somewhere that doesn't test, it is hard to get into VSN; therefore private testing. One issue with the change was the hope that the VSN and AIG would become more diverse. I don't know why the BOE thought the EOG was more 'color blind' than Otis Lennon, and perhaps it was more to do with the perception of the teachers.

Can anyone add to/correct my memory of the subject.

Debora,
Apologies beforehand for the formatting:

"There are three levels of Advanced Learner eligibility. Students must have four of the five indicators at the appropriate levels listed to be eligible for differentiated instruction in second semester 3rd-5th grades. Students must have three of the four indicators as listed below for rising 6th-8th grades. Very Strong Need candidates at all grade levels must have four of the five indicators as listed. Students may be found eligible at the "Moderate" or "Strong" level in one or more subjects.

Very Strong: Achievement Scores in Language Arts and Math at the 97-99%ile and in Science and Social Studies at the 93-99%ile*

Aptitude Score (Total or Full Scale) at the 97-99%ile*

Grade Average of "A" in each of the four core subjects

Checklist (Observations): 80+

Portfolio (May take the place of one indicator above)

*The CogAT, OLSAT, NNAT, WISC IV and Stanford-Binet aptitude tests are automatically accepted for VSN. Achievement tests automatically accepted include EOG, ITBS, MAT, CAT and Woodcock-Johnson III Other measures may be submitted but will be used at the discretion of the District Oversight Committee.
On a yearly basis, due to possible changes in tests, the District Oversight Committee reserves the right to review and adjust criteria based upon upon current test data for certain grade levels. However, exceptions are not made for individual students. When scores from the Academic Knowledge sub-test of the Woodcock Johnson IV are submitted (in place of separate Science and Social Studies scores), that score must be at the 93-99%ile."

Allen,
When you write:
“The "right question" I was referring to was how the VSN program fits into the overall fabric of the school.
If it is a silo, totally separate and apart, what's the point of placing it at Lincoln at all?”
I as well as other parents with kids attending Lincoln have pointed out here and on other blogs that the VSN program at Lincoln is not a silo. The VSN kids take their core courses (Math, Language Arts, Science and Social Studies) together. However, in courses such as Band/ Chorus/ Orchestra, foreign language, PE, and homeroom as well as extracurricular clubs and sports teams the VSN middle school kids interact with the rest of the school population. Please consider that in addition to the VSN program there are performing arts and global studies magnets at Lincoln as well as kids from the surrounding neighborhood. Furthermore, the administration has done a great job in not letting one group be perceived as “special or elite”. As an example, when there is a field trip the entire grade goes not the VSN only or global studies only etc. The only students that don’t interact with the rest of the school population are the 4th and 5th grade elementary VSN students. The reason for this is there are not other elementary magnet or neighborhood kids attending Lincoln. Furthermore, students at any middle school in the county are grouped in core courses based on academic achievement. In our high schools do you consider AP classes as a separate “silo” school within a school? As I stated elsewhere, somebody in GCS had a brilliant idea when they reopened Lincoln to have all of these groups start fresh so everyone at the school can feel a sense of belonging.
It is dishonest journalism to keep repeating Ms. Hayes incorrect statements about Lincoln without checking to see if her statements are true. Placing an “if” in front of her statements just perpetuates the assumptions instead of fact checking to disseminate the truth to your readers. Have you at least picked up the phone and called Lincoln’s excellent principal Rodney Boone (370-3471) to ask him about how all the programs at Lincoln are functioning?
Regards,

Biotekboy

Allen,

On the “right question” point #1 - Awareness:

A perennial goal of the Plan for Advanced Learners (PAL) is to increase parent awareness of the AL programs in general and the VSN program specifically. You would think that the existence of a program of this nature would be touted by GCS Administration and used as an additional ‘lure’ in business recruitment but that doesn’t seem to be the case. It seems that the only news the public gets of VSN is when the VSN parents are required to oppose the BOE.

One specific goal of the PAL is the creation of a website to inform and promote AL services. Last year, the GCS Staff in conjunction with a couple of VSN parents helped create a prototype AL website. It has languished for the last 15 months. I suggested in October that GCS should finish the site and release it to the public (in conjunction with the demise of an AL discussion group I moderated) but that has yet to happen.

So, if you want to see what the BOE has approved as the framework for AL services, go to http://www.gcsnc.com/al/index.html. Beware that it is a prototype site and when GCS finds out that it has been leaked to the public, it will probably be taken down. But somebody needs to bang on it to find the bugs.

On point #2 – Separation anxiety.

When we told our son that he was going to the VSN program at Wiley, we had to pull him out from underneath his bed and he cried for three days. Now, he would have it no other way. Sometimes, parents have to make decisions for their kids.

I can’t address point #3 unless it’s tied in with point #2.

On points #4 & #5, the truly affluent are likely in private school. And as you have pointed out, academic achievement mirrors socioeconomic levels (“Analysis - Wealth plays a strong role in school success” - N&R 10-9-2005). Should there be a "means test" for VSN participation rather than/in addition to achievement/aptitude test?

The PAL recognizes and makes allowances to try to increase participation from underserved populations.

As far as placement at Lincoln, to quote Ms. Kearns “If we truly believe in diversity, then magnet programs are the only tool we have”. Even though VSN is NOT a magnet program, it shares some of the same characteristics (voluntary participation). Could you imagine the political fallout if VSN were placed at a predominately white school? Or even given it’s own facility?

VSN is a “silo” only to the extent that it is REQUIRED to be by the PAL. I think that has been addressed enough here by other posters that you should realize at this point that it is not. Or visit http://www.hoggsblog.com/?p=1910 or http://littleurbanity.blogspot.com/2007/01/they-think-were-nerds.html for other perspectives.

(I don't mean to sound 'shrill', I posted this in a hurry).

JWG: Thanks for the responses. I'll follow your recommendations to seek other perspectives.
I have heard from a number of people that the Lincoln VSN program is more integrated into the school.
We intend to explore this topic more and have assigned an editorial writer to it.
Ideally, we'd like for her to spend some time at Lincoln to see how VSN functions firsthand.

Allen,

By the way, VSN students are drawn from the ranks of the other AL students.

Statistics on AL populations are at http://www.ncpublicschools.org/ec/data/childcount/ at the bottom of the page.

JWG:
Thanks. I'll have a look.
One question: What made your child so apprehensive about the program?

jwg,

When you quoted Dot Kearns, you left out the last part of her statement
"If we truly believe in diversity, then magnet programs are the only tool we have EXCEPT IN HIGH POINT WHERE WE BUS THE HECK OUT OF EVERYONE!"

How many third graders do you know that want to leave the comfort of a class of kids they have spent three years with, teachers they have grown up with, and a school that they know to go to a school they know nothing about, with teachers they have never met, and kids they do not know? Not to mention that their bus ride doubles, they're on the bus with middle schoolers (in some cases high school kids) and they actually have to work at their homework.

Given the negatives involved in changing schools, I'm surprised that ANY kid goes willingly.

And don't even get me started on being a VSN parent and having to defend your child and yourself from accusations of elitism, superiority, and all the other 'isms that get thrown about when concerned parents advocate for what GCS says their kids require.

But thanks for asking!

Come on Allen. Leave it out. Let them have their VSN program. Who the heck do you think you are?

Why dont you do a report on the 400 white kids that have left High Points three high schools since they implemented the Choice plan. I personally think that this is more damaging to Guilford County schools than the VSN program!

If you get the VSN program thrown out you will probably drive more kids out of the system and into private schools.

Truth,

Perhaps the plan is to drive more students away from public schools into private schools so there will actually be more room in our schools. That way more money can be spent on hiring extra central office experts instead of building quality schools.

And remember that students can't be suspended so this allows more room for disruptive students and saves money onproviding alternative school environments that are so desperately needed.

Plus the veteran teachers leave and fresh teachers can be hired at a cheaper rate.

An extra bonus is the gap is lowered as more and more bright students go private.

Yep, it all makes sense now.

Have you guys (News & Record) changed the way to get to this blog? I searched under editorials as usually do, and it's not posted as it has been?

It seems that the N&R (like Dot Kearns)will not rest until every educational opportunity in this County has been quashed!

All except Northwest of course because that is Allens neighborhood school.

Its funny to me that the N&R questions and wants to do an article on bussing in middle class kids to a dis-advantaged kids school but its ok to do the opposite with absolutely no questions from this fish wrap newspaper whatsoever.

Allen, which classes do the kids end up in when they get off their 1.5 hour bus journey to Southwest middle? Have you any idea? I know what you will say of course. Its all worth it for diversity. That statement is based on no scientific data or fact. It just feels the right thing to do right Allen? Poor kids cant learn unless they sit next to a middle class kid right Allen? That kind of mentality is just plain sad.

I don't call them up that way. I usually scroll down to the Blogs module and click on the appropriate link.

I figured it out. I think things change after a week or so. Sorry for the "disconnect".

I have to admit: when I started replying to this column, and a couple others, on the VSN issue, I truly believed there would be good debate and, hopefully, a good outcome.

It seems, however, as you put it yourself Allen, that we'll be "cursed to keep going round and round on racial dialogue", however misplaced and unnecessary that dialogue is. You seem to want to blame the world for putting your million dollar check in someone else's mailbox. It's meaningless bs, I tell you.

WHY aren't the BOE members replying? Surely they're following the comments. Surely they can "stoop" to this level to explain their positions. WHY is a retreat necessary now? WHY can the affected community not have a say in their decision-making process? WHY!?!?

I'm truly frustrated! With a daughter who'll age out of the fantastic VSN program this year, I had my fingers crossed that they'd extend the program to the 9th - 12th grades. I will do anything to help provide her the best education possible, the education she absolutely, positively deserves. Private school options in this town DO NOT COMPARE, in my opinion, with the VSN program. Her classmates in that school - there's only one school which merits attention - are, as a whole, just kids with parents who can stroke a check. For the typical student, it's better than the GCS alternative. For the typical VSN student, however, it is a step down. The classmates she'd have there are not ALL the quirky, damned smart classmates my daughter now enjoys. The VSN program is truly extraordinary, and I must believe that any and all detractors from it are speaking out of the left side of their asses. They simply don't know shit from shinola!!

Let's move beyond this forum. Let's schedule some real debate in public meetings. Let's provide real numbers to all willing participants and keep the meetings small as per one of my earlier posts. I am still hopeful that we can remove the numbers straight-jackets from the deluded BOE members and get them to take an unbiased look at the program. Again, if this town ever hopes to reach its world-class potential, and we must move towards that potential now, it's something that must occur at some point. Why wait? Why not now!?

Michael Pope

Michale,
Welcome to our world. You are now in a whirlwind tornado that you have now control over. You buy a house 800 yards from a school and expect for you kids to able to go there but you are wrong. The school board comes up with a plan and Allen and his cronies support it so the Board thinks it has buy-in and you 800 yard walk turns into an 11 mile bus ride.
Thats life in Guilford County. Dont count on ANYTHING. You have witnessed the frustrations. No answer from the board and vague no sense arguments with no real debate from the News and Record. How can any credible person in the world support Deen Hayes's remarks for instance? They throw this crap over the wall and walk away.

Michael,

I have real sympathy for you and yet I realize that your dream is one based upon naïveté. As Truth said, Welcome to our World.

Many of us have tried to provide verifiable data to the school board in one-one-meetings and in public forums. We have spoken to the board on so many occasions that I've lost count of the number of times.

We have produced volumes of data and have begged to be a part of the solution.

Yet, not once has the board given us the courtesy of listening. You see every single decision is politically based. Whether it's one board member's desire to protect her alma mater or whether there's federal grant money attached to a program, decisions are NEVER made in the name of educational value or parental buy-in.

We keep fighting, but it's the same song over and over and I guess we all know that nothing will ever change until a real board is elected. Yet we feel it's our obligation to try to affect positive change.

I have met many, many very smart and concerned parents from all across this county and there is always a common denominator found. We have all offered our services to the board. We have offered to form a parent advisory group to the board.

Most often the board just doesn't respond.

Have you ever spoken to the board during public comment? If so then you'll see that very, very few of the 11 actually listen. Most are checking the internet. Have you ever had a follow-up call from one of the members? No.

I know that some board members read this blog, but in the end, they simply don't care.

It's all about politics.

It's never about education.

Michael,

The BOE retreat has nothing to do with VSN and was scheduled before VSN came up (I believe). I think that the BOE has quarterly retreats where they can spend a couple of days discussing important education issues.

The agenda is at http://www.gcsnc.com/boe/2007/1_20_retreat/agenda.html and I do not see an (itemized) entry for VSN unless it's discussed under "Discussion of Strategies for Improved Academic Achievement for Students" or it comes up tangentially to another topic.

Since the retreat is not televised (or recorded, I believe), we can, hopefully, rely on Jennifer/Morgan to give us an account of what goes on.

I will say that, for BOE meetings, reports, handouts, etc. that are to be presented to the BOE are placed on the website in advance. You will not find any of that material (other than the agenda) on the website because (as I was informed by Dr. Becoats office) a 'retreat' is not considered a BOE meeting for the purpose of disseminating materials via the web. If you attend the meeting, you can get a copy as Jennifer and Morgan have done in the past.

Thanks!

Michael,
Have you considered Early College at Guilford for your rising VSN student? My neighbor is attending and he is challanged with a fast, vigerous pace. By the time he graduates with a HS diploma he will have 2 years college credit.

This might be a good fit for your child. Also, I do think that many of our HS have lots of good AP courses that are challenging, but most are not available for 9th graders. Good Luck with your hunt for the right fit for your child.

Amen, Amen, Amen... Quest!

Also, Kathleen Parker's column should be read by everyone in guilford co. this am ---The "Totalitarianism of p.c. thinking".

Allen, AKA " The Duvalier of Diversity", did you ever once think of the hundreds of north High Point children you were helping to send to to the p.c. gallows?

Actually, that's harsh. Allen you were duped by the Dotmeister-by an even more duplicitous force than p.c. thinking. Dot knew she could get mush headed people to believe that her efforts to force white kids to her traditionally-white neighborhood alma mater could be made to look like it was done for diversity, and it was, but it was decidedly NOT done for the benefit of the minority population at her school as she duped you and others into believing.

You've been had by a master. The syrupy smooth, kindly would-be benefactor has played you for a fool again. You can take comfort in knowing you're not alone.

Quest,

DITTO, DITTO, DITTO

I could not have summed the big picture of the past severalyears better myself and I have been a at this a LONG time.

Yes Michael, we hear your frustration in your words. "Welcome to Our World" is an understatement of the past several years in North High Point.

Debora has posted an excellent suggestion, as always. I have friends whose kids have done great at the Early College. One neighbor's child earned a full scholarship to Guilford College. My child has benefitted immensely from AP classes. Other than Debora's advice, if you do not like the private schools here the only other alternative is to move or drink heavily to cope with the frustration.

One more word of advice, join us in 2008 to elect some real school board members who care about EDUCATION for ALL CHILDREN and not their own political agendas or pocketbooks.

Michael Pope

IB program at numerous high schools is an option. We are looking but my daughter is hesitant due to the tremendous academic work load.

jwg:

Given the publicity regarding this issue in the past week(s), how could the BOE not discuss the VSN during their retreat?

All:

I think there's an informational meeting coming up on the programs, but what are the pros & cons of IB vs. Early College? I certainly want the kid to be challenged, but I also want her to have time for a life. All work and no play blahblahblah . . .

If Dot thinks that these VSN children will consider Central's IB program, she will NEVER agree to a 9-12 VSN program.

One thing you can say about Deena. Unlike Allen, she wasn't buying what Dot was selling on Dotfong I. She knew it was b.s. She knew Dot was defending her school demographic and, by extension, her property value etc. Now, two years pass and Dotfong II comes along. Deena has changed her tune. What happened in the interim? A change of heart? I....don't think so. More change of pocketbook likely since the old no-bid contract limit was somehow changed to 50G. Thank you Dot, thank you , Sue.

Good old fashioned free enterprise. gotta love it.

If the BOE members continue to refuse to respond or pay attention to input from their customers, er, concerned parents, why continue with the same m.o.?

I know it should be a last resort, but sometimes legal options work wonders. Maybe a group of concerned and fed up parents could FORCE the BOE to honor their oaths & remove racial quotas from educational programs and DEMAND transparency as regards their decisions / actions.

??

Michael,
My son is an 8th grader also, and strong AL. He is not interested in either IB or Early College, but he hasn't found his passion or motivate. Neighborhood schools are our choice, of course we have good schools,and that makes it easier.

Here are my thoughts- IB, well recognized at colleges, well rounded liberal arts emphasis. Students have same opportunites as all students at their school for extra-curricular. Same day, mingling etc. 4 schools offer IB, Smith, Grimsely, Page, HP Central- there are feeder zones

Early College- only 50 students per class, competition is fierce to get in-located on Guilford College Campus, segregated for the first two years, and then mingle with college students. Block schedule, double dipping classes so basically all required classes taken first two years and then on to electives and college courses. More freedom, smaller amount of students, can still participate in sports at home school, but makes it harder.

Michael, what school are you referring to when you describe your child's friends that "just write a check"--sorry but you totally lost me there.

Also, Quest is right about every word. It's very sad, but he's very, very right. I believe that writing a check might be the only answer for your child. Even is she is thinking of the Early College, they only accept about 45-50 kids each year in their freshman class, and they fill empty slots in the upper grades that are created for whatever reason (students return to sender school, move, etc..)Some believe that it's the natural progression for VSN students but it is not a given that they are accepted. I know some VSN students that were not accepted and I know students that were accepted that were not former VSN students. BUT, and the big butt, if folks like Allen J. and Deena Haze get their way, the application process for these schools--based on merit could change to satisfy some arbitrary diversity quota. I don't know the exact make-up of Early College, but to me it seems pretty diverse.

I have a child at the Early College and I rarely comment about it when the topic comes up because it's not for everyone. Your student really has to be committed and mature and there's other things to consider. Sports participation is available at your sender school and from our experience, it was stressful. The first two years are very challenging academically but the last two years are a different kind of challenge because students are living a real college schedule with big gaps in their day. They'll need transportation (not provided by GC), and a whole lot of common sense to use their new found time wisely. They also have to accumulate 80 hours of voluteer time each year. It's not easy and it's asking your child to grow up quickly. I can see the pros and the cons. I can only offer the advice that it's not for everyone.

Diversiy,

NCDPI shows Early College as (2006/07) 65% White, 16% Black, 17% Asian and 1% each Hispanic & Indian.

jwg, thanks for the numbers.

It shouldn't matter though. It would be very sad to see this program change from its current merit-based admission's policy. This program is very succesful for those that choose it, it has been replicated across the nation and I pray that our BOE will learn that if something ain't broke--don't try to fix it.

Good luck to all out there searching for a "fit". Rearing children in Guilford County has been the absolute hardest part of my parenting experience thus far.

Thanks debora.

Diversity:

I was referring to GDS, and my daughter doesn't attend there now. I was just saying, hypothetically and based on our experience and what I've heard, that the VSN program is a stronger program than what is typically offered there. Knowing what you know now, would you again choose to send your child to Early College? What type of volunteer work is required?

All:

Are most VSN students accepted to Early College?

If we go the IB route, we're looking at HP Central, and that just doesn't work for me. We'd have to move or whatever.

I've heard really good things about Early College.

Thanks debora.

Diversity:

I was referring to GDS, and my daughter doesn't attend there now. I was just saying, hypothetically and based on our experience and what I've heard, that the VSN program is a stronger program than what is typically offered there. Knowing what you know now, would you again choose to send your child to Early College? What type of volunteer work is required?

All:

Are most VSN students accepted to Early College?

If we go