News-Record.com

Hardaway's comments were as sad as they were ignorant. It's very hard to understand what feeds such a deep well of hatred.

Hardaway was exercising his right to express his opinion. Whether we agree with it or not is moot, and should not be a basis for condemnation.
I don't like Skippy Alston or Earl Jones or Deena Hayes when they itimate that they hate white people, but they have the right to express that opinion. I don't care for the Klan's position on blacks or Jews, but they have the same right to express it as the NAACP has to express that they hate the Klan.
It's called Freedom.

Jaycee:
Nobody's saying Hardaway doesn't have the freedom to say what he said.
We're just using the same freedom to reply that it was ignorant.

Jaycee,

Tim Hardaway has the right to say almost any foolish or hateful thing he wants. However, it doesn't make him right in doing so, which was the point of my post. Come to think of it, a disagreement over whether someone was "right" in his opinion was the point of yours as well. No?

I was fortunate enough to be teaching at Penn State at the same time that John was on the basketball team there. He was and continues to be a fantastic ambassador for that program. The guy's a real class act and deserves better than Hardaway's inane comments.

Well said, Dave. On another level, I continue to be discouraged by the bigoted attitudes of many African Americans toward gays. We, especially, should know better.

So who made any of you the judge of what's "right" or not? Just because you personally disagree with someone doesn't make their opinion "right" or "wrong" it just makes it different.
I thought we were about being tolerant of the differences of others? Respectful of those with whom we differ? Gracious in allowing others to express their views though they may be different than ours?
What about those who agree with Hardaway and disagree with you? Does that now make you "wrong" and them "right?"
Being self-righteous and indignant and condescending towards those with feelings that disagree with yours is not a respectful way to treat your fellow human beings. Respect their rights and refrain from judging them if you want them to afford you the same respect.
I swear if I hear one more liberal saying that anyone who disagrees with them is "wrong" I'm gonna scream...
Remember when the Democrat politicians wanted to force Atlanta Braves John Rocker to be INVOLUTARILY COMMITED TO A MENTAL INSTITUTION because he dared exercise his First Amendment right to say what he felt??
It's called Freedom, folks. Respect mine and I'll respect yours. But don't call me "wrong" if you don't like what I say.

This is something of a switch. Usually the liberal side is being accused of moral relativism :)

My tolerance for another's position stops at the point when he or she says another group of human beings (that has caused no harm) shouldn't exist. My respect for Hardaway's position stopped a good ways before that.

Hardaway expressed a bigoted and hateful opinion. As a former NBA star, he is given quite a bit of attention and actually enjoys greater speech opportunities (has access to a larger audience) than most of us. It's too bad that he used that opportunity in such a crummy way and to dis a genuinely nice person.

John has shown a tremendous amount of courage in "coming out." He has asked for nothing more than the opportunity to live his life openly. Those who would hate him or others like him for that simple and dignified request are to be pitied. More's the pity that the request even has to be made.

Jaycee, thanks for bringing up another sports "hero." I'm sure that Tim Hardaway and John Rocker will soon find their places next to Al Campanis, Jimmy the Greek, Rush Limbaugh and other leading lights in the Sports Bigots Hall of Shame.

The langauge of "right" and "wrong" is rife with misunderstanding. Do we mean it ethically, morally or merely as a term of ettiquette, more akin to "proper" or "improper"?

Clearly, any discussion of how we want to shape a common public discourse and manner of treating one another as public persons, especially those held up as "role models" for children, requires some kind of judgements be made, along one or more of the scales I mention above.

I am frankly always stupefied by calls from the occasional student or two who say, "You can't judge me; only God can judge me!", when I am speaking to them about the quality of their artwork, their dedication to the task at hand or even to the propriety of classroom ettiquette.

"Free speech" is not a blank check at all times for all persons in all situations. At least, while the Constitution may stipulate broad latitude (intended mainly for political speech, not personal sexual preference or distaste), we have developed more restrictive social agreements in our many institutions and workplaces. The bar for professional athletes, politicians and others is set at a different level than for the local farmers gathered around the cracker barrel, or at the bar itself after a game among buddies.

Dave,

Bigot - a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

Since you called several individuals that you detest bigots, would you include Armanda Marcotte and Melisa McEwan in that category of people that deserve to be detested as bigots? They certainly have made some statements that reflect utter intolerance of Christians' beliefs, so they would qualify as well, would they not? And, if so, then that would infer that there are bogots on both sides of the political spectrum.

What if Hardaway had said, "I hate all Republicans" ?
Would you condemn him as harshly as you're condemning him for expressing his personal opinion on this?
When someone expresses a personal opionion it's just that, an opinion. He's not stating a disputable fact, or saying that he is right or correct. He's merely expressing his personal feelings on something. It's neither right nor wrong, it's just his opinion and he's entitled to have it and express it. Too bad you don't like it, but I doubt he'd condemn you for your opinion as violently as you condemn him.
Where's the liberal tolerance for the views of others? Or do you liberals only apply that when it's something you disagree with?
Do you agree that, as with Rocker, it's permissible for Democratic politicians to force anyone who disagrees with them to be invountarily committed to a mental institution? Ever heard of the Constitution?

How republican of you Jaycee..

not listening to what anyone else is saying, and continuously repeating your own drivel...the point is:

the guy expressed that he is homophobic, and the he dosn't want to be in the locker room with anyone who is gay. It certainly didin;t bother him when he was making 10 million or so a year. so he is intolerant, and a hypocrite. If he were to say that he hates all republicans, he would still be intolerant. Being gay is not a matter of choice. It probably doesn'd bother you that he made the statement, as you are probably homophobic as well. It's about hate speech and intolerance towards others. When someone expresses hateful views that potentially incite hatred in others, there's no room for tolerance. It's why we have no tolerance for the KKK either.

What's this? Jaycee standing up for moral relatavism?

Spot on, Mikeg. What jaycee is arguing for is tolerance for intolerance.

And yes, Jaycee, I think there would be the same condemnation if an athelete had said, "Well, you know I hate Republicans. I don't like Republicans and I don't like to be around Republicans. They shouldn't be in the world or in the United States."

Stormy:

I have not seen what the two bloggers for John Edwards wrote in their previous columns. So, I wouldn't comment on those cases. Neverthess, we can certainly grant that there is hateful and disrespectful speech on both sides. It's not clear how that makes Hardaway's comments any better. The argument seems very close to the ones that my kids make when we try to point out bad behavior--some variant of either "he did it too" or "everybody does it."

Jaycee:

As you well know, comments along the lines of "I hate X" (and much worse) appear on these blogs every day. Besides being sad, they usually indicate a level of discourse that is so low that there isn't much point in even reading it, much less acknowledging it. It's also ineffective, as I cannot imagine a circumstance where starting a conversation off like that would actually get X to change his/her behavior or point of view.

A difference is that few of these comments question somebody else's right to simply exist.

The beauty of free speech is that it exposes people for whom they are. It also offers us a chance to challenge views that are repugnant.

The problem is when people who hold extremist views have the power to force them on people, like Dot Kearns and her forced busing program (exclusively for High Point, of course) etc. With this case you simply say to yourself as you read the paper; "Oh, eminent social scientist Tim Hardaway doesn't like homosexuals" and you simply go on with your day. Who really gives a crap?

I don't think people are going to change their views on homosexuals due to what Mr. Hardaway says. It's when someone like Hardaway would gain the power to force his views down people's throats and force them to live their lives in accordance with his views that problems would arise.

What's the controversy here?

what he said was very ignorant and very irresponsible because young kids look up to him and the last thing we want to teach young kids is to hate people. He does have the freedom of speech to say what he said but that doesnt make it right. Secondly, I dont even believe that people choose to be gay in the first place. If you are attracted to some one of the same sex or opposite sex, thats just the way you are. Thats just the way a person's brain is wired. Its ignorance thats causes people to hate and discriminate. The same kind of ignorance you see in people who are racist.

I find it hard to defend someone saying, in a blanket statement, that he or she "hates" any group of people and doesn't believe they have a right to exist "in the world," no less.
Frankly, this doesn't seem very complicated to me.

Skeet Club:
How you tied Tim Hardaway to Dot Kearns was, well, amazing.

It doesn't seem complicated to me, either, Allen.
I believe Hardaway has the right to think what he wants and express his feelings and opinions. I can't call what he says "wrong" because he has the right to hold that opinion for whatever reason.
I might not agree with him, I might think his opinion is twisted, I might think he could have avoided controversy by keeping his mouth shut. But I think it's despicable to try to deny someone their right to hold an opinion based on whether I agree or not. It's his opinion, it's not a disputable fact on which he was mistaken.
If he said "I hate strawberries" should all of us who love strawberries say he's "wrong" for having his opinion? That's bigotry to me, judging what someone else thinks or feels based on whether I hold the same opinion or not. Who are we to judge and denounce others just because they don't think the same way we do?
This whole line of discussion borders on "Thought Police" mentality, a world in which the liberals decide what we can think and say. We're already too far down that road for me, this is just another example of liberals trying to forcibly silence those with whom they disagree.

You should be saying Dot's amazing, Allen.

Obviously anything can be tied to Dot Kearns. There are, in the end, only three real subjects which fuel all discourse: Birth, death and in-between-reproduction-more commonly known by various colloquialisms of varying degrees of crudeness.

It is the latter which would describe what Dot Kearns did to her town and north High Point citizens in particular.

I think we catch your drift on Dot. What about Tim Hardaway?

Jaycee, you are arguing against a straw man of your own creation. Who exactly is trying to deny Hardaway the "right to hold an opininion?

However, I am looking forward to you continuing to discuss issues in the blogosphere now that you have articulated a standard that says we are not to judge or denounce people based on whether or not we agree with their opinions. I'll give you 24 hours before you break your own rule.

Tim Hardaway is a basketball player. He dribbles a rubber ball up and down a wood floor and tries to make it go through a metal ring.

I don't think in the end what he has to say about human sexuality is going to be terrible relevant to many although he is in a little different position that the man on the street due to lockeroom issues etc.

We wouldn't even probably be talking about it except that a member of the media has to fill up air time or print space (or if you didn't have to fill up blog space for that matter).

Since the advent of mass media and the need to fill up air time, things of no importance become important. It feeds itself, and we create Anna Nicole Smith/ Paris Hilton type monsters. etc.

I'll differ philosophically on this one, although not practically. Hardaway's is an ignorant opinion, and I join everyone in shouting him down in a marketplace of ideas sort of way.

But. It is, potentially at any rate, a moral opinion: he is judging a behavior that traditionally has regarded as immoral. Change the subject to incest or polygamy, other forms of sexual activity that (a) are potentially consensual, and (b) are potentially regarded as immoral. If Hardaway had said, "Incest shouldn't be in the world or in the US," no one would have cared because, as a culture, we collectively share that moral opinion.

But with homosexuality, some of us regard it as a behavior (subject to regulation like other behaviors: fornication, incest, polygamy) and some of us regard it as an identity (like race, about which one can do nothing). Allen falls in the latter category, since he changes Hardaway's "it" (homosexuality) to "them" (homosexuals).

As a borderline libertarian, I have it both ways: homosexuals have every right to practice sexuality as they see fit, Hardaways have every right to denounce it and suffer whatever consequences may result.

In Hardaway's world YOU are wrong and he is right.
In your world YOU are right and Hardaway's wrong.
Each of you has your own opinion, and neither has any more value than the other. It's just an opinion.
We all have the right to an opinion and to express it. One's opinion is neither right nor wrong (except to those who would seek to supress opinions with which they disagree) because it's just an opinion, not a fact.

Stormy's take is spot on. I believe there to be an interesting parallel there. The right to say what one believes vs the consequences of that expression. John I suggest you read Marcotte's post that landed her in hot water. She had every right to express herself as she did. Doesnt make it right.

Too much ink on Hardaway. Not worth the energy, time, paper, etc. BTW whatever his position with the NBA was, it is no more. He got canned.

Actually, he's retired. He was a very good player with the Miami Heat. Nice touch on his jumper. Great court judgment. Bad talk-radio judgment.
Sad to say, he was being honest.

Would Hardaway have made the same comment about playing with an adulterous player or a player convicted of rape or physical abuse against a woman?

I'm just always amazed how often you hear people speak out against homosexuality while remaining so silent about dispicable heterosexual behavior.

There almost seems a desire to keep the focus on one thing and away from another.

Let's not get too close to home . . .

I just received a Valentine from a gay man . . . and as far as I can tell, it didn't hurt me. (It wasn't an advance, but even if it had been, it would have been no more offensive than a won't-take-no-for-an-answer jerk of a man harassing a woman who's clearly expressed that she's not interested.)

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