News-Record.com

Allen, you mentioned that your collegiate organization was not separatist.

Do you feel that black colleges have a separatist leaning?

Not really. There are plenty of white students at A&T, for instance.

So you don't think separitist thinking goes into the marketing of black universities? You don't think marketing to black students on the basis that their needs may be better served at a university that truly understands the needs that may be unique to the black-college student experience is extant?

No, for reasons I think you already stated pretty well yourself.

I'm not sure I'm following, Allen. Are you saying that the student would come to his OWN conclusion that his needs would be better served at a largely black college and that this angle would never be used to actively market the college, by representatives of the college, if the college was actively recruiting a particular student to come there?

Yes. Now I'm sure A&T recruits. It wants the best and brightest as much as UNCG or State or Chapel Hill.
But it also spends considerable time and effort recruiting white students and Hispanics.
And this is not just a recent trend.
Some notable examples of black-college alums: Gov. Mike Easley, NCCU School of Law, and City Councilwoman Trudy Wade (Tuskegee School of Veterinary Medicine).

I'm quite sure A&T recruits. What I was asking is: are you are saying race consideratons are never part of marketing strategies of black universities in general?

Sure it is. Some students may consider such an environment more nurturing and supportive.

So, in response to the original question of: "do you think black colleges have a separatist leaning", we can change your original musing of "not really" to at least a "maybe"?

Put it this way, if Dr. Malveaux woke up tomorrow and looked out her window to find 5,000 white bubbleheads singing Brad Paisley in the quad, she would be happy?

How is being majority black being separatist?

Allen, just imagine replacing the word "Black" with "White" in the name of a major college campus organization. Would that be OK with everyone? Socially acceptable?
How about a "White National Student Movement?" Or "UNC-G White Students Union?"
Do you honestly fail to see how the very existence of racially oriented organizations furthers separatist feelings?

I think separatism would be implied, if you were marketing your institution as being of benefit to a certain student because they would find more of a certain student there and a tradition of serving more of a certain type student there.

I didn't see it with BSM. As I mentioned, we were open to any student. We had a number of dues-paying white members and one of our officers was white.
When I was at UNC there was a women's student organization, a gay student organization, an international student organization, a Christian fellowship, etc.
I saw none of them as separatist.

It seems the man on the street is not the one who wants separation or preferential treatment or claims prejudice against this or that group, it is the people who are making their meal tickets from the difference, whether it's Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton and their 15K speaking honorariums, being president of a college designed for a certain group, having a bureaucratic political job as part of a "Dept of Human Relations", drawing saleries as the head of this or that foundation or commision, politicians getting federal funds for housing projects etc. or schoolboard members hollering about this or that who will sell their votes if their favorite charity gets a no-bid contract.

As long as people are eating off this separation, it's going to exist. Certain people will obviously make sure of it.

What does this have to do with A&T?

You were saying BSM did not want separation and I meant to imply that's a good thing, as opposed to other interested parties.

Sorry if I misinterpreted. I'll go back and re-read the thread.

If I may digress, I do think congrats are in order. Even though today's editorial did mostly parrot what Grier and Duncan said about individual student school re-assignments (imagine that), there was the implication that the board should do what's best for the individual students.

Ah yes,...seems like only yesterday, in the same space, we were getting told that we should send our children to certain schools due to the (Richard Kahlenberg)putative collective benefit to this or that group or to appease some members' of the schooloboards desire to upgrade the demographics at their own neighborhood schools, and be darn happy to do it.

Now we're back to the individual. I guess things can change.

Not so fast. There still is a balance between the needs of the individual and the overall greater good.

Not so fast. There still is a balance between the needs of the individual and the overall greater good.

Wasn't an issue decades ago when Blacks formed their own colleges to educate and bring up their kids because the White man told them, primarily in the South, you're not welcome in our schools, and there wasn't a White man or White politician encouraging them to do otherwise back in those days.

So now, according to your argument Skeet, because of all this social progress, ya gotta drop that Black identity stuff that we Whites forced the Black people to take up decades ago.

According to your line of arguing, perhaps because we're a nation of all religions Notre Dame should shed it's primarily Catholic traditions and market more to the Baptists and others like them.

Black colleges were there for their people when the majority of this nation tried to block their educational aspirations and desires to better themselves. That history tends to attract a lot of Black students out of a sense of appreciation to the sacrifices of those before them.

A&T is just as separatist as, say, Sunset Hills--probably less so. Different groups of people move to different locations--neighborhoods, schools, churches, clubs. As long as there's not active discrimination, what's the problem?

The problem comes when well-intentioned Trotskyites with 5-year plans, demographic charts, and a fetish for the "greater good" begin monkeying with things.

So what you are saying, Allen, is like we saw happen in High Point, some kids are individuals with needs and some kids are just "lottery fodder" to help some greater good.

Hmmm.. wonder who decides?

Obviously some parents are not going to tolerate being collectivized and used for someone's (like Allen Johnson's or Dot Kearns') idea of greater good.

Jon, I didn't say black colleges are bad or need to be disbanded. I think if you want to go to a school in Lapland with Laps and drink fermented reindeer milk, or go down to Haiti and persue postgrad work towards a PHd. in Voodoo, more power to you.

I was simply asking Allen if he thought separatist sentiment was used as a marketing tool by black colleges, and, as is very uncharacteristic of Allen-especially when talking race issues, he happened to answer in doublespeak.

Which brings us to the problem on any discussion on race, especially concerning conversations between white and black, the issue of wanting to not have race matter but on the other hand wanting it to matter, (affirmative action, no-bid contracts, firing police chiefs and on and on and on)and having both these sentiments exist at the same time.

Allen, any comment on the ambivalence that seems to derail any talk about race mentioned above?

Race still does matter. Racism still exists. So we have to talk about it. Or at least we should.
That aside, an affirmation of my blackness, as in my affiliation with BSM in college, needn't be a putdown of anyone's whiteness, or of other races.
I have not seen A&T in any way market itself as separatist.
People know it's historically black. If anything, it probably spends more resources making sure other races and ethnic groups know they're welcome.

Agreed racism still does exist and does matter. Agreed we need to talk about it, and we are trying to do that right here.

Again, any comment on the ambivalence of wanting to be treated different and equal at the same time. What do you as a individual think about it and how do you navigate as a result of it?

Allen wrote:
"...my affiliation with BSM in college, needn't be a putdown of anyone's whiteness, or of other races."

Allen, would you consider a "White Student's Movement" a putdown of non-white races? Would it be socially acceptable on today's college campus?
How about if the KKK "gladly welcomed" non-whites? Would you then remove it from a list of racist organizations?
Please explain your thoughts on the social ramifications of a "black" organization versus a "white" organization.

Like Allen says, I guess we need to talk about it, but I guess just not that bad.

Actually, from the tone of Allen's last post, it's apparent it was was a summary brush off such as we've always seen when these conversations start to get to the meat of the problem.

So we'll go on. The same people, the same scams, rationalized and seemingly overlooked by the same newspaper. And then tomorrow there will be another thread which will ultimately come back to the same problem like so many others before.

A White Student Movement? At A&T, perhaps. I'm not so sure you'd need one at UNC. What would be its purpose?
When I was a student there were 1,200 black students and 20,000 white ones.

The purpose of the white student union would be to safeguard against the administration and the remainder of the student body systematically and secretly plotting to screw them over, of course. What are we, dense here? Similar to what Dr. Malveaux said at One Guilford in reference to prosperity, the leader of the white student organization could confront the A&T admin. with statements like "We're talking education here, but education for who"?

And in light of this inevitable screwing over, perhaps the white students could get together, hold seminars etc. and see if they can find a way make it pay, baby!

So, Allen, you would see no harm in a "White Student Movement" organization at a college or university? You would not think it racist in nature, and you're sure that other blacks wouldn't, either?