News-Record.com

The criminal case involving those records was adjudicated decades ago.
The old records would serve no purpose except to satisfy someone's curiosity, or fuel yet another conspiracy theory.
Does anyone think that GPD or any other PD saves each and every piece of evidence and paper from cases resolved 30 years ago? Of course not.
Allen, did you ever get a traffic ticket when you were a teenager? Do you still have it? Would you expect the PD or the Courts to still have a copy 30-40 years after it went through the court system? Of course not.
PD's routinely purge their systems of long-dead cases and paperwork. This was nothing more than that.

Nelson Johnson using an unnamed source to turn the spotlight on himself.
Who would have thought it.
Just remember- it is the Gospel of Mark- not Marx.

Thank you Jaycee. Nice to know someone got some common sense. Speaking of police line ups, I seem to remember one in Durham a year are so a go. Wonder were all the print is on this?

Regardless of record keeping requirements, ya just don't go destroying records related to an event that recently went through another round of soul searching.

Why it was done, who knows, but common sense should prevail in matters such as these even if the material destroyed more than likely wouldn't have shed any other info about the event.

Now we'll probably have to endure another round of unneccessary finger pointing and accusations.

Jaycee, I wouldn't compare these documents to a traffic ticket.

Why is this even considered news? It's the same old troublemakers like Nelson Johnson singing the same, tired tune. This guy and his cronies could find a racist conspiracy in a dog barking at a cat.

Reality check: the Nazi-Communist shootout happened nearly 30 years ago. It's ancient history and something that 99 percent of Greensboro residents could care less about. Heck, the majority of current Greensboro residents either didn't live here in 1979 or hadn't even been born yet.

But a handful of middle-aged radicals and the News & Record seem intent on keeping this long-ago event in the spotlight. Why? Isn't there any real news to report that is relevant in 2008?

Just Saying:

This is not news? Of course it is.

Even if the allegations turn out to be unfounded, they deserve a response from the city other than "we are not aware."

Are you suggesting the News & Record -- and the other media, local and statewide, should not have covered this story?

Johnson: "Are you suggesting the News & Record -- and the other media, local and statewide, should not have covered this story?"

EXACTLY ALLEN! Excuse me for shouting but that's the closest I 've seen you come to actually getting it. It's not a story. It's an allegation by an unnamed source.

Yet there it is, on the front page.

Haven't you guys learned your lesson on that by now?

Exactly Allen no news source worth its laptop should be covering this. I'm surprised the documents existed this long.

Please don't have the N&R wasting my subscription dollars and advertising dollars with things like this in the future. It's not what your customers are paying you for.

It worked!
Jon believes the hype!

Here's a good one for you-

Unnamed sources ( I have several) have disclosed that several local non-profit organizations have manufactured a story, which can not be refuted (or proved), in order to deflect the hot spotlight shining on certain officers in the GPD. I think the city should spend $millions to investigate.

And there are so many folks out there that are starving for the Gospel.

2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

Are you suggesting the News & Record -- and the other media, local and statewide, should not have covered this story?

*************

Yes, I am.

I'm also suggesting that the whole Klan-Communist shootout/ "Truth" and Reconciliation deal has been completely overhyped by the News & Record. The vast majority of the public couldn't care less and is sick and tired of hearing about it.

Seems to me the first step would be to determine if this event ever really actually happened. Any investigative reporter types out there anymore?

Why, if the veil of secrecy were so important to the GPD, would 4 officers just dump the stuff in a dumpster?

Somebody get a delivery schedule for the dumpsters and a shovel! Go to it. Actually might need a back hoe I guess... been a while.

This one just smells odd to me.

So, we ignore any news conferences until we can confirm that whatever s they're saying is absolutely, positively true?

That's a good point Allen.
So to confirm, your decision is to post unconfirmed allegations by an unnamed source on the front page with bold headlines.
How can you possibly defend this?
Do you truly, in your heart, believe this is responsible journalism?
Can you at least understand how some would compare this to National Enquirer standards?

Had "The Source" come to you with the info would you have run with the story as is?

There may well be something here. I am not discounting that possibilty at all. It just doesnt feel right at this point.

Right now we have - A secret police unit hangs onto 50 boxes of secret stuff for 30 years and secretly throws it in a dumpster (rather than secretly shredding it) and a secret source reports all this under the veil of secrecy to the Pastors.

The problem is, this would have been less of a story if the city's response had not been so vague.
An out-and-out denial would helped.
The fact that there wasn't one does raise legitimate questions.

Tony, the N&R has been pushing the Nelson Johnson/Truth & Reconciliation Commission/Communist Workers Party point-of-view for years now. This is just par for the course.

I think the idea is that if they tell us it's important over and over again, we'll start to believe it's true.

Three prominent ministers make some charges about police records about a nationally known event being trashed. The city is consulting with the DA's office to determine if any laws were broken.

People are talking about it on blogs here and other places. Lots of people.

That's news. And there is nothing irresponsible about it.

By the way, it isn't on the front page today.

first of all let me say I am not a personal friend of david wray so my agenda here is not to defend him. I am outraged that the news-record continues to pander to this "group" of people. the kkk & cwp are two red neck organizations that have no place in society and nelson johnson & company (brown & headen) do nothing but polarize our city. the truth & reconciliation commission is nothing but a joke being force-fed to citizens of greensboro. I will do everything I can to discredit these people and their efforts ( not that they need a lot of help). please feel free to pass on my contempt to n. johnson & company...note to n. johnson...contempt as defined by webster's dictionary: lack of respect or reverence.

As far as I can tell, the Nazi-Klan shootout wasn't of much interest to 99% of Greensboro when it happened, and now that 75% or more of the current population wasn't even in Greensboro back then it's of even less interest. The whole thing sounds like the movie "Dumb and Dumber" except with guns. It never really involved Greensboro, but a very few of the population who, like terrier dogs with a bone, just won't let it go.

So, would you or would you not like to know if the allegations are factual and, if so, why the documents were destroyed.

And if they are not factual, wouldn't you like to have that proven?

ok lets role play.. gboro police dept. responds that yes... the documents were destroyed to conserve space. prior to destruction we confirmed that electronic copies were in place at police dept. fbi sbi and attorney general office. your move nelson.. i mean allen.

Three prominent ministers make some charges about police records about a nationally known event being trashed. The city is consulting with the DA's office to determine if any laws were broken.

People are talking about it on blogs here and other places. Lots of people.

***************

1. Three prominent ministers = three known rabble-rousers, one of whom has a personal stake in seeing the Communist side of this ancient incident vindicated. None of these guys are exactly considered pillars of responsible thought.

2. The city consults with the D.A.'s office on a wide variety of matters all of the time. Doesn't many charges are even close to being filed.

3. The only people talking seem to be folks complaining about the News & Record hyping up an otherwise non-existent story.

That's not news. That's irresponsible.

Just Saying:
The News & Record was there. It was not alone.

waiting on your move nelson.. i mean allen

some folk's rabble-rousers just might be others' truth-tellers; and vice versa . . .

jww:
We could ponder hypotheticals all day: The question remains, did anything happen and if so, why?

yawn.....like the man said.. considering the source.. that's not newsworthy that's irresponsible.

Allen,

The first issue that the News-Record needs to investigate is this. Were there 50 boxes of records that had information relating to investigations in 1979 of the CWP, and were they thrown into the dumpster? Then, you can go from there

You said that this was surely news. We do not know as yet whether it is news or not. You haven't investigated it. All it is right now is unfounded allegations based upon an unnamed source. That makes it a rumor, not news. This whole mess reminds me of the New York Times printing allegations against John McCain that had no basis in fact, only vague rumors and innuendos. I expect more of the New York Times and the News-Record. Be a quality news organization or continue to die the slow death. Do you want your motto to be "No rumor not fit to print"?

The people that you call reporters there are really sound bite recorders. They do not understand the concept of investigative reporting.

So, get someone on it who can ask the right questions of the right people and delve into the allegations. Heck, hire Ben Holder to do the job, if you do not have anyone up to the task. Ben usually gets the story right and before your newspaper anyway.

Mr.Robinson, the state of NC has pa millions on mental health care, have not seen this in the NR, yet it was the talk of Raleigh this week end. Is this not news? We have to dig up 2 highways in this state that are brand new at a cost of millions, this must not be news either. Maybe its only news when it fits your liberal adgenda.

" Allen Johnson said:
So, we ignore any news conferences until we can confirm that whatever s they're saying is absolutely, positively true?"

Well, Allen, why don't you start by hiring someone who knows the difference between a "news conference" and a dog-and-pony publicity stunt?

I'm sure GPD did destroy the old records of a case disposed of decades ago, the same as they've cleared their shelves of tens of thousands of old cases and records from decades ago. GPD is not a historical society, they're a government agency funded by MY tax dollars and I expect them to run it efficiently. And that includes throwing out the trash now and then.

Allen, if the N&R was to "investigate" then they original story would have some "background" to it, such as:
1) What are the laws concerning purging old records? (Bloggers know the answer, why don't you?)
2) What are GPD's policies on records retention after cases have been disposed of?
3) What criteria do other area PD's use in purging their systems of old records?
4) Does the DA or the State AG have any opinion on the retention of decades old criminal records in cases that were adjudicated of in court?

For Pete's sake, do some independent research and quit merely regurgitating what Nelson Johnson and his ilk proclaim. I know you guys are beholden to the race-baiters in the Nelson Johnson circle, but give is a break, will ya??

"Ben usually gets the story right and before your newspaper anyway."

Usually?

Well, you guys all know the N&R's motto: "All the rumors fit to print." That's the N&R, right?

Seriously, people, if you expect this paper to have any evidentiary standards when race is even tenously involved, you haven't been reading this paper. That an allegation have some plausible factual basis (e.g. a real person with a name making a claim), that said allegation potentially involve a criminal act (not at issue here), that the significance of alleged act be even speculatively available--none of this even registers. They just can't conceive that this isn't the most important thing to happen in Greensboro this week. Hence: front page.

Anyhow, since the Truth and Reconcilation Komission got to the bottom of things and exposed the Truth for the rest of us, why would we even need The Man's documents (doubtlessly tainted by fascism)? With the Truth, why would need anything else?

Wait, I know! Because in those boxes lurked memos detailing The Man's nefarious plot to train the Klan as a "Special Ops" unit for with to crack down on unruly humanitarians. I have an unnamed source on this. Look for it tomorrow on the front page.

Well, you guys all know the N&R's motto: "All the rumors fit to print." That's the N&R, right?

Seriously, people, if you expect this paper to have any evidentiary standards when race is even tenously involved, you haven't been reading this paper. That an allegation have some plausible factual basis (e.g. a real person with a name making a claim), that said allegation potentially involve a criminal act (not at issue here), that the significance of alleged act be even speculatively available--none of this even registers. They just can't conceive that this isn't the most important thing to happen in Greensboro this week. Hence: front page.

Anyhow, since the Truth and Reconcilation Komission got to the bottom of things and exposed the Truth for the rest of us, why would we even need The Man's documents (doubtlessly tainted by fascism)? With the Truth, why would need anything else?

Wait, I know! Because in those boxes lurked memos detailing The Man's nefarious plot to train the Klan as a "Special Ops" unit for with to crack down on unruly humanitarians. I have an unnamed source on this. Look for it tomorrow on the front page.

Well, you guys all know the N&R's motto: "All the rumors fit to print." That's the N&R, right?

Seriously, people, if you expect this paper to have any evidentiary standards when race is even tenously involved, you haven't been reading this paper. That an allegation have some plausible factual basis (e.g. a real person with a name making a claim), that said allegation potentially involve a criminal act (not at issue here), that the significance of alleged act be even speculatively available--none of this even registers. They just can't conceive that this isn't the most important thing to happen in Greensboro this week. Hence: front page.

Anyhow, since the Truth and Reconcilation Komission got to the bottom of things and exposed the Truth for the rest of us, why would we even need The Man's documents (doubtlessly tainted by fascism)? With the Truth, why would need anything else?

Wait, I know! Because in those boxes lurked memos detailing The Man's nefarious plot to train the Klan as a "Special Ops" unit for with to crack down on unruly humanitarians. I have an unnamed source on this. Look for it tomorrow on the front page.

A local blogger, with very little investigation, states that the charges brought by the holier-than-thou triumvirate are not only wrong, but libelous and probably civily negligent. Isn't this a much, much more newsworthy story than the original red herring?

Ben,

Okay, I was trying to be kind to Allen. Ben is always more accurate and timely with the story.

Off topic, but just for the record Allen, are you related to Nelson Johnson?
If not, how would you describe your professional relationship with him?

Brian:
As John mentioned, the story was not a front-page story. It ran on the local front.

As for Nelson Johnson, Tony, no, he and I are not related. I'm not sure what you mean when you ask what my professional relationship is with him.

It's probably no different from my professional relationship with Jim Melvin or Tim Bellamy or John Hammer or Becky Smothers.

I know him. I've had conversations with him. I've interviewed him. I've written about him.

I'm not a lawyer but what is the law for retaining records in homicides?
Homicide does not have a statute of limitations so theoretically cases can be reopened due to deathbed confessions etc. can they not? If all the documents are gone, would that be good???

Just asking.

I saw above the guy referred to The CWP guys as rednecks. That's kind of a new one. Wherever they are now, they have to be amused.

Allen, are you related to Mitch Johnson?

The other thing here is that the TRC did lay some culpability for "79 at the feet of the CWP, so if new info comes to light, and if civil suits were filed by family members etc, some lawyer could run with this and theorectically Nelson Johnson could be found liable. Not that they would ever sue him, but theorectically he could be exposing himself to liability and damage recovery although there may be a statute of limitations issue here.

Actually, Mitch and I are brothers.

Savage,

North Carolina Municipal schedule for record retention on felony cases is 20 years. That has long since passed in this case.

Thanks, Anon

Is not twenty years kind of short for homicide?

I thought they got that Klan guy who killed Medgar Evers like forty years later.

Allen what is your personal opinion of the accusations being brought to light by the three ministers of the community? Do you think they are correct in their allegations and are pointing their fingers at the appropriate persons? Do you think they are attempting to keep racism active in the community? Have you personally considered what their motive is for bringing forth these accusations? And, do you agree with the motive?

Allen, what is your take on Ben Holder's analysis and investigation of the matter? In your opinion, does it have merit? Do you believe Ben's assessment is thorough and on the right tract? Do you agree with Ben's assessment completely, in part or not at all?

I appreciate your consideration of these questions.

Savage,

Here is the pertinent schedule, as it applies in North Carolina. I'm not sure about the Evers case, but it wasn't covered under N.C. law. It doesn't refer to homicides specifically, but rather investigations involving felonies. It is also most likely that some case files and records are reduced to electronic filing media, and or sent to the state for keeping. The matter in discussion was alleged 50 boxes of paper records, it is assumed, and this schedule would apply. I can't imagine that 50 boxes of records sat in the SID office for nearly 30 years, then a sgt. decided to have sensitive records thrown into a dumpster. The schedule also provides methods of destruction, and throwing into a dumpster isn't one of them. I would think that if that is what happened, Sgt. McMinn committed an offense for which he could be disciplined.

CASE RECORDS FILE. Records of cases investigated by police personnel. (Comply with provisions of G.S. 132-1.4 regarding confidentiality of criminal investigation records.)
DISPOSITION INSTRUCTIONS:
a) Felonies - Destroy in office after 20 years.
b) Misdemeanors, investigations, noncriminal, missing persons, etc. - Destroy in office
after 5 years.

Allen,

I never realized you and Mitch were brothers. Small world.

You know, I wonder if these guys have lots the trust of individuals from their respective church's. If my preacher made allegations that could potentially ruin a mans good name without naming a source, I would definately have to second guess his judgement.

Also, didn't they say the documents were put in the trash? Doesn't that in and of itself seem kind of strange? If I was trying to get rid of something I didn't want others to see I definately wouldn't simply throw it in the trash.

Ryan

Savage, there is no "open homicide case" on the Klan/CWP shootings. People were charged, tried in court, and found not guilty. End of case.

Allen, sounds like your neighbors need some diversity. DId you see the shameful story that came out of Northwest High on news 2?

What about advocating to bus these kids over to Dudley or something?

Here is the link if you didnt see it.

http://www.digtriad.com/video/default.aspx?aid=189412&cat=&storyid=98879

allen,

Yes, the problem as we have discussed here before is that Northwest has a stunning lack of diversity. there definitely needs to be a choice plan program to balance the diversity of Dudley and Northwest. Think of all the good that would do for all of those white kids at Northwest. As Marti Sykes once said about more diversity for the white kids at Southwest High through the HP Choice Plan "Those kids need it".

I remember back when I was a kid, my mom would put me on her lap and read me a running feature in a mag called "Highlights For Children" called "Goofus and Gallant" about two brothers-one who always did the right thing and one who was always kind of screwing up. The psychic damage from this aside- Allen, which one would be you and which one Mitch?

Neither, but I'll give you points for your sense of humor, Savage.

The bottom line: As an our editorial stated, the charges are serious enough either to be confirmed or debunked.

Ignoring them should not be an option.

Thanks Jaycee. Are there ever any exceptions to the double jeopardy law?

If the case can't be re-opened and none of the police on the force in 1979 are still around and the law states the records can be discarded after 20 years, then there really is no purpose to the minsters' press conference other than to try and make the current police look bad, as if they need more of that. Duh...why would anybody want to do that, especially now that that vicious rascist-David Wray is gone?

Allen, should you care to answer it there's a question on your logic stated above located at:
http://www.busybeingbornblog.com/?p=32#comment-371

Actually, I don't care to answer. It's an absurd hypothetical.

That's a good non answer.
Absurd must be a matter of opinion as I consider it absurd what you have perpetrated on this community by your lack of responsible journalism (another matter of opinion) on this particular subject.
Agreed to disagree.
Reporting unconfirmed allegations by an unnamed source in the manner in which you have is irresponsible.
I'm vented, I'm done. Thanks for your time to listen.

By the way, I enjoy most of your other work.

But wouldn't you agree, there's a difference in reporting an unconfirmed allegation as unconfirmed and reporting it as fact?

Agreed.
But reporting "unconfirmed allegations" would seem like an opening of Pandora's Box and would allow people with agendas against someone an open ended source to be used against that person (as demonstrated in my absurd hypothetical).
In this case, you, along with other media, seemed to have been used as a pawn.
Will you report, with the very same vigor, if the allegations are deemed false?

Tony, I'm not sure why you are taking a hard line on Allen for giving ink to the Pulpit Forum.

I would think showing the public that there are agenda-driven zealots in potential positions of power in the community and how they think (or don't think) would be considered a community service.

Which is also why they have these blogs, come to think of it.

Tony Wilkins wrote:
Will you report, with the very same vigor, if the allegations are deemed false?

Of course we will.

iI'm almost amused that some people see us (the News & Record) in league.

I can tell you, with absolutely certainty, that they don't feel that way.

Nelson Johnson, Cardes Brown, the Pulpit Forum, Skip Alston, Gladys Shipman, Deena Hayes and the rest of this far-left crowd have so bamboozled the City Council and the N-R that these two bodies will go to any length to prove they are not racist. It's pathetic.

This "missing files" episode is the biggest non-story that ever was. Yet the N-R is treating it like the scandal of the decade.

The line now forms for people to sue Nelson Johnson for defamation of character. This man is out of control.

I'm afraid this is another case of shooting the messenger.

Is this story newsworthy? Yes.
Is it front page worthy? Probably not but that's not worth arguing.
Should the N&R investigate this story? Damn straight.
Is the N&R in league with the CWP? You could make me believe the N&R is in league with the Bobblehead but the CWP-- no way.
Is Allen related to Nelson? Allen was a local boy who grew up just blocks from where I grew up in East Greensboro and made good for himself. Nelson Johnson was an out of town rabble rouser so I doubt there's a connection.
Should the N&R have presented this story differently. Possibly, but as I was at that press conference I can safely say the N&R wasn't given anything else to go on.
Was Truth and Reconciliation a bad idea? No, but the City did blow a perfectly good chance to put an end to this thing once and for all.

Are the accusations true? They've all but been debunked. If the "evidence" that Johnson claims to be hiding is no better than what he's told us so far his own congregation will soon begin to doubt him and soon he'll be washed up.

I only hope the N&R will give the same level of attention to the lawsuit brought on by those persons Nelson Johnson and company have slandered.

Like it or not, because the Greensboro City Council did such a poor job of dealing with these problems in 1979 and again with T&R we were doomed to repeat them a third time. Consider this the 3rd pitch for Greensboro and the last chance to get on base and tie the game.

"No, but the City did blow a perfectly good chance to put an end to this thing once and for all."

Why would we want to do that sort of thing, Billy?

It would end forever the ability to drag the whole thing back out whenever need to propagandize some agenda, or to distract everyone from more serious issues that cry out for current action.

"No, but the City did blow a perfectly good chance to put an end to this thing once and for all."

Why would we want to do that sort of thing, Billy?

It would end forever the ability to drag the whole thing back out whenever needed to propagandize some agenda, or to distract everyone from more serious issues that cry out for current action.

Billy:
You make some very good points. The city could have put this to rest long ago by simply dealing with it more directly years ago.

Seems to me the city could have done a bit more to help by confronting it more directly, indeed. But I seriously doubt that would've put it to rest. Maybe I'm just cynical, but as long as there is hay to be made (e.g., funds to be raised, media attention to be drawn, etc.) by keeping this issue alive, it won't be put to rest. The incentives pointing in the opposite direction are too strong.

And the results of the TRC point to its one-sided pursuit: To parse as much blame as possible to the city and GPD, and as little as possible (without completely whitewashing) the CWP. You don't even have to read particularly long between the lines to see how slanted the TRC's final report is. I fail to see how the council's involvement with the TRC would have had any impact whatsoever. Perhaps someone can explain it a little better, or point me to a blog post where someone does? I'd appreciate it (honestly).

If the city has culpability in failing to confront this head-on, then so does Nelson Johnson, the rest of the CWP cohort, and their supporters.

One other thing that continues to bother me: Nelson Johnson and his fellow travellers openly supported a regime (Mao's PRC) that we now know murdered nearly 40 million of its own citizens. The CWP openly sought the overthrow of all governments that did not adhere to communist principles, in spite of this horrifying history. That fact alone forever taints Johnson's voice, as well as the perspective of the TRC, in my eyes, as surely as the hideous racist ideology of the Klan and Nazis do theirs.

I am a white female, I tell you this because I don't understand why this is being brought up again. I lived in Greensboro at the time this took place. I was outside at the time the shooting and I heard the shots, but I did not learn till later what I had heard.

I followed closely what the news media had to say. I think I remember that the Klan was invited to Greensboro by the CWP. I am appalled that the CWP invited them here. What were they thinking? What were they looking for?

When the Klan came they beat their cars with baseball bats. Again what were they thinking?
Did they expect to start something and have the police dept handle it from there? I don't think they expected the outcome they got. I

I imagine there are some that feel guilty that they hid under cars while their buddies took the bullets. Are they doing this to make their conscious feel better, Who are they trying to place the blame on now? They invited the Klan here? Who's fault is this?

Pastors I think you have to realize that the Lord does not make mistakes. You asked for what you got and now you must live with it.

It's time you ask the Lord to forgive you for your part in this and let it go, or take it to your death and face your maker with it. He is does not respect color.

Thank you, anonymous. You are saying what needs to be said. I was appalled the other day when I read in "Yes Weekly" that writer Jordan Green, a journalist I admire, actually wrote, "Nelson Johnson, a survivor of the Klan/Nazi shooting...." (forgive me for paraphrasing). A SURVIVOR? Yes, he survived, by hiding under a car. He INSTIGATED this sordid event. He picked the fight with the Klan and did not even have the guts to take part in the fray. Nelson Johnson, in my humble opinion, is a coward and a liar. He is keeping this sad tragedy alive for his own self-aggrandizement. If he is actually a minister, he is leading his flock absolutely nowhere.

How many boxes of the records did Nelson Johnson's name appear in ?

Looks to me like the city destroyed his only claim to fame, or his guilt.

And the source is.....Julius Fulmore!

And the source is.....Julius Fulmore!